NPG Episode 62: Does Golf NEED a Dress Code?

[GolfSpy MPR]

Duration: 00:26:07

Is it fair to kick people off the course based on what color socks they're wearing? We talk this and more on today's episode of No Putts Given.

0:00 - Intro
0:23 - Does golf really need a dress code?
11:43 - What's the value in Junior Clubs?
19:22 - Love It or Leave It:
19:55 - Bryson winning the Masters
20:38 - Vice golf balls
21:32 - Graphite shafts in irons
22:23 - Pros playing blades



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Listen Here

[Quigleyd]

Good listen. 

 

I think there is still a minimal dress code that should be required. I think many non collard shirts are as nice or nicer than what you will see in the form of a polo.. I also think shorts should be fine for tour pros during the event. 

I don't think cut offs or basketball jerseys should be seen on anything nicer than your goat track muni where they have keystone on tap... 

 

My love it or leave it. 

 

19:55 - Bryson winning the Masters - Love it but -  will have to see how the lack of a green book affects him. 
20:38 - Vice golf balls - Meh - they are as said. Just ok.
21:32 - Graphite shafts in irons - Love everything about them but the price
22:23 - Pros playing blades - play what you want.. 

[cnosil]

 

19:55 - Bryson winning the Masters - Love it but -  will have to see how the lack of a green book affects him. 
20:38 - Vice golf balls - Meh - they are as said. Just ok.
21:32 - Graphite shafts in irons - Love everything about them but the price
22:23 - Pros playing blades - play what you want.. 

 

Why do you think Bryson won’t have a green book? They will spend time practicing, walking the greens, and probably practice rounds prior to the tournament.

[Quigleyd]

5 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

Why do you think Bryson won’t have a green book? They will spend time practicing, walking the greens, and probably practice rounds prior to the tournament.

Augusta does not allow them.. That's why.

 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2018/03/21/green-reading-books-the-masters-makes-own-rules/

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/masters-2020-the-augusta-national-rule-that-could-keep-bryson-dechambeau-from-winning-green-jacket

 

Golf’s governing bodies proposed greatly limiting the amount of data found in these books in 2018 before ultimately deciding to only limit their scale and size. But at Augusta National, which has always played by its own set of rules, the topographical maps that plot putting surfaces down to the tenth of a degree of slope are not allowed. Instead, all Masters competitors are provided with yardage books that only show the location and direction of major slopes in the greens.

 

[cnosil]

Augusta does not allow them.. That's why.
 
https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2018/03/21/green-reading-books-the-masters-makes-own-rules/
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/masters-2020-the-augusta-national-rule-that-could-keep-bryson-dechambeau-from-winning-green-jacket
 
Golf’s governing bodies proposed greatly limiting the amount of data found in these books in 2018 before ultimately deciding to only limit their scale and size. But at Augusta National, which has always played by its own set of rules, the topographical maps that plot putting surfaces down to the tenth of a degree of slope are not allowed. Instead, all Masters competitors are provided with yardage books that only show the location and direction of major slopes in the greens.
 

Scanned the articles and the are not banning green reading books. They are banning the detailed topographical maps. They even mention someone like Phil being in a better position since he has more significant notes on the greens than Brysons 4 years worth. It will potentially be a topic, but I don’t think it will be much of an influence. Take the players notes away and force them to read the putt on the spot and then there might be something.

[Quigleyd]

7 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Scanned the articles and the are not banning green reading books. They are banning the detailed topographical maps. They even mention someone like Phil being in a better position since he has more significant notes on the greens than Brysons 4 years worth. It will potentially be a topic, but I don’t think it will be much of an influence. Take the players notes away and force them to read the putt on the spot and then there might be something.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. They do not allow the detailed topo arrow maps that every other event does. For someone like Bryson, I think he needs every detail. He has not had great finishes over all at the masters. 

