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fixyurdivot

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I'm currently reading Tom's book "The Search for the Perfect Golf Club" - a really good read thus far, particularly if your a technical detail geek like myself.  I've heard of him over the years and very early in my time with the forum, one of our members suggested his irons when I was searching for my PE2 replacements.  I can honestly say that I've never run across anyone playing his sticks. His website shows a pretty large population of club fitters around the globe that fit for his products.  Anyone on the forum currently or previously playing his products?  

Initially I saw that Wishon Golf was located in Durango, CO and that got me excited as it's not too far out of the way to travel in route to AZ.  But I see that Wishon sold his business to Diamond Golf in West Sussex in 2016.... bummer.  Does anyone know where the Wishon products are made?

 

 

:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

:EVNROLL: ER5v Putter  (Evnroll ER5v Official Review)

:odyssey-small: AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Currently Under Product Test)

 

 

 

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My personal opinion, he's always had a cult type following of fans.  I read the book many years ago before I started learning about clubs.  It was interesting to me at the time.   I reached out at that time to one of his fitters in our area, who was ranked among the best in the state.   I went for a fitting (at his home garage studio) he was a nice guy and spent a lot of time with me during the fitting, and built two clubs for me a 7 iron and wedge.  I didn't love either one and I didn't see the value in them compared to a set of PING's I was looking at at the same time.

I kind of turn a deaf ear to everyone who says he's the gospel when it comes to club tech and knowledge.  I have spoken to several other club builders and R&D guys who dispute a lot of his beliefs or maybe a better way of saying it is that, his thoughts haven't kept up with current and modern equipment. 

I have no idea where or what he's doing now, and not must interest in knowing personally. 

:ping-small: G430 Max 10K 

:titelist-small: TSiR1 15.0 Aldlia Ascent 60g

:titelist-small: TSR2 18.0 PX Aldila Ascent 6og

:titelist-small: TSi1 20 Aldila Ascent Shafts R

:titelist-small: T350 5-GW SteelFiber I80 

:titelist-small: SM10 48F/54M and58K

:ping-small: S159 48S/52S/56W/60B

:scotty-cameron-1: Select 5.5 Flowback 35" 

:titelist-small: ProV1  Play number 12

 

 

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Tom is basically retired and as you mentioned, has sold his business over to Diamond Golf in the UK.  He said he was going to continue to do consulting work on the designs but not handle the day to day business operations anymore.  Honestly, I hope he's not consulting with the design because the last few designs they have put out haven't been very good looking.  The putter line is absolutely cheap box set looking.  The new EQ1-NX irons are pretty decent and well designed but they haven't really come out with another major driver design since the 919thi.  The SHPR driver also looks decent but is a small, 435cc driver with a higher COG and more spin designed to work the ball more.  I can't imagine there being much demand for a product like that.

The shaft bend profile database program also died and hasn't been updated in close to a decade.  Tom posted a long time ago that they would be continuing to work on it but that never happened.

Tom definitely had a wealth of knowledge back in the day but overall I also believe he isn't keeping current with modern club design.  There really isn't anyone picking up the reigns either and I'm predicting the brand will all but vanish in another 5 years or so.

 

My bag is a revolving door!

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I golfed with a few people using new Wishon sets this year and they really like them. It's really all about the fitting and trying them out. Wishon's hybrids and players irons seem to be the favorites among his lineup. I too have read his book and liked it. I would say keep your mind open about golf equipment. I wouldn't necessarily limit my search to strictly Wishon but they may be a good starting place. Wishon clubs are good and are probably cheaper now than what the big OEMs would get for a set of clubs. Regarding technology, I don't think a properly fit set of Wishon's would be inferior to any other popular clubs.

1 hour ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

I have spoken to several other club builders and R&D guys who dispute a lot of his beliefs or maybe a better way of saying it is that, his thoughts haven't kept up with current and modern equipment. 

I have yet to hear or see anything that can specifically debunk his or Maltby's methods. Their methods are logical and simple and also rely on hard data like any other method. The only thing that has changed since he wrote his last book is iron lofts have gotten strong and iron faces continue to get hotter. However, none of the changes in golf equipment over the last decade have changed any of the fundamental characteristics of a proper fitting.

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I've been gaming them since I joined the forum. I love playing them and did a bit of a review of mine this year for my 3 year anniversary of joining the forum. I'm not the only one who games them either we have a few who do here on the forum. I think there are two other than me.

