Is this swing theory a thing, or a band-aid?

[Kenny B 34,297]

17 minutes ago, Grand Stranded said:

Some very interesting comments, thanks guys!

I googled "rotate or drop" last night, just to see if there was anything on the internet with instructors talking about this subject. I found a video right away that explains the two methods(?) really well, and even shows each swing in super slow motion.

The problem is I don't know how to imbed a link or video, so I'm hoping maybe someone who I know does will do it for me? @Rickp @Kenny B @SlowNLow @dlow206 or @Buffly?

It's on YouTube, I googled rotate or drop, and found a series of videos by a female instructor named Cristina Ricci. The series is called Make More Pars and the video is titled "Drop hands or rotate during downswing".

Thanks, fellas.  I'd appreciate anyone's help posting the video.

Just click on the web address of the YouTube video and copy.  Paste it in your Reply.  Easy; Peasy

[cnosil 26,382]

here ya go [mention=86304]Grand Stranded[/mention]
 
 

Found this Instagram post as well. Seems to describe what your instructor told you.

[Kenny B 34,297]

13 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Found this Instagram post as well. Seems to describe what your instructor told you.

 

 

 

 

Monte references Rose's move a lot.  I like it, but I have to "aggressively" rotate as Rose says or I block it to the right.  Some days are not as "aggressive" as others.  

[cnosil 26,382]

Monte references Rose's move a lot.  I like it, but I have to "aggressively" rotate as Rose says or I block it to the right.  Some days are not as "aggressive" as others.  

No single way; Have to do what is right for you.

[TR1PTIK 3,601]

Not much to add at this point. Multiple ways to swing the club and it sounds like your sequence and timing got out of whack. What the pro at that course told you is what a lot of pros would likely recommend if they saw the same thing.

As someone else briefly mentioned, it's a matter of feel vs. real. You need to feel like you start with the hands and arms (I've been told the same thing in the past). Mark Crossfield did a good video about this years ago as well and I can never seem to find it for reference, but basically he suggested that you want to feel like you're trying to put both hands in your right pocket (for right-handed players), rotate, then finish. It worked wonders for me at the time and I still rehearse that motion when my swing gets out of sync.

[Grand Stranded 3,203]

So I just got back from hitting a bucket at our practice area. I'm becoming more and more used to this "feeling" or whatever it is, LOL.

I've noticed one VERY big benefit for me since I started doing this on Monday, and it's that I'm really getting the sense of pressing down into the ground with my feet on my downswing, which is something I'd lost trying to rotate more. With the old move, I felt like they were either sliding or spinning out of a shot. The change in ball flight is night and day. I'm now hitting a nice high trajectory with a hint of a draw like I used to, and I've gotten my old distances back.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not 100% comfortable with this yet, it's a very different feeling. I almost feel afraid that the shaft is so low and parallel to the ground it's never going to get to the ball, and yet impact is perfect. One thing is certain though, after weeks of weak, inconsistent iron shots, I'm loving what I'm seeing. It's so nice to go hit balls trying to ingrain something that's working instead of searching for something that does.

[cnosil 26,382]

So I just got back from hitting a bucket at our practice area. I'm becoming more and more used to this "feeling" or whatever it is, LOL.
I've noticed one VERY big benefit for me since I started doing this on Monday, and it's that I'm really getting the sense of pressing down into the ground with my feet on my downswing, which is something I'd lost trying to rotate more. With the old move, I felt like they were either sliding or spinning out of a shot. The change in ball flight is night and day. I'm now hitting a nice high trajectory with a hint of a draw like I used to, and I've gotten my old distances back.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not 100% comfortable with this yet, it's a very different feeling. I almost feel afraid that the shaft is so low and parallel to the ground it's never going to get to the ball, and yet impact is perfect. One thing is certain though, after weeks of weak, inconsistent iron shots, I'm loving what I'm seeing. It's so nice to go hit balls trying to ingrain something that's working instead of searching for something that does.

