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The Distance Debate Reignited


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42 minutes ago, GBWarPig said:

Yeah, but if the USGA can't force course conditions like they do at the US Open, then they are going to legislate it out in another fashion. Halting progress for the sake of halting progress seems like a bad business to be in. Embrace the athleticism that today's players have, not fight against it.

The issue is the USGA set up are literally promoting everyone to chase more distance. Widen and firm up the fairways, thin the rough so that flyers are a potential issue. Make being accurate to greens a priority. 

We also have to decide what the purpose of the set up is. Is it to protect something abstract like par? Are we offended when the very best in the world shoot under par? Or is it to make an even competition that is part of an entertainment product?? 

Now, I found the last round of the US open very interesting. But I would not want to watch that every week... Plus it basically eliminated half the field that could not compete on distance.

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1 hour ago, PMookie said:

I know, this isn’t about Bryson, but folks, scores by the bombers were STILL over par. We didn’t have the 20 under that people are scared of. By-the-way, look at the winners on Tour over the last three years. They’re not all “bombers”, and it wasn’t too long ago that a guy hitting the ball 290 off the tee was the king of the sport! Yep, Spieth screwed-up his swing and putting, but he was dominant, and NOT a long hitter. 

I agree, Bryson's win wasn't "news" for the distance debate, its just more of the same data points that they've  been compiling.  But because Bryson is REALLY visible, and because its been 8 months since the Distance Insight Report was issued, and its likely to be 6 more months until the next one comes out, AND because we're in the part of the PGA season where really nobody cares, all the talking heads are making a big deal of it.  And we're following suit, me included.  So to some extent, the current discussion is completely about Bryson.

1 hour ago, GBWarPig said:

Yeah, but if the USGA can't force course conditions like they do at the US Open, then they are going to legislate it out in another fashion. Halting progress for the sake of halting progress seems like a bad business to be in. Embrace the athleticism that today's players have, not fight against it.

The Ruling Bodies (including the R&A) could rein in equipment related distance increases and still embrace athleticism.   Its not necessarily an either/or choice.

Edited by DaveP043

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40 minutes ago, Quigleyd said:

Plus it basically eliminated half the field that could not compete on distance.

The biggest problem with this whole debate is that people don't use facts or truth. Zach finished top 10 at the US open. Below is his driving distance rank on tour. 

648744063_Screenshot2020-09-29150447.jpg.48622ee1760f3221be18c1b745e6f5bc.jpg

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46 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

The biggest problem with this whole debate is that people don't use facts or truth. Zach finished top 10 at the US open. Below is his driving distance rank on tour. 

648744063_Screenshot2020-09-29150447.jpg.48622ee1760f3221be18c1b745e6f5bc.jpg

Zach is an outlier and he had zero chance of winning. There were just not enough strokes to be made up in the greens. 
 

he putted and chipped out of his mind. There was absolutely zero chance he would win.. 

But that is because of the set up. Not the distance issue. The USGA in their ignorance, set up event narrow with thick rough. When it is narrow and thick. Even your most accurate off the tee are going to miss fairways. When that happens the do not have the strength and are too far back to hit something that will hold the green. If it was set up wider. Then maybe he is hitting 8 irons to brysons wedge. Instead of hitting 5 iron out of the rough when Bryson is hitting wedge. I think we would all agree that an 8 iron from the fairway and a wedge from the fairway are not too dissimilar. But a 5 iron from 6 inch rough and a 9 iron from 6 inch rough are worlds apart.

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4 hours ago, jlukes said:

Sure, the scores would be different - but would it really impact how players would finish?  Faster players will still be faster and longer players will still be longer.  If anything, an equipment rollback would further hurt the average to below average hitters on tour.

