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Is this swing theory a thing, or a band-aid?


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10 hours ago, Grand Stranded said:

So I just got back from hitting a bucket at our practice area

Why are you hitting buckets? You're supposed to hit balls! Maybe that is why your swing was out of sync!?! Hehe, couldn't help it. 

In all seriousness though, it makes me wonder if the difference between the two styles of leading with an arm drop or a hip motion could be based on how tight the grip is? I wonder if @chisag @Tom the Golf Nut or @cnosil have any thoughts on this?

I could imagine a tight grip would require an early arm drop because tension in the forearms from a tight grip could limit a natural release of the club. Where a lighter grip is more loose in the forearm allowing a natural release of the club from a hip/body motion starting the swing. 

Like it has been said before, the difference between feel and real can trick even the best of us. I'm glad there are many ways to help people enjoy the game more.

Golf is simple - people are complicated.

5w Taylormade SLDR S 19* - 220yd, Ping G2 5-U - 190-105, Maltby M+ 54* & MG 60* - 95-75, Evnroll ER8, Titleist 816 H1 4h 21*, Maltby 4 Hybrid Iron 24* - 210-200, Callaway XR16 8* - 235 carry

886809507_image1(5).jpeg.56bc697c3b02b1fb00feb8d4b66389bc~2.jpeg

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Why are you hitting buckets? You're supposed to hit balls! Maybe that is why your swing was out of sync!?! Hehe, couldn't help it.  In all seriousness though, it makes me wonder if the difference between the two styles of leading with an arm drop or a hip motion could be based on how tight the grip is? I wonder if [mention=291]chisag[/mention] [mention=77030]Tom the Golf Nut[/mention] or [mention=15174]cnosil[/mention] have any thoughts on this?

I could imagine a tight grip would require an early arm drop because tension in the forearms from a tight grip could limit a natural release of the club. Where a lighter grip is more loose in the forearm allowing a natural release of the club from a hip/body motion starting the swing. 

Like it has been said before, the difference between feel and real can trick even the best of us. I'm glad there are many ways to help people enjoy the game more.

 

I am in no way a swing expert. That said, I don’t think it has anything to do with the grip and everything to do with people incorrectly firing the hips and getting out of sequence and leaving the arms and shoulders behind.

 

I like learning about swing mechanics and think this video from AMG does a good job explaining what I am talking about.

 

 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
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                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
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Since my name was mentioned I will chime in. Typically I leave this type of input to the people that get paid to teach. I will just state what works for me. I start my swing sequence with the arm drop. I want the feeling like I am pulling the club handle straight down. Fractions of a second later I start my forward weight shift and hip rotation. This gives me the best accuracy and distance for my age and body type. If I try to start rotating first then my sequence gets messed up and the ball could go left or right. Sometimes I would feel as though my arms got stuck behind and then would have to come around my body with my arms and the result would be a duck hook. So by working on the arm drop I fixed my inconsistency. 

I use the orange whip which really helps me feel the stages of the swing and shaft loading. Then I try to mimic that feeling on the golf course.

:titleist-small: Driver, TSi 1 S Flex

:cobra-small: 3 wood, Aerojet Max UST Helium Nanocore R Flex

:cobra-small: 5 wood, Aerojet Max UST Helium Nanocore R Flex 

:cobra-small: 7 Wood, Aerojet Max UST Helium Nanocore R Flex 

:cobra-small: 5 Hybrid King Tec MMT R Flex

:cobra-small: Irons, Tour UST Recoil 95 R Flex (6 - Gap)

:cobra-small: Wedges, Snakebite KBS Hi- Rev2.0 54* & 60*

:cobra-small: Agera 35"

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Mike Bender teaches felling like the arms move first and then followed by the hip drive later in the swing.  His Instagram is filled with useful information on how to make this work.  When I drive with my legs first my arms get too far behind my pivot causing all sorts of issues.  When I feel like my arms get a "head start" things sync up much better.  

https://www.instagram.com/mikebendergolf/

Driver - Ping G410 Plus 10.5 - Ping Tour 65 Stiff

4 Wood - Callaway Rogue - Project X Evenflow blue 6.0

Hybrids - Titleist 818 H2 -  3(c-1) and 4(c-4) - Tensei CK Blue 70 stiff

Irons - Callaway Apex  CF 16 5-AW - True Temper XP 95 Steel Stiff

Wedges - Ping Glide 54 SS, 58 TS

Putter - Edel e1 Torque balanced

Indianapolis

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8 hours ago, Buffly said:

Why are you hitting buckets? You're supposed to hit balls! Maybe that is why your swing was out of sync!?! Hehe, couldn't help it. 