[DaveP043]

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Scanned the articles and the are not banning green reading books. They are banning the detailed topographical maps. They even mention someone like Phil being in a better position since he has more significant notes on the greens than Brysons 4 years worth. It will potentially be a topic, but I don’t think it will be much of an influence. Take the players notes away and force them to read the putt on the spot and then there might be something.

As far as I know, Augusta doesn't do anything to over-ride the Rules of Golf, and the Rules allow the use of green-reading materials within certain limitations.  A Committee has only limited power to make local rules, but they CANNOT institute a penalty for something that is specifically permitted under the Rules.  What Augusta National HAS done, as far as I can tell, is to deny permission to anyone who wants to compile such a book.   It takes on-site access to get the data to produce these books, you can't do it with remote topo mapping.  So green-reading books aren't disallowed, they're simply not available.

This issue is similar to the flagstick questions that popped up after the 2019 Rules were released.  There was talk that the Masters would somehow require that flagsticks be removed.  They're not allowed to do that, they cannot override the Rules of Golf.

[Quigleyd]

20 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

As far as I know, Augusta doesn't do anything to over-ride the Rules of Golf, and the Rules allow the use of green-reading materials within certain limitations.  A Committee has only limited power to make local rules, but they CANNOT institute a penalty for something that is specifically permitted under the Rules.  What Augusta National HAS done, as far as I can tell, is to deny permission to anyone who wants to compile such a book.   It takes on-site access to get the data to produce these books, you can't do it with remote topo mapping.  So green-reading books aren't disallowed, they're simply not available.

This issue is similar to the flagstick questions that popped up after the 2019 Rules were released.  There was talk that the Masters would somehow require that flagsticks be removed.  They're not allowed to do that, they cannot override the Rules of Golf.

I think with this being their event, and they are allowed a bit more latitude. But mostly I agree. You can hold an event and set what ever rules you want. 

[DaveP043]

9 minutes ago, Quigleyd said:

I think with this being their event, and they are allowed a bit more latitude. But mostly I agree. You can hold an event and set what ever rules you want. 

Do you really think hat the USGA allows the Committee at the Masters more leeway than it allows the PGA Tour, or any other Committee in charge of a competition?  Here's what the Rules of Golf say about the Committee and Local Rules.

Quote

In order to ensure that play is conducted in accordance with the Rules of Golf, a Committee must not use a Local Rule to waive or modify the Rules of Golf simply because it might prefer a Rule to be different.

The bit in the RoG that covers green-reading materials is in Interpretation 4.3a/1.  If you look at Rule 4.3 you'll see a number of provisions which the USGA allows to be overruled using a Local Rule, and the Model Local Rule is referenced.  There is no such Model Local Rule regarding green-reading books, the USGA doesn't allow that rule to be overridden.  The Masters will be run in accordance with the Rules of Golf, that's a conscious choice they've made, and that means that they accept that they don't have the authority to require the flagstick to be removed, nor the authority to ban green-reading materials.

[dlow206]

Regarding dress code, i don't personally care about dress code. I will always continue to wear what is deemed as appropriate golf attire, I don't really care what someone else is wearing. 

[Quigleyd]

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Do you really think hat the USGA allows the Committee at the Masters more leeway than it allows the PGA Tour, or any other Committee in charge of a competition?  Here's what the Rules of Golf say about the Committee and Local Rules.

The bit in the RoG that covers green-reading materials is in Interpretation 4.3a/1.  If you look at Rule 4.3 you'll see a number of provisions which the USGA allows to be overruled using a Local Rule, and the Model Local Rule is referenced.  There is no such Model Local Rule regarding green-reading books, the USGA doesn't allow that rule to be overridden.  The Masters will be run in accordance with the Rules of Golf, that's a conscious choice they've made, and that means that they accept that they don't have the authority to require the flagstick to be removed, nor the authority to ban green-reading materials.

With it being a private course, and a private event that is outside of the PGA. I am simply saying they can host whatever event they want. Obviously they are not going to tack too hard away from the rules. 