I enjoyed the fitting I went in knowing what I wanted because I had an idea of what I wanted but he fit me to the shafts and we picked out the two sets of irons that were what I wanted. They have held up phenomenally well for 3 years gaming them nearly weekly and sometimes more than once a week.

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I'm gonna follow this topic as I have just this week gone thru three separate fitting appointments with a local guy here in town (been around since the 90's).   I am pretty positive that I am going to be fitted with some Wishon heads, altho not entirely sure which model. I hit his personal set, which were pretty spot on to my fitting profile, and was adding 15-25+ yards per club. As I keep telling my fitter, "I don't know what I don't know, so enlighten me" as I've been out of the game for 20 years.  That said, I've never played "name" clubs, so I don't know any different, but from hitting my Adams Ideatech A40sr 7i 130y to his Wishon 575 7i 165yds I was sold on Tom's design. And yes, I know it's much more than just the head. 

Looking forward to future comments.

  

PXG 0811 9° w Mitsubishi Diamana Blue Shaft

Wishon Single Length 6-AW w/ Veylix Alpina Wildeye shafts

Wishon 929 4w/ Acer 7w /11w w/ LAGP Reign Silver Shafts

Wishon 775HS 27° Hybrid

Taylormade MG Hi-Toe 54° / Taylormade MG Hi-Toe 58° 

Sub70 Sycamore 03 Mallet

Bag Boy Chiller Cart Bag / Bag Boy Nitron Cart 

CaddyTek Caddyview V2 

State Director  (NM)  Bugles Across America - Proudly and Humbly Sounding Live Taps for our Nations Hero's. 

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I had a 919 driver, 3 wood and Scor wedges made up for me about 7 years ago by a local fitter.  The driver worked as good or better at the time than any other I had tried.  My swing eventually grew out of the shaft.

When my kids started playing I went to the same fitter and had the driver head reshafted for my oldest daughter that was twelve.  Had both girls fitted for maltby irons and hybrids I had not heard of before.  Both girls still play the irons and hybrids.  My youngest daughter started playing the Wishon driver this year with great results.

The fitter I used would buy multiple sets of previous generation heads at a good deal (same with aftermarket shafts) and passed it along to me.  Was able to get both sets for the girls for less than cheap box sets would cost and they got very high quality equipment.  If budget was a concern I would go this route again for myself and the kids.

Driver - Ping G410

Woods - Callaway Rogue 5 wood

Hybrid - Titleist TS2 21 degree

Irons - Taylormade P790 5-PW

Wedges - Taylormade MG3 50, 54, 58, SM9 60

Putter - Mizuno Black Carbon BC3

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  • 3 months later...
On 10/8/2020 at 9:59 AM, 03trdblack said:

Tom is basically retired and as you mentioned, has sold his business over to Diamond Golf in the UK.  He said he was going to continue to do consulting work on the designs but not handle the day to day business operations anymore.  Honestly, I hope he's not consulting with the design because the last few designs they have put out haven't been very good looking.  The putter line is absolutely cheap box set looking.  The new EQ1-NX irons are pretty decent and well designed but they haven't really come out with another major driver design since the 919thi.  The SHPR driver also looks decent but is a small, 435cc driver with a higher COG and more spin designed to work the ball more.  I can't imagine there being much demand for a product like that.

The shaft bend profile database program also died and hasn't been updated in close to a decade.  Tom posted a long time ago that they would be continuing to work on it but that never happened.

Tom definitely had a wealth of knowledge back in the day but overall I also believe he isn't keeping current with modern club design.  There really isn't anyone picking up the reigns either and I'm predicting the brand will all but vanish in another 5 years or so.

 

His driver hasn’t changed other than a paint stripe because tech HAS NOT changed. Same shafts same heads. The rules are there. Spec rules decide it. No change in rules. No change in clubs. No one can make a better driver head than is being made. Wishon has the foundry’s check the specs more often. Since he isn’t forging a million head I’m sure it’s easier to make his club head better. I just bought the eq1-Nx single length set to replace a 10year old set of irons. The 4 hybrid sells the set.
Also Clubfitters aren’t salesmen and Clubmakers aren’t there to help them. Although companies like wishon would do anything to help they don’t have the Titleist bank to advertise to get fitted (he did write 11 books 2 best sellers on the subject- but new players aren’t reading those) It also goes against the business model of the industry:  to buy another set of irons(your 5th)  Because you suck with this set(your 4th- but these are ping?!) 