In all seriousness though, it makes me wonder if the difference between the two styles of leading with an arm drop or a hip motion could be based on how tight the grip is? I wonder if @chisag @Tom the Golf Nut or @cnosil have any thoughts on this?

I could imagine a tight grip would require an early arm drop because tension in the forearms from a tight grip could limit a natural release of the club. Where a lighter grip is more loose in the forearm allowing a natural release of the club from a hip/body motion starting the swing. 

Like it has been said before, the difference between feel and real can trick even the best of us. I'm glad there are many ways to help people enjoy the game more.

I nope you don't take this the wrong way, because I'm not trying to be snarky. However, at this point I think you're the person here who is refusing to see "the difference between what is real and what isn't".

I'll be honest, I'd never heard of this "arm drop" method until Monday. I'll assume from your comments you hadn't either. That's why I started this thread asking any better players and/or instructors here whether this was a band-aid or not. Since then, we've been shown videos of Justin Rose, the Monte Scheinbloom teaching method, and the YouTube video showing the two very distinctly different ways of starting a downswing. We've also read a player you tagged say he uses this drop method. 

I think maybe it's time you stop talking about "being tricked by the difference between feel and real" and realize this actually is a different, but very viable way to start the downswing. I think by now it's pretty obvious this is the case. I doubt very much a player like @Tom the Golf Nuthas a problem with a "tight grip", and if you took the time to watch the Rose video, he explained very clearly why he does what he does.

 

Driver:          :ping-small: G425 Max 10.5*

Fairway:      :ping-small: G425 Max 14*5* & 17.5*

Hybrids:      :ping-small: G425 Max 22* & 26*

Irons:           :callaway-small: Apex DCB 6-AW

Wedges:      :callaway-small: Jaws Raw Face 54-10

                      :cleveland-small: RTX Zipcore 58-6

Putter:         :EVNROLL:  ER7  34”

                      

                      

 

 

             

             

 

 

 

 

 

              

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Grand Stranded said:

I nope you don't take this the wrong way, because I'm not trying to be snarky. However, at this point I think you're the person here who is refusing to see "the difference between what is real and what isn't".

I'll be honest, I'd never heard of this "arm drop" method until Monday. I'll assume from your comments you hadn't either. That's why I started this thread asking any better players and/or instructors here whether this was a band-aid or not. Since then, we've been shown videos of Justin Rose, the Monte Scheinbloom teaching method, and the YouTube video showing the two very distinctly different ways of starting a downswing. We've also read a player you tagged say he uses this drop method. 

I think maybe it's time you stop talking about "being tricked by the difference between feel and real" and realize this actually is a different, but very viable way to start the downswing. I think by now it's pretty obvious this is the case. I doubt very much a player like @Tom the Golf Nuthas a problem with a "tight grip", and if you took the time to watch the Rose video, he explained very clearly why he does what he does.

 

You are correct. I left that part out of my post. I do not have a tight grip on the club. A tight grip will unintentionally close the club face during the swing. I was told many years ago to grip the club like you are holding a bird in your hands. Tight enough to prevent it from flying away and not tight enough to kill it or break some bones.  Weird but it worked and I still remember it!

:titleist-small: Driver, TSi 1 S Flex

:cobra-small: 3 wood, Aerojet Max UST Helium Nanocore R Flex

:cobra-small: 5 wood, Aerojet Max UST Helium Nanocore R Flex 

:cobra-small: 7 Wood, Aerojet Max UST Helium Nanocore R Flex 

:cobra-small: 5 Hybrid King Tec MMT R Flex

:cobra-small: Irons, Tour UST Recoil 95 R Flex (6 - Gap)

:cobra-small: Wedges, Snakebite KBS Hi- Rev2.0 54* & 60*

:cobra-small: Agera 35"

image.png Ultralight 14-way Cart Bag

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2 hours ago, Grand Stranded said:

I nope you don't take this the wrong way, because I'm not trying to be snarky. However, at this point I think you're the person here who is refusing to see "the difference between what is real and what isn't".

I'll be honest, I'd never heard of this "arm drop" method until Monday. I'll assume from your comments you hadn't either. That's why I started this thread asking any better players and/or instructors here whether this was a band-aid or not. Since then, we've been shown videos of Justin Rose, the Monte Scheinbloom teaching method, and the YouTube video showing the two very distinctly different ways of starting a downswing. We've also read a player you tagged say he uses this drop method. 

I think maybe it's time you stop talking about "being tricked by the difference between feel and real" and realize this actually is a different, but very viable way to start the downswing. I think by now it's pretty obvious this is the case. I doubt very much a player like @Tom the Golf Nuthas a problem with a "tight grip", and if you took the time to watch the Rose video, he explained very clearly why he does what he does.