[DaveP043]

12 minutes ago, Quigleyd said:

With it being a private course, and a private event that is outside of the PGA. I am simply saying they can host whatever event they want. Obviously they are not going to tack too hard away from the rules. 

They can do whatever they choose, they don't have to follow any of the rules.  They can use 6 inch cups, and allow non-compliant drivers and golf balls if they choose.  They can make it a three stroke penalty if a ball goes into a hazard.  They can even use the word "hazard" again.  But they won't, they choose to play within the USGA/R&A Rules of Golf.  They aren't going to do a single thing that's not in compliance with the Rules.  Nobody wants the responsibility of making up their own Rules.

[Quigleyd]

8 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

They can do whatever they choose, they don't have to follow any of the rules.  They can use 6 inch cups, and allow non-compliant drivers and golf balls if they choose.  They can make it a three stroke penalty if a ball goes into a hazard.  They can even use the word "hazard" again.  But they won't, they choose to play within the USGA/R&A Rules of Golf.  They aren't going to do a single thing that's not in compliance with the Rules.  Nobody wants the responsibility of making up their own Rules.

Totally agree!!! I do some local modifications within the rules at play though. Which is basically what you said. I think we are mostly agreeing in a disagreeable fashion. haha. 

[DaveP043]

Just now, Quigleyd said:

Totally agree!!! I do some local modifications within the rules at play though. Which is basically what you said. I think we are mostly agreeing in a disagreeable fashion. haha. 

Yeah, I'm being something of a stickler in this, because lots of people don't understand the limitations placed on a Committee.  Those folks think that its possible to cut and paste random local rules in wherever they don't like the "real" rule, and that's just not an option most times.  Even the most powerful of Committees don't get a free pass to do whatever they'd like to do.  I wasn't surprised to hear that some folks in Augusta were considering what they could do about the flagstick rule.  I also wasn't surprised when they realized that they'd have to go outside the RoG to do it, and chose to stay with what the rules allow.

[Quigleyd]

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Yeah, I'm being something of a stickler in this, because lots of people don't understand the limitations placed on a Committee.  Those folks think that its possible to cut and paste random local rules in wherever they don't like the "real" rule, and that's just not an option most times.  Even the most powerful of Committees don't get a free pass to do whatever they'd like to do.  I wasn't surprised to hear that some folks in Augusta were considering what they could do about the flagstick rule.  I also wasn't surprised when they realized that they'd have to go outside the RoG to do it, and chose to stay with what the rules allow.

For sure. I appreciate your knowledge here.. 

[Chip Strokes]

to the dress code point: 

no, i don’t think there should be a universal dress code to get on a course. it would discourage a lot of people from playing. 

private courses can and should uphold whatever dress codes they want, that’s their right. but public courses and town-owned courses should be more accessible, and that usually means relaxing the dress code. 

[Quigleyd]

11 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

to the dress code point: 

no, i don’t think there should be a universal dress code to get on a course. it would discourage a lot of people from playing. 

private courses can and should uphold whatever dress codes they want, that’s their right. but public courses and town-owned courses should be more accessible, and that usually means relaxing the dress code. 

public course is a a bit vague. Almost every course in my area are basically semi private. Privately owned, but open for public place. So they can and should have the same privileges' as any private business or private course for that matter. 

Muni courses are really the only exception and even at those there should be a very base standard... 

[Chip Strokes]

1 minute ago, Quigleyd said:

public courses are vague. Almost every course in my area are basically semi private. So they can and should have the same privileges' as any private business or private course for that matter. 

Muni courses are really the only exception and even at those there should be a very base standard... 

i guess it’s just never bothered me what someone i’ve been paired up with is wearing. 

i’m cool with everything from tank tops to tuxedos. 

[Quigleyd]

3 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

i guess it’s just never bothered me what someone i’ve been paired up with is wearing. 

i’m cool with everything from tank tops to tuxedos. 

It does not bother me either. Well, not much. haha.