 

... I am not in favor of an equipment roll back. There are limits in place now so I am OK with where we are. I also agree with you that superior athletes should reap the reward of being superior. If baseball player can run a 3.9 forty and can steal bases at will we certainly would not be considering making the bases longer. My only concern is golf courses are becoming obsolete for the Pro's and the only answer I have is lengthening the course to correspond with the majority of players. Someone like Bryson is a complete outlier, not the norm so he has figured out how to be insanely long but maintain accuracy and I have no problem at all with him dominating. IF the rest of the field starts averaging 350 then we have a real problem but I really don't have an answer other than lengthening the course and adding bunkers/water  or penalizing them with deep rough for missing the fairway. 

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One item Chris mentioned pertained to excessive roll out past carry distance.  I think the PGA stats have both avg. carry and avg total distance but, short of a lot of manual calculations, is there data for avg. roll on various clubs; for individual players and/or for the tour?

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In the past shorter hitters survived and won events by being accurate, good wedge players, and good putters.  Today, the longer hitters are  more accurate that the previous generation long hitters, are good wedge players, and good putters.  Professional golf is now "short hitters need not apply".  The Jim Furyks have moved on, and the Zack Johnsons are about to.  

All of the guys coming up are long hitters by yesterday's stats.  Yes, some are really long, but all are long enough to make old courses obsolete.  I expect the tour average in distance will take a big jump.  It's too late to close the barn door.  

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1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

One item Chris mentioned pertained to excessive roll out past carry distance.  I think the PGA stats have both avg. carry and avg total distance but, short of a lot of manual calculations, is there data for avg. roll on various clubs; for individual players and/or for the tour?

I don’t think so. Lou Stagner did the calculations. 20 yards was the average I think. 

 

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1 hour ago, THEZIPR23 said:

I don’t think so. Lou Stagner did the calculations. 20 yards was the average I think. 

 

That would be interesting data to see.  The distance increases may be as much a factor of rollout as carry distance. Chris made reference to tour event fairway cut heights getting shorter and shorter over the past decades.  

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6 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

The biggest problem with this whole debate is that people don't use facts or truth. Zach finished top 10 at the US open. Below is his driving distance rank on tour. 

648744063_Screenshot2020-09-29150447.jpg.48622ee1760f3221be18c1b745e6f5bc.jpg

Aaaaaaaaaamen!!!!

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I'm not a fan of rolling back equipment. It's clear based on the data collected at the professional and amateur levels that distance is only a "problem" at the higher ranks. I say lock it down where it is and change the course setups.

The distance debate exists because the USGA failed to act in certain areas (golf equipment) while pushing the boundaries in others (agronomy). I think the fact that the USGA failed to close Pandora's box on equipment when they had the chance is well known. What's probably not as well known is the USGA's own influence on turf grasses and course maintenance which (IMO) is a double-edged sword - they've reduced associated maintenance costs (in some areas) while increasing the speed of playing surfaces. 

That last part is key because for all who would argue that courses no longer play as originally intended, I posit this - no course that has seen its grass surfaces replaced will play as originally intended. Modern grasses are nothing like what was used before.

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/imported/zontek-milestones-4-8-11.pdf

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/in-the-race-to-faster-greens-caution-signs-abound-us-open

At this point in time I think the USGA is better off to simply lock everything down where it is and leave it be. 

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lots to go through here so just going to add names of talking points.

@chisag fully agree with bringing back original design of course, the difficult part of this is money, granted these big name courses have it but we are talking some big bucks to adjust even half the holes on a course. I do think this is the most logical approach though.

@PMookie nailed it on the head. Bryson studied. No one had him winning last week because he “isn’t accurate” but he took the tournament down. Granted you still have to play well. The game was still a fantastic product to watch.

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1 hour ago, TR1PTIK said:

I'm not a fan of rolling back equipment. It's clear based on the data collected at the professional and amateur levels that distance is only a "problem" at the higher ranks. I say lock it down where it is and change the course setups.

The distance debate exists because the USGA failed to act in certain areas (golf equipment) while pushing the boundaries in others (agronomy). I think the fact that the USGA failed to close Pandora's box on equipment when they had the chance is well known. What's probably not as well known is the USGA's own influence on turf grasses and course maintenance which (IMO) is a double-edged sword - they've reduced associated maintenance costs (in some areas) while increasing the speed of playing surfaces. 