 

I am only furthering the conversation. Tiger Woods and Butch Harmon video way back is where I get the "difference between feel and real" so, I think that's a pretty credible source. 

I believe that there are many ways to swing. My trigger is lower body and others is upper body. Both methods still rotate the hips, both still have the hands infront of the head on irons at impact. 

I only added the part about grip to see if anyone had a comment on that because I like to learn from others all the time. 

Golf is simple - people are complicated.

5w Taylormade SLDR S 19* - 220yd, Ping G2 5-U - 190-105, Maltby M+ 54* & MG 60* - 95-75, Evnroll ER8, Titleist 816 H1 4h 21*, Maltby 4 Hybrid Iron 24* - 210-200, Callaway XR16 8* - 235 carry

886809507_image1(5).jpeg.56bc697c3b02b1fb00feb8d4b66389bc~2.jpeg

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I've said before, I'm no expert, but I do read a bunch of geeky stuff.  From what I've read, k-vest traces of really good players are generally very similar.  In transition, the everything starts moving at very nearly the same time, with the hip rotation generally starting very slightly ahead of the rest.  Hip rotation reaches its max first, and starts slowing down, then chest rotation peaks, then lead arm, and finally the club rotation reaches its peak angular velocity right at impact.  But back to transition, it all starts at nearly the same instant, with the hips leading by a miniscule amount.  If a player's tendency is to cast from the top, he probably needs to FEEL the hip rotation leading.  For a different player whose hips may get too far ahead early, he may need to FEEL the arm drop first.  Neither feel is wrong, neither one is a band-aid,  each one is a tool towards achieving the best possible sequencing.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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13 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I've said before, I'm no expert, but I do read a bunch of geeky stuff.  From what I've read, k-vest traces of really good players are generally very similar.  In transition, the everything starts moving at very nearly the same time, with the hip rotation generally starting very slightly ahead of the rest.  Hip rotation reaches its max first, and starts slowing down, then chest rotation peaks, then lead arm, and finally the club rotation reaches its peak angular velocity right at impact.  But back to transition, it all starts at nearly the same instant, with the hips leading by a miniscule amount.  If a player's tendency is to cast from the top, he probably needs to FEEL the hip rotation leading.  For a different player whose hips may get too far ahead early, he may need to FEEL the arm drop first.  Neither feel is wrong, neither one is a band-aid,  each one is a tool towards achieving the best possible sequencing.

I'm curious, did you watch the video @Chip Strokesposted for me in this thread? Christina Ricci is showing you two very different ways to start the downswing. I'm not sure the word "feel" isn't applicable here, they seem to be two distinctly different moves.

I've read a lot of your posts, and have a lot of respect for your opinions. If you've watched the video I'm talking about, I'd be really interested in why you don't see what I'm seeing.

Thanks, looking forward to your response... 

Driver:          :ping-small: G425 Max 10.5*

Fairway:      :ping-small: G425 Max 14*5* & 17.5*

Hybrids:      :ping-small: G425 Max 22* & 26*

Irons:           :callaway-small: Apex DCB 6-AW

Wedges:      :callaway-small: Jaws Raw Face 54-10

                      :cleveland-small: RTX Zipcore 58-6

Putter:         :EVNROLL:  ER7  34”

                      

                      

 

 

             

             

 

 

 

 

 

              

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Grand Stranded said:

I'm curious, did you watch the video @Chip Strokesposted for me in this thread? Christina Ricci is showing you two very different ways to start the downswing. I'm not sure the word "feel" isn't applicable here, they seem to be two distinctly different moves.

I've read a lot of your posts, and have a lot of respect for your opinions. If you've watched the video I'm talking about, I'd be really interested in why you don't see what I'm seeing.

Thanks, looking forward to your response... 

I think she's able to demonstrate and exaggerate minor variations in the motion, especially the very exaggerated slow motion movements.  But the full-speed swings look fairly similar.  Just now watching the "hands drop" swing in slo-mo (2:15 or so in the video), her hips are moving at least as early as her hands, no matter what she's feeling.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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On 10/9/2020 at 12:43 PM, DaveP043 said:

For a different player whose hips may get too far ahead early, he may need to FEEL the arm drop first.  Neither feel is wrong, neither one is a band-aid,  each one is a tool towards achieving the best possible sequencing.

Thank you, @DaveP043.

In high school (late '80s), my pro used to work with me by telling me to start my downswing by pulling with my left hand because I unwound my hips too fast.  He also told me that this is something that he was working on with me.  He said that if any of the members (I caddied at this course) asked me what I was working on, I should tell them that this was to fix my problem.  Not theirs.

 

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3 Wood (13.5*) - :titleist-small: 980F 
4 Wood (18*) - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Hybrid (19*) - :taylormade-small: RBZ
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