For those that havent seen wishon have you seen muira at the local course? On the pga? I doubt you’ve seen either. Think on that one. 
Email Tom wishon he will help fit you. He is easy to contact. 
his clubs head aren’t great to look at. He designs them for golf. Not to look at. 
also on the fitting my new set is single length so you can tell which club is which from there weight. My other set is tip matched. You can hit  ball and it feels the same no matter the club. 9 iron and 4 iron exact same feel. Same swing weight same tip flex. Only a fitter can do that. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have a great deal of respect for Tom and his knowledge.  Problem is that much of the technology has changed since he has retired and the years before he retired he wasn't really doing a lot of research (or it didn't seem like it) other than the Sterling Single Length irons which were really designed by Jaacob Bowden and Tom helped out with.

 

His 919THI driver was excellent.  At one time it was about as great of a driver head as you could find.  High MOI head with a classic shape.  Kind of a better version to the Ping G400 Max as it didn't launch and spin as high as the G400 Max but was as forgiving (I own the 425Max and it's not as forgiving, but spins less and launches lower than the G400 Max). 

 

I did have problems with the face of the 919THI cracking after about 18 months of use.  I was hitting a lot of balls with the driver back then, but almost on cue, the face would crack on 18 months.  They would always replace the head free of charge and apologize.  However when they went to the longer hosel in the 919THI to help with flattening out the lie angle if you choose to do so, it completely changed the CoG of the head.  The head felt completely different to me.  Very tinny, sounded different and didn't perform nearly as well.  I had a friend measure the CoG on the GolfMechanix CoG machine and he said it had the CoG the highest up on the face and the closest to the heel of any driver they had measured.  I didn't have the old models of the 919THI to give my friend to measure, but I firmly believe that the long neck design altered the CoG and it changed the club's CoG.  And it went from being arguably the best driver head on the market to being a head more suited for hackers.

 

I had Tom's 555M blades.  Some of the best blades I had ever hit.  Unfortunately I hit so many balls with them the grooves were shot on a few of the irons and he discontinued making the model.  It's a shame because I think he really had a great design there.

 

His 929 fairway woods were excellent.  I just tend to have misses towards the toe and the 929 weren't as forgiving off the toe as I hoped.  But I could hit some bombs with the 929 fairway metals.

 

I had the 575MMC irons.  Some of the best feeling irons you'll find on the market, but the low bounce angles combined with the grind just didn't suit me.  Others could like it.

 

I did like his S2S steel iron shafts.  His graphite shafts just didn't work for me.

 

Tom was anti-'jacking up the lofts' with the irons.  He preferred to keep driver shafts under 45 inches long.  I am a believer that the MOI matching is something that is very much in the right direction and is far superior to swingweight and swingweight matching.  However, I think it needs to be researched further as to how much MOI matching alters launch and spin.  My gut tells me there is something better out there with regards to the heft of the club and fitting that for the golfer to improve performance.  Unfortunately Tom is the only one who had the cajones, brains and determination to help come out with MOI matching.  He's retired now and none of the other manufacturers are going to look into it anytime soon.

 

 

3JACK

Author of Pro Golf Synopsis. The Moneyball approach to golf strategy and analysis.Driver: Wishon 919THI, 10° loft, UST Mamiya VTS Red 7x, 44-3/8” long, 2,825 kg/cm^2 MOIGONZO WOOD: confidential2-Hybrid: Mizuno Fli-HiCLK, 17° loft, 40-7/8" KBS Tour Hybrid shaft (stiff)3-Hybrid: Mizuno Fli-HiCLK, 20° loft, 40" KBS Tour Hybrid shaft (stiff)4-6 iron: Wishon 575MMC (CB)7-PW: Wishon 575MMC (MB)SW: Edel Golf driver grind, 52° loft, 16° bounce, Nippon WV 125 shaft.LW: Edel Golf Digger Grind, 60° loft, 27° bounce, Nippon WV 125 ShaftPutter: Edel Golf Columbia Custom Made, 35" long, 72° lie angle, 3° loft. Ball: Titleist Pro V1xGrips: PURE Grips P2 Wrap (red)Shoes: FootJoy Dry-Joy (black, size 14)3Jack's Golf Blog - http://3jack.blogspot.com

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  • 2 months later...