Great to hear, sometimes we just get ourselves out of sequence and need to get our swings looked at by a pro.

[Kenny B 34,297]

57 minutes ago, Grand Stranded said:

So I just got back from hitting a bucket at our practice area. I'm becoming more and more used to this "feeling" or whatever it is, LOL.

I've noticed one VERY big benefit for me since I started doing this on Monday, and it's that I'm really getting the sense of pressing down into the ground with my feet on my downswing, which is something I'd lost trying to rotate more. With the old move, I felt like they were either sliding or spinning out of a shot. The change in ball flight is night and day. I'm now hitting a nice high trajectory with a hint of a draw like I used to, and I've gotten my old distances back.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not 100% comfortable with this yet, it's a very different feeling. I almost feel afraid that the shaft is so low and parallel to the ground it's never going to get to the ball, and yet impact is perfect. One thing is certain though, after weeks of weak, inconsistent iron shots, I'm loving what I'm seeing. It's so nice to go hit balls trying to ingrain something that's working instead of searching for something that does.

Happy to hear that it's working out.  The pro who knows your swing is the best one to go to.  We will be your cheerleaders!!

[HardcoreLooper 5,534]

8 hours ago, Grand Stranded said:

I'm not 100% comfortable with this yet, it's a very different feeling. I almost feel afraid that the shaft is so low and parallel to the ground it's never going to get to the ball, and yet impact is perfect.

My daughter's teacher said this to her once, and I say the same thing to the kids I work with all the time:

"If the wrong swing feels right to you, then the right swing is going to feel wrong for a while."

 

[Grand Stranded 3,203]

11 hours ago, cnosil said:

Found this Instagram post as well. Seems to describe what your instructor told you.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for posting this. It's so good... I must've watched it 20x today.

 

[Buffly 563]

10 hours ago, Grand Stranded said:

So I just got back from hitting a bucket at our practice area

Why are you hitting buckets? You're supposed to hit balls! Maybe that is why your swing was out of sync!?! Hehe, couldn't help it. 

In all seriousness though, it makes me wonder if the difference between the two styles of leading with an arm drop or a hip motion could be based on how tight the grip is? I wonder if @chisag @Tom the Golf Nut or @cnosil have any thoughts on this?

I could imagine a tight grip would require an early arm drop because tension in the forearms from a tight grip could limit a natural release of the club. Where a lighter grip is more loose in the forearm allowing a natural release of the club from a hip/body motion starting the swing. 

Like it has been said before, the difference between feel and real can trick even the best of us. I'm glad there are many ways to help people enjoy the game more.

[cnosil 26,382]

Why are you hitting buckets? You're supposed to hit balls! Maybe that is why your swing was out of sync!?! Hehe, couldn't help it.  In all seriousness though, it makes me wonder if the difference between the two styles of leading with an arm drop or a hip motion could be based on how tight the grip is? I wonder if [mention=291]chisag[/mention] [mention=77030]Tom the Golf Nut[/mention] or [mention=15174]cnosil[/mention] have any thoughts on this?

I could imagine a tight grip would require an early arm drop because tension in the forearms from a tight grip could limit a natural release of the club. Where a lighter grip is more loose in the forearm allowing a natural release of the club from a hip/body motion starting the swing. 

Like it has been said before, the difference between feel and real can trick even the best of us. I'm glad there are many ways to help people enjoy the game more.

 

I am in no way a swing expert. That said, I don’t think it has anything to do with the grip and everything to do with people incorrectly firing the hips and getting out of sequence and leaving the arms and shoulders behind.

 

I like learning about swing mechanics and think this video from AMG does a good job explaining what I am talking about.