I find this interesting, and I'm not sure that the "right" path for the USGA should have been.  They are routinely vilified for acting moderately quickly on other equipment-related issues, particularly the groove rule and long putters.  I know anchoring was changed via a RoG chance, but it was still related to equipment.  At the same time, the USGA is vilified for taking a longer-term data driven approach, acting too slowly on distance.  If they HAD acted as quickly as many suggest (with the gift of hindsight) they should have, NONE of us would have the distance advantages that club and ball improvements have allowed.    We don't want that distance rolled back, taken away from us, but if the USGA had acted, we'd never have had it in the first place.  I don't think its quite fair.  

As for advances in the agronomy, certainly the USGA's turfgrass research has had a significant role.  But what's also had a role, looking at this from a historical perspective, are the introduction of irrigation systems and better mowing equipment.  But I agree, improvements in course preparation have definitely allowed courses to mow grass tighter and use less water, leading to significant increases in roll-out.

My conclusion is the same as yours, though.  I hope they Ruling Bodies find ways to limit future distance gains from equipment.  I can accept that the best players in the world will continue to improve, and will continue to explore strategies to score lower, and that those strategies will have less and less in common with the strategies of the past.  I wouldn't encourage any type of bifurcation, I just think that there are too many potential complications for that to work well.  And as with almost all changes, I'm certain that there would be complications that none of us would anticipate, in addition to the ones we can see right now.

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4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I find this interesting, and I'm not sure that the "right" path for the USGA should have been.  They are routinely vilified for acting moderately quickly on other equipment-related issues, particularly the groove rule and long putters.  I know anchoring was changed via a RoG chance, but it was still related to equipment.  At the same time, the USGA is vilified for taking a longer-term data driven approach, acting too slowly on distance.  If they HAD acted as quickly as many suggest (with the gift of hindsight) they should have, NONE of us would have the distance advantages that club and ball improvements have allowed.    We don't want that distance rolled back, taken away from us, but if the USGA had acted, we'd never have had it in the first place.  I don't think its quite fair.  

As for advances in the agronomy, certainly the USGA's turfgrass research has had a significant role.  But what's also had a role, looking at this from a historical perspective, are the introduction of irrigation systems and better mowing equipment.  But I agree, improvements in course preparation have definitely allowed courses to mow grass tighter and use less water, leading to significant increases in roll-out.

My conclusion is the same as yours, though.  I hope they Ruling Bodies find ways to limit future distance gains from equipment.  I can accept that the best players in the world will continue to improve, and will continue to explore strategies to score lower, and that those strategies will have less and less in common with the strategies of the past.  I wouldn't encourage any type of bifurcation, I just think that there are too many potential complications for that to work well.  And as with almost all changes, I'm certain that there would be complications that none of us would anticipate, in addition to the ones we can see right now.

In regard to your first paragraph, you're probably right. My biggest reason for hammering the USGA on equipment is largely due to the ball. The switch from balatas to the modern tour ball was a fairly significant leap which occurred twenty years ago after Tiger won The Open using the Nike Tour Accuracy. While I do want the USGA to use a data-driven approach, they certainly could have reacted sooner to the modern ball which has continued to evolve gradually since mass adoption of the Pro V1 took place in 2000 and 2001.

I also agree with your take on irrigation and mowing equipment, but again those were things helped along by the USGA (admittedly with good intentions).

At the end of the day, we seem to be on the same page. I will add that I do think it would be a mistake for the USGA to let equipment technology make another leap like it did with the golf ball. They need to clamp down on things now and if athletes continue to get better and smarter, well... the USGA is just going to have to deal.

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1 hour ago, TR1PTIK said:

They need to clamp down on things now and if athletes continue to get better and smarter, well... the USGA is just going to have to deal.