Well, I love my Wishon 555's, both blade and cavity (have two sets). Our course can get really wet so I use the cavities for the slightly wider sole otherwise back to the muscleback.  I have at least a dozen sets of irons that I can play but always come back to the 555's. Haven't found anything that feels better. The lofts are not jacked up which I prefer. I want my PW to be 48 (spec was 47 so bent it to 48). My wife up until this year used the 550C irons. Hers are pretty beat up looking now, and she just got the Srixon Z785 and they are a nice combo with the modus 3 120S shaft. I made a 4 and 7 wood for myself that were low profile and hi cor but my wife tried them and i didn't get them back.

Driver Titleist 910 with KuroKage R or Cleveland Classic

3 wd Titleist 910 with Diamana

7 wd Snake eyes with Irod

23 and 28 Adams Idea Pro Gold Hybrids with nv protos

Irons either Adams Idea Pro Gold chrome or smoke, or wishon 555 with KK 70

TM wedges

Putters - Snake eyes (4), Cleveland (8), Cameron (6), or others.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I Played the 550M/C combo set split at the 6/7 for a long time.  Loved those clubs.  Sold them because I didn't think I'd ever want a blade again and regret it.

WITB:

Taylormade SIM2 Max 9° w/ UST ProForce V2 5F3 @ 45"

Callaway Epic Speed 4wd w/ AccuFLEX Evolution Reg

Dynacraft Genesis 3 hybrid w/ Steelfiber i95r

Srixon ZX5 4-6 and ZX7 7-GW w/ UST Recoil 95 F4 soft stepped once

Cleveland RTX Zipcore 54/10 w/ Recoil 95 F4 shaft

Cleveland RTX-4 58/03 w/ Recoil 95 F4 9i shaft

Odyssey SL EXO Marxman

Pondering:

Nothing at the moment

In the locker:

Too much to list

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 1 year later...
On 10/8/2020 at 9:31 AM, fixyurdivot said:

I'm currently reading Tom's book "The Search for the Perfect Golf Club" - a really good read thus far, particularly if your a technical detail geek like myself.  I've heard of him over the years and very early in my time with the forum, one of our members suggested his irons when I was searching for my PE2 replacements.  I can honestly say that I've never run across anyone playing his sticks. His website shows a pretty large population of club fitters around the globe that fit for his products.  Anyone on the forum currently or previously playing his products?  

Initially I saw that Wishon Golf was located in Durango, CO and that got me excited as it's not too far out of the way to travel in route to AZ.  But I see that Wishon sold his business to Diamond Golf in West Sussex in 2016.... bummer.  Does anyone know where the Wishon products are made?

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have seen Muira clubs at my club and also on the Korn Ferry tour. 

Wishon was a factor in the game many years ago and it seems like the movements in technology to improve the results of the average player have left him behind.  Today our clubs come with twist faces, higher lofts, and different weight distribution to help the average golfer.  His focus, IMHO, was on the equipment of yesterday and probably had some good products to offer back then. 

I have had contact with two local club makers who use non major components in their club sets and none to date have used his products although one was familiar with him.  I have never seen any of Wishon clubs in the bags at my club and in the various munis that I also play on to date.  I was aware of his products through a catalog and have read many of his articles and books.  Again IMHO, he seemed to be very impressed with his own work and could be seen as fighting the major club makers in a form of chasing windmills.  There seemed to be some deep intolerance for their products on his part.  JMHO.......

SIM2 Max Driver 10.5* Ventus 5-S

Cobra Rad Speed 3W 14.5* Evenflow Riptide CB Stiff

Ping G  4W 17.5* Ping Alta Reg

TM Ti  5W 19* Diamana FW 65 Reg

Titleist T-300 5-PW Amt Red Stiff

Vokey SM7 Wedges 46*  56*  60*

Ping Zing/Anser putter  85020/85029// TM Spider SR#9 Flo Neck

Titleist Pro V-1x 

 

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  • 1 month later...

I have played Wishon Single Length irons since 2016. I played the Sterlings for 4 years and now I play the Eq Nx 1 SL irons.  They are awesome irons. Wishon's irons aren't the most eye-catching designs out there.  However, both designs  offer consistent  shots  and and high quality.

The only thing I didn't like was the sound and the turf interactions with the Sterling 5  6, and 7 irons. Wishon and his team fixed that with a more round bottom line and used hollow heads and this, in my opinion,  improved the acoustics dramatically. ( No more tings on we struck 5, 6, 7 irons)

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  • 1 month later...