 

 

[Tom the Golf Nut 8,753]

Since my name was mentioned I will chime in. Typically I leave this type of input to the people that get paid to teach. I will just state what works for me. I start my swing sequence with the arm drop. I want the feeling like I am pulling the club handle straight down. Fractions of a second later I start my forward weight shift and hip rotation. This gives me the best accuracy and distance for my age and body type. If I try to start rotating first then my sequence gets messed up and the ball could go left or right. Sometimes I would feel as though my arms got stuck behind and then would have to come around my body with my arms and the result would be a duck hook. So by working on the arm drop I fixed my inconsistency. 

I use the orange whip which really helps me feel the stages of the swing and shaft loading. Then I try to mimic that feeling on the golf course.

[mooremikea 462]

Mike Bender teaches felling like the arms move first and then followed by the hip drive later in the swing.  His Instagram is filled with useful information on how to make this work.  When I drive with my legs first my arms get too far behind my pivot causing all sorts of issues.  When I feel like my arms get a "head start" things sync up much better.  

https://www.instagram.com/mikebendergolf/

[Grand Stranded 3,203]

8 hours ago, Buffly said:

Why are you hitting buckets? You're supposed to hit balls! Maybe that is why your swing was out of sync!?! Hehe, couldn't help it. 

In all seriousness though, it makes me wonder if the difference between the two styles of leading with an arm drop or a hip motion could be based on how tight the grip is? I wonder if @chisag @Tom the Golf Nut or @cnosil have any thoughts on this?

I could imagine a tight grip would require an early arm drop because tension in the forearms from a tight grip could limit a natural release of the club. Where a lighter grip is more loose in the forearm allowing a natural release of the club from a hip/body motion starting the swing. 

Like it has been said before, the difference between feel and real can trick even the best of us. I'm glad there are many ways to help people enjoy the game more.

I nope you don't take this the wrong way, because I'm not trying to be snarky. However, at this point I think you're the person here who is refusing to see "the difference between what is real and what isn't".

I'll be honest, I'd never heard of this "arm drop" method until Monday. I'll assume from your comments you hadn't either. That's why I started this thread asking any better players and/or instructors here whether this was a band-aid or not. Since then, we've been shown videos of Justin Rose, the Monte Scheinbloom teaching method, and the YouTube video showing the two very distinctly different ways of starting a downswing. We've also read a player you tagged say he uses this drop method. 

I think maybe it's time you stop talking about "being tricked by the difference between feel and real" and realize this actually is a different, but very viable way to start the downswing. I think by now it's pretty obvious this is the case. I doubt very much a player like @Tom the Golf Nuthas a problem with a "tight grip", and if you took the time to watch the Rose video, he explained very clearly why he does what he does.

 

[Tom the Golf Nut 8,753]

8 minutes ago, Grand Stranded said:

I nope you don't take this the wrong way, because I'm not trying to be snarky. However, at this point I think you're the person here who is refusing to see "the difference between what is real and what isn't".

I'll be honest, I'd never heard of this "arm drop" method until Monday. I'll assume from your comments you hadn't either. That's why I started this thread asking any better players and/or instructors here whether this was a band-aid or not. Since then, we've been shown videos of Justin Rose, the Monte Scheinbloom teaching method, and the YouTube video showing the two very distinctly different ways of starting a downswing. We've also read a player you tagged say he uses this drop method. 

I think maybe it's time you stop talking about "being tricked by the difference between feel and real" and realize this actually is a different, but very viable way to start the downswing. I think by now it's pretty obvious this is the case. I doubt very much a player like @Tom the Golf Nuthas a problem with a "tight grip", and if you took the time to watch the Rose video, he explained very clearly why he does what he does.

 

You are correct. I left that part out of my post. I do not have a tight grip on the club. A tight grip will unintentionally close the club face during the swing. I was told many years ago to grip the club like you are holding a bird in your hands. Tight enough to prevent it from flying away and not tight enough to kill it or break some bones.  Weird but it worked and I still remember it!

[Buffly 563]

2 hours ago, Grand Stranded said:

I nope you don't take this the wrong way, because I'm not trying to be snarky. However, at this point I think you're the person here who is refusing to see "the difference between what is real and what isn't".