The USGA and R&A, Jeff Shackleford, Jack Nicklaus, Golf Course Architects, any many of us old guys (including me) who would love to see a return to the playing strategies of old.  And while I'd love to see it at some level, I'm against the types of changes that would make it happen.

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3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The USGA and R&A, Jeff Shackleford, Jack Nicklaus, Golf Course Architects, any many of us old guys (including me) who would love to see a return to the playing strategies of old.  And while I'd love to see it at some level, I'm against the types of changes that would make it happen.

 

... Well as a young at heart "old person" you can count me out of a return to days of yore. Golf has always been a game of progression and equipment changes as well as Tiger igniting a physical condition revolution. Once golf went down that road the strategies of old were forever in the rear view mirror. "Tiger proofing" golf courses was never going to work. There does come a point of athletes getting too advanced for the game and the way it was originally designed to be played. I have made that argument for NFL football and think they need to widen the field as well as lengthen it and I was glad to see the rules change to protect athletes that when the game was originated, nobody could have dreamed of them being this large, athletic and fast. Without the rule changes the NFL would be lucky to have any starting or even back up QB's make it thru the season if they could be hit low by 290-320lb athletes at full speed in 3 steps as well as defenseless WR's, chop blocks and crack backs. Bryson is proof golf might be heading in that direction and if we have an influx of young 350yd bombers as the norm, the game will just not be the same and changes like very deep rough and more penal bunkers might be needed. But if Bryson is an outlier then he deserves to play the courses at a different level than the rest of the field. 

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17 hours ago, Quigleyd said:

Zach is an outlier and he had zero chance of winning. There were just not enough strokes to be made up in the greens. 
 

he putted and chipped out of his mind. There was absolutely zero chance he would win.. 

But that is because of the set up. Not the distance issue. The USGA in their ignorance, set up event narrow with thick rough. When it is narrow and thick. Even your most accurate off the tee are going to miss fairways. When that happens the do not have the strength and are too far back to hit something that will hold the green. If it was set up wider. Then maybe he is hitting 8 irons to brysons wedge. Instead of hitting 5 iron out of the rough when Bryson is hitting wedge. I think we would all agree that an 8 iron from the fairway and a wedge from the fairway are not too dissimilar. But a 5 iron from 6 inch rough and a 9 iron from 6 inch rough are worlds apart.

Thank you for proving my point. We started with half the field eliminated and now only 7 had a chance. 

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1 hour ago, chisag said:

 Bryson is proof golf might be heading in that direction and if we have an influx of young 350yd bombers as the norm, the game will just not be the same and changes like very deep rough and more penal bunkers might be needed. But if Bryson is an outlier then he deserves to play the courses at a different level than the rest of the field. 

Bryson is just the current face of distance gains based on his win in the US Open.  Bryson isn't an outlier, other than the route he chose to get that distance.  A fair number of guys are just about as long, and if they're not using the same strategy, they'll give it a try pretty soon. 

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

The USGA and R&A, Jeff Shackleford, Jack Nicklaus, Golf Course Architects, any many of us old guys (including me) who would love to see a return to the playing strategies of old.  And while I'd love to see it at some level, I'm against the types of changes that would make it happen.

 

I think there are many changes that you would be for if they were thoughtful and not so single minded. 

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18 minutes ago, Quigleyd said:

I think there are many changes that you would be for if they were thoughtful and not so single minded. 

As far as I'm aware, we're talking in this thread about distance, mainly driving distance, and revising equipment rules to decrease it.  To me, that would be a poor choice, whether its across the board or through bifurcation.  I'm not sure what other kinds of changes are possible, but I'm willing to listen.

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2 hours ago, chisag said:

But if Bryson is an outlier then he deserves to play the courses at a different level than the rest of the field. 

I agree completely.

We saw plenty of guys with balls in the fairway off the tee end up in greenside bunkers and rough. These guys blowing chances to score isnt Bryson's fault, or because courses were made to be Bryson-proof. 