I went to a local guy here in San Marcos about 8 years ago. He was ranked no.1 fitter in California. It was fun and a great learning experience. I received the clubs recommended and absolutely hated them they were harsh feeling and cheap looking. Thankfully,  he also gave me a spec sheet. I went to Dicks with the sheet and walked out with a set of x2 hot pros. Absolutely loved them. Over the past few years I've gone to club fitters including club champion and have zero of the clubs recommended and fitted for. Fitting seems like a scam. I fit myself now. Go to golf mart. Buy what looks and feels right and purchase. 90 return policy is my Fitting process and works very successfully and there's no fee or freaking up selling.

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On 10/8/2020 at 10:59 AM, 03trdblack said:

Tom is basically retired and as you mentioned, has sold his business over to Diamond Golf in the UK.  He said he was going to continue to do consulting work on the designs but not handle the day to day business operations anymore.  Honestly, I hope he's not consulting with the design because the last few designs they have put out haven't been very good looking.  The putter line is absolutely cheap box set looking.  The new EQ1-NX irons are pretty decent and well designed but they haven't really come out with another major driver design since the 919thi.  The SHPR driver also looks decent but is a small, 435cc driver with a higher COG and more spin designed to work the ball more.  I can't imagine there being much demand for a product like that.

The shaft bend profile database program also died and hasn't been updated in close to a decade.  Tom posted a long time ago that they would be continuing to work on it but that never happened.

Tom definitely had a wealth of knowledge back in the day but overall I also believe he isn't keeping current with modern club design.  There really isn't anyone picking up the reigns either and I'm predicting the brand will all but vanish in another 5 years or so.

 

The shaft bend profile database has been updated and is up-to-date as of about one week to 10 days ago!

DR - Callaway Paradym X, Newton Motion 4-Dot

4W - T.E. Exotics C722, Diamana D+ 82-S

HYB - Paradym X 18*, HZRDUS Smoke Red 80S; Sub 70 949X 21*, same shaft

7W (if played) - Callaway Epic Flash, ACCRA Tour X 80S

Irons - Cobra Forged Tec X (5-GW), KBS TGI 75-R

Wedges - Edison 2.0, 53* and 57* (bent to 58*), KBS TGI 100

Putter - Makefield VS custom, 34", 67* lie, 1.75* loft

Ball - Maxfli Tour-X CG (2023) or Vice Pro Plus (OnCore ELIXR or Maxfli Tour S in winter)

Bags - Vessel

Cart - MotoCaddy M7 Remote (without the remote)

Spoiler

driver / off the tee is no longer a weakness for me!

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On 2/25/2021 at 1:21 PM, Richie3Jack said:

I have a great deal of respect for Tom and his knowledge.  Problem is that much of the technology has changed since he has retired and the years before he retired he wasn't really doing a lot of research (or it didn't seem like it) other than the Sterling Single Length irons which were really designed by Jaacob Bowden and Tom helped out with.

 

His 919THI driver was excellent.  At one time it was about as great of a driver head as you could find.  High MOI head with a classic shape.  Kind of a better version to the Ping G400 Max as it didn't launch and spin as high as the G400 Max but was as forgiving (I own the 425Max and it's not as forgiving, but spins less and launches lower than the G400 Max). 

 

I did have problems with the face of the 919THI cracking after about 18 months of use.  I was hitting a lot of balls with the driver back then, but almost on cue, the face would crack on 18 months.  They would always replace the head free of charge and apologize.  However when they went to the longer hosel in the 919THI to help with flattening out the lie angle if you choose to do so, it completely changed the CoG of the head.  The head felt completely different to me.  Very tinny, sounded different and didn't perform nearly as well.  I had a friend measure the CoG on the GolfMechanix CoG machine and he said it had the CoG the highest up on the face and the closest to the heel of any driver they had measured.  I didn't have the old models of the 919THI to give my friend to measure, but I firmly believe that the long neck design altered the CoG and it changed the club's CoG.  And it went from being arguably the best driver head on the market to being a head more suited for hackers.

 

I had Tom's 555M blades.  Some of the best blades I had ever hit.  Unfortunately I hit so many balls with them the grooves were shot on a few of the irons and he discontinued making the model.  It's a shame because I think he really had a great design there.

 

His 929 fairway woods were excellent.  I just tend to have misses towards the toe and the 929 weren't as forgiving off the toe as I hoped.  But I could hit some bombs with the 929 fairway metals.

 

I had the 575MMC irons.  Some of the best feeling irons you'll find on the market, but the low bounce angles combined with the grind just didn't suit me.  Others could like it.