I'll be honest, I'd never heard of this "arm drop" method until Monday. I'll assume from your comments you hadn't either. That's why I started this thread asking any better players and/or instructors here whether this was a band-aid or not. Since then, we've been shown videos of Justin Rose, the Monte Scheinbloom teaching method, and the YouTube video showing the two very distinctly different ways of starting a downswing. We've also read a player you tagged say he uses this drop method. 

I think maybe it's time you stop talking about "being tricked by the difference between feel and real" and realize this actually is a different, but very viable way to start the downswing. I think by now it's pretty obvious this is the case. I doubt very much a player like @Tom the Golf Nuthas a problem with a "tight grip", and if you took the time to watch the Rose video, he explained very clearly why he does what he does.

 

I am only furthering the conversation. Tiger Woods and Butch Harmon video way back is where I get the "difference between feel and real" so, I think that's a pretty credible source. 

I believe that there are many ways to swing. My trigger is lower body and others is upper body. Both methods still rotate the hips, both still have the hands infront of the head on irons at impact. 

I only added the part about grip to see if anyone had a comment on that because I like to learn from others all the time. 

[DaveP043 5,749]

I've said before, I'm no expert, but I do read a bunch of geeky stuff.  From what I've read, k-vest traces of really good players are generally very similar.  In transition, the everything starts moving at very nearly the same time, with the hip rotation generally starting very slightly ahead of the rest.  Hip rotation reaches its max first, and starts slowing down, then chest rotation peaks, then lead arm, and finally the club rotation reaches its peak angular velocity right at impact.  But back to transition, it all starts at nearly the same instant, with the hips leading by a miniscule amount.  If a player's tendency is to cast from the top, he probably needs to FEEL the hip rotation leading.  For a different player whose hips may get too far ahead early, he may need to FEEL the arm drop first.  Neither feel is wrong, neither one is a band-aid,  each one is a tool towards achieving the best possible sequencing.

[Grand Stranded 3,203]

13 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I've said before, I'm no expert, but I do read a bunch of geeky stuff.  From what I've read, k-vest traces of really good players are generally very similar.  In transition, the everything starts moving at very nearly the same time, with the hip rotation generally starting very slightly ahead of the rest.  Hip rotation reaches its max first, and starts slowing down, then chest rotation peaks, then lead arm, and finally the club rotation reaches its peak angular velocity right at impact.  But back to transition, it all starts at nearly the same instant, with the hips leading by a miniscule amount.  If a player's tendency is to cast from the top, he probably needs to FEEL the hip rotation leading.  For a different player whose hips may get too far ahead early, he may need to FEEL the arm drop first.  Neither feel is wrong, neither one is a band-aid,  each one is a tool towards achieving the best possible sequencing.

I'm curious, did you watch the video @Chip Strokesposted for me in this thread? Christina Ricci is showing you two very different ways to start the downswing. I'm not sure the word "feel" isn't applicable here, they seem to be two distinctly different moves.

I've read a lot of your posts, and have a lot of respect for your opinions. If you've watched the video I'm talking about, I'd be really interested in why you don't see what I'm seeing.

Thanks, looking forward to your response... 

[DaveP043 5,749]

50 minutes ago, Grand Stranded said:

I'm curious, did you watch the video @Chip Strokesposted for me in this thread? Christina Ricci is showing you two very different ways to start the downswing. I'm not sure the word "feel" isn't applicable here, they seem to be two distinctly different moves.

I've read a lot of your posts, and have a lot of respect for your opinions. If you've watched the video I'm talking about, I'd be really interested in why you don't see what I'm seeing.

Thanks, looking forward to your response... 

I think she's able to demonstrate and exaggerate minor variations in the motion, especially the very exaggerated slow motion movements.  But the full-speed swings look fairly similar.  Just now watching the "hands drop" swing in slo-mo (2:15 or so in the video), her hips are moving at least as early as her hands, no matter what she's feeling.