Did Bryson have an advantage when he hit the rough vs when others ended up in the rough? Sure. Bryson is special, so far.

Tiger is the GOAT, change my mind.

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It's nice to want to "protect" classic courses but when there's a 50+ yard gap between the shortest and longest hitters on tour, things like design intent kind of go out the window.

It's easier, much easier, to protect design intent when there's multiple tee boxes that players of differing distances can play off to meet the design intent. It's not the same on Tour. Everyone's playing off the same tee box regardless of their distance.

I'm against bifurcation of any sort. I don't want to see the ball rolled back. I don't want to see equipment regulations changed. We see such a wide variety of winners on Tour every week that although distance is a big advantage, it's not the only thing that counts when it comes to winning golf tournaments.

I think people are making it out to be a bigger problem than it is. I got into an unfortunate argument on Twitter after the US Open when a golf course architect was completely aghast that Wolff and Bryson had Wedges into the 565 yard Par 5 9th hole on Sunday. Wouldn't even accept the fact that a downwind hole with fairways running close to 8 or 9 on the stimp played a big role in that. Bryson hit a wedge from 180 yards. Downwind was a big factor on club selection. The pair of them also both hit the narrow as hell fairway with 375+ yard drives.

If courses or the USGA want to provide stiffer tests, fine. But the idea that the only way to do that is to lengthen courses, narrow fairways, thick rough and firm, fast fairways and greens is patently wrong. Not every course is going to be able to add yardage, and adding yardage hasn't always yielded the desired results. Sometimes you just have to accept that these guys are really good at golf too. It's not like previous generations of players were incapable of overpowering golf courses.

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2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

As far as I'm aware, we're talking in this thread about distance, mainly driving distance, and revising equipment rules to decrease it.  To me, that would be a poor choice, whether its across the board or through bifurcation.  I'm not sure what other kinds of changes are possible, but I'm willing to listen.

Well there is the idea of no change. That is where I stand. If you let the waters settle and stop the arms race. I think you will see distance become less and less important. 

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3 wood ; Callaway Paradym triple diamond 15 degree, Ventus black TR 7x

Apex UW 19 degree, Ventus black TR 8x

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3 minutes ago, FrogginBullfish said:


I think people are making it out to be a bigger problem than it is. I got into an unfortunate argument on Twitter after the US Open when a golf course architect was completely aghast that Wolff and Bryson had Wedges into the 565 yard Par 5 9th hole on Sunday. 
 

So we don't have to change how far the players are hitting the ball,  we just have to change the numbers on the bottom of their clubs?????     I knew we would find a reason loft jacking was bad  🤣

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1 hour ago, Shankster said:

Raise your hand if you want to hit the ball shorter.


 

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I rebuttle with if it gave me lower scores yes! But I don’t think that’s the case for me

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7 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

My conclusion is the same as yours, though.  I hope they Ruling Bodies find ways to limit future distance gains from equipment.  I can accept that the best players in the world will continue to improve, and will continue to explore strategies to score lower, and that those strategies will have less and less in common with the strategies of the past.  I wouldn't encourage any type of bifurcation, I just think that there are too many potential complications for that to work well.  And as with almost all changes, I'm certain that there would be complications that none of us would anticipate, in addition to the ones we can see right now.

 

46 minutes ago, Quigleyd said:

Well there is the idea of no change. That is where I stand. If you let the waters settle and stop the arms race. I think you will see distance become less and less important. 

I'm guessing you didn't read far enough back, what I'd support is essentially freezing equipment-related distance gains where they are now.   To me, that's "no change", to stop things where they are now..  

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17 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 

I'm guessing you didn't read far enough back, what I'd support is essentially freezing equipment-related distance gains where they are now.   To me, that's "no change", to stop things where they are now..  

I tend to agree with the freeze everything now approach. My only concern is that the athletes are going to continue to get faster, stronger, whatever. So are we in this same boat in 20 years? (not that I will care then)

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