 

I did like his S2S steel iron shafts.  His graphite shafts just didn't work for me.

 

Tom was anti-'jacking up the lofts' with the irons.  He preferred to keep driver shafts under 45 inches long.  I am a believer that the MOI matching is something that is very much in the right direction and is far superior to swingweight and swingweight matching.  However, I think it needs to be researched further as to how much MOI matching alters launch and spin.  My gut tells me there is something better out there with regards to the heft of the club and fitting that for the golfer to improve performance.  Unfortunately Tom is the only one who had the cajones, brains and determination to help come out with MOI matching.  He's retired now and none of the other manufacturers are going to look into it anytime soon.

 

 

3JACK

3JACK,

Very good (and comprehensive) response!  I have known Tom (and his wife, Mary Ellen, who helped him run Wishon Golf) for more than 24 years and respect him greatly.  I also worked with Tom in management at Golfsmith from 1997-2001. 

One point which I think you have backwards is the design credit for the Sterling One Length irons.  I know that there was a lot of controversy, and some legal action, on that front; however, if I am not mistaken it was actually Tom Wishon who designed those single-length irons, and Jacob Bowden was merely a minor player in the process, although he attempted to take all of the credit. That is why Jacob was served with a Cease and Desist Letter in that regard, which he has chosen to violate repeatedly.

DR - Callaway Paradym X, Newton Motion 4-Dot

4W - T.E. Exotics C722, Diamana D+ 82-S

HYB - Paradym X 18*, HZRDUS Smoke Red 80S; Sub 70 949X 21*, same shaft

7W (if played) - Callaway Epic Flash, ACCRA Tour X 80S

Irons - Cobra Forged Tec X (5-GW), KBS TGI 75-R

Wedges - Edison 2.0, 53* and 57* (bent to 58*), KBS TGI 100

Putter - Makefield VS custom, 34", 67* lie, 1.75* loft

Ball - Maxfli Tour-X CG (2023) or Vice Pro Plus (OnCore ELIXR or Maxfli Tour S in winter)

Bags - Vessel

Cart - MotoCaddy M7 Remote (without the remote)

Spoiler

driver / off the tee is no longer a weakness for me!

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29 minutes ago, 03trdblack said:

How do you get the update for the existing software? 

Details and instructions are here (it was actually just updated on November 21, 2022) --

   https://wishongolf.com/shaft-selector/

DR - Callaway Paradym X, Newton Motion 4-Dot

4W - T.E. Exotics C722, Diamana D+ 82-S

HYB - Paradym X 18*, HZRDUS Smoke Red 80S; Sub 70 949X 21*, same shaft

7W (if played) - Callaway Epic Flash, ACCRA Tour X 80S

Irons - Cobra Forged Tec X (5-GW), KBS TGI 75-R

Wedges - Edison 2.0, 53* and 57* (bent to 58*), KBS TGI 100

Putter - Makefield VS custom, 34", 67* lie, 1.75* loft

Ball - Maxfli Tour-X CG (2023) or Vice Pro Plus (OnCore ELIXR or Maxfli Tour S in winter)

Bags - Vessel

Cart - MotoCaddy M7 Remote (without the remote)

Spoiler

driver / off the tee is no longer a weakness for me!

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It's fairly easy to contact Tom.

His contact details are in his books, which to me sort of shows that he is prepared to put his money where his mouth is.

I fully understand his comments and philosophy regarding Centre of Gravity, which is sometimes described as "the sweet spot", and the Moment of Inertia, having come from a background of aerospace engineering.

 Most of it is bulls*it.  The sweet spot of a multicomponent assembly such as a driver, isn't necessarily located on the face of the clubhead.  It could be a foot behind it.

So Tom's belief that there could be any design improvement on modern clubs made my option even stronger that most improvements are aesthetic.

Even many of the shafts are repainted, renamed and sold out the same but with the inevitable higher price.

When you start falling out of love with your clubs it's easy to fall into the sales trap.  I check in with Tom with my doubts about loss of distance etc., and then, brought back down to earth when I realise I'm getting older.

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I have known Tom, mostly over the internet through articles, emails, and forums, for 30 years. I have read four of his books. I have a few things I'd like to say that I haven't seen yet in this discussion.

(1) More than anybody else in the world, Tom was the one who has made custom clulbfitting mainstream. He was the indefatigable evangelist for custom fitting. He wrote books about it at several levels, from readers assumed to be naive consumers to experienced clubfitters. He "took the show on the road" frequently. He backed up his ideas about club design with the investment necessary to build clubs to those design principles. Most of the people I know who have Wishon clubs fitted by Wishon-approved clubfitters really like them. (But they are not generally especially noisy about them.) Without Tom's constant efforts in this vein, the adoption of custom fitting by most of the OEMs would never have happened. (Let me except Ping from that statement; they had elements of custom fitting in their design and sales process almost 40 years ago.)

(2) Those who know me know I'm pretty serious about the technical -- engineering and physics -- aspects of golf clubs. Tom may not have been an engineer, but I have only had one and a half such topics where I disagreed with him. Our main disagreement had to do with vertical gear effect. Time and research in the more than a decade since that disagreement have shown him to be wrong. Unfortunately, his later driver designs were based on his assumptions about gear effect, resulting in too much loft low on the face. The half-disagreement was about how to profile shafts. Not that we need to profile shafts. Not even what we should glean from those profiles. Rather the types of measurements we should be making. As the technically sophisticated parts of the shaft making and shaft fitting community adopted EI profiles obtained by deflection measurements, Tom insisted that frequency measurements interpreted according to his database were the future of custom clubfitting. Why do I count this a half-disagreement? Because there was a substantial cost involved in switching all his followers from frequency to deflection; I'm not sure the indie custom clubfitters would have held together as a force for custom fitting if they were forced to spend for the change. And it is probably preferable for the clubfitting community to be doing something useful if highly imperfect, rather than just accept the shaft manufacturers' pronouncement about their shafts. Those didn't work until the clubfitting community, led by Tom, educated enough consumers that the manufacturers had to improve.

There were other issues where I initially disagreed with Tom, but studied them more closely and concluded he was right. And there was one issue (MOI matching) where I was leading him by several years.

Just my two cents...

DaveT

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50 minutes ago, Dave Tutelman said:

I have known Tom, mostly over the internet through articles, emails, and forums, for 30 years. I have read four of his books. I have a few things I'd like to say that I haven't seen yet in this discussion.

(1) More than anybody else in the world, Tom was the one who has made custom clulbfitting mainstream. He was the indefatigable evangelist for custom fitting. He wrote books about it at several levels, from readers assumed to be naive consumers to experienced clubfitters. He "took the show on the road" frequently. He backed up his ideas about club design with the investment necessary to build clubs to those design principles. Most of the people I know who have Wishon clubs fitted by Wishon-approved clubfitters really like them. (But they are not generally especially noisy about them.) Without Tom's constant efforts in this vein, the adoption of custom fitting by most of the OEMs would never have happened. (Let me except Ping from that statement; they had elements of custom fitting in their design and sales process almost 40 years ago.)

(2) Those who know me know I'm pretty serious about the technical -- engineering and physics -- aspects of golf clubs. Tom may not have been an engineer, but I have only had one and a half such topics where I disagreed with him. Our main disagreement had to do with vertical gear effect. Time and research in the more than a decade since that disagreement have shown him to be wrong. Unfortunately, his later driver designs were based on his assumptions about gear effect, resulting in too much loft low on the face. The half-disagreement was about how to profile shafts. Not that we need to profile shafts. Not even what we should glean from those profiles. Rather the types of measurements we should be making. As the technically sophisticated parts of the shaft making and shaft fitting community adopted EI profiles obtained by deflection measurements, Tom insisted that frequency measurements interpreted according to his database were the future of custom clubfitting. Why do I count this a half-disagreement? Because there was a substantial cost involved in switching all his followers from frequency to deflection; I'm not sure the indie custom clubfitters would have held together as a force for custom fitting if they were forced to spend for the change. And it is probably preferable for the clubfitting community to be doing something useful if highly imperfect, rather than just accept the shaft manufacturers' pronouncement about their shafts. Those didn't work until the clubfitting community, led by Tom, educated enough consumers that the manufacturers had to improve.

There were other issues where I initially disagreed with Tom, but studied them more closely and concluded he was right. And there was one issue (MOI matching) where I was leading him by several years.

Just my two cents...

DaveT

My first reading of anything considered golf club technologies was by Tutleman, I found alot of the information I wanted as a novice club rehasher. I  wanted to know how to swing weight a club what affects grips and shafts make and adding lead tape etc etc, I bought a Callaway driving iron that I couldn't hit and I had a ping 1 iron I didn't like either but decided to try the ping 1iron shaft in the callaway driving iron and hit that well. But with all that I've learnt I've NO idea how or why it's so. .. I appreciate all that the Tutleman's Wishon's and others that take the time and effort to write about what they know, all I know is I've gotten very very lucky and I'm very very grateful to get a little success in my rehashing of golf components...

 

I’m a hacker who loves nothing more than to change how I play, be that grips shafts and heads its all fair game lol…

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just because the industry changed club lofts, does not meab wishons theories and ideas no longer apply.  Tom's final designs may not be everyones cup of tea, but he worked on many club designs over the years while at Golfsmith, Dynacraft and Golfworks.  It's easy to dismiss his design theory today now that he is retired.  Karsten Solheim had a few that where quite controversial when he was alive and still in charge of Ping.  Stiff shafts for eveyone? 17-4 clubheads. Anyone still use 17-4 in irons today?

I was excited when he went independent, but I never built his clubs.  i was already involved with a small brand that has also gone along the wayside.  

which brings me back... does anyone not think the OEM's basically destroyed the golf equipment industry to kill off the little guys.  it was a short term hiccup to change the landscape and you do not see people talking about building affordable drivers anymore.

 

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22 hours ago, braveheart said:

I have Wishon 771cs irons in my bag. I’ll contend that they are one of the most forgiving cavity back irons out there. 

Agreed. I've had 771's for 6-7 years now and haven't found anything definitively better. Because I had a large gift card to use at a local shop I decided to get fit for a new set of irons last year. Ended up with Ping G425's. I can honestly say that loft for loft (771CS 6 iron is 30 degrees vs Ping 7 iron is 30 degrees) there is little if any difference in distance between them. The 771's feel so much better. The 425's are like hitting rocks by comparison. I just picked up another set of older but great shape 771's on eBay. I'm going re-shaft them just to play around with them a bit.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tallwood88 said:

Agreed. I've had 771's for 6-7 years now and haven't found anything definitively better. Because I had a large gift card to use at a local shop I decided to get fit for a new set of irons last year. Ended up with Ping G425's. I can honestly say that loft for loft (771CS 6 iron is 30 degrees vs Ping 7 iron is 30 degrees) there is little if any difference in distance between them. The 771's feel so much better. The 425's are like hitting rocks by comparison. I just picked up another set of older but great shape 771's on eBay. I'm going re-shaft them just to play around with them a bit.

Mine have Steelfiber I95 regular flex shafts. I went to graphite with my set to offset arthritis issues in my hands and fingers. I have looked at TM and Ping offerings but they don’t perform any better so I am very happy with what I have. I heard that Tom Wishon is considering some kind of update to this gem. 

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Wishon makes woods with bendable hosels, so you can adjust the lie. That's the selling point for me. I currently play a Wishon 4 wood as my 230-240y club. I'm pretty slight of stature (5'4") and almost all 3 woods are just too upright for me, and so curve left... and with the upright lie you sort of have to come over the top a little so the heel doesn't dig, so you're hitting pull-draws as the only real predictable shot. Can't stand it. I have plenty of situations where I need to hit a nice fade with one, but just can't. Wishon makes woods with bendable hosels (almost no one else in the world does), so I can have the lie bent flat to accommodate me. Works great. I used to have one of his drivers, too, and it was fine, but I wanted something that I can easily swap shafts on, so I stick with my 2016 M1. 

Driver: TM M1 9.5*

4W: Wishon bent FLAT

Irons: Mizuno MP20MB

Wedges: 50/55/60 Mizuno

Putter: Evnroll ER2

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9 hours ago, Tallwood88 said:

Agreed. I've had 771's for 6-7 years now and haven't found anything definitively better. Because I had a large gift card to use at a local shop I decided to get fit for a new set of irons last year. Ended up with Ping G425's. I can honestly say that loft for loft (771CS 6 iron is 30 degrees vs Ping 7 iron is 30 degrees) there is little if any difference in distance between them. The 771's feel so much better. The 425's are like hitting rocks by comparison. I just picked up another set of older but great shape 771's on eBay. I'm going re-shaft them just to play around with them a bit.

I've been looking for a set of 771s but not found as yet except there's a set of left's no good to me, thinking about buying a 919thi driver but it's 11deg. I've heard Tom talking about lowering the loft by 4degrees, have you tried doing this?

I’m a hacker who loves nothing more than to change how I play, be that grips shafts and heads its all fair game lol…

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