Mid to High Handicappers Knowledge Discredited

[Golfspy_CG2]

This is something I’ve noticed the past few years, as my knowledge about equipment, technology and topics has increased due to the knowledgeable members here, other Forums and access to the OEM reps and tech people. 

i often have conversations with some players that are much better than me, like 2-7 handicaps.  When topics of fitting, club specs, and other things we talk about here, come up, they don’t believe what I’m saying.    

They will actually say things like, all that stuff on the internet is by writers that couldn’t break 100.  Or, if you spent more time practicing than reading the internet, you might think differently.  I usually say something like, “yeah, I probably would think differently and I’d be wrong just like you”

Now none of the conversations are meant in a mean way, but i think there is definitely a subconscious thought of, you’re a 17 HC.  What do you know.

Now to be fair, there are scratch guys like our Head Pro and DOI who absolutely coke to me or send people to me to ask equipment or technical spec stuff. 
 

Do any of you experience this?

[Micah T]

Most people only know enough to be dangerous.

To me, and I know I’m paraphrasing someone else , but there’s 2 types of golfers: those who want to know everything about everything,and those that want to know nothing. I’m definitely the former.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[Crowev01]

9 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

This is something I’ve noticed the past few years, as my knowledge about equipment, technology and topics has increased due to the knowledgeable members here, other Forums and access to the OEM reps and tech people. 

i often have conversations with some players that are much better than me, like 2-7 handicaps.  When topics of fitting, club specs, and other things we talk about here, when we they don’t believe what I’m saying.     They will actually say things like, all that stuff on the internet is by writers that couldn’t break 100.  Or, if you spent more time practicing than reading the internet, you might think differently.  I usually say something like, “yeah, I probably would think differently and I’d be wrong just like you”

Now none of the conversations are meant in a mean way, but i think there is definitely a subconscious thought of, you’re a 17 HC.  What do you know.

Now to be fair, there are scratch guys like our Head Pro and DOI who absolutely coke to me or send people to me to ask equipment or technical spec stuff. 
 

Do any of you experience this?

I've experienced this. I hear it most of the time as a "feel" or "experience" thing from them, like their ability and skill outweigh mechanical testing. I know people who refuse to try something new or will discount a piece of equipment because they don't think the source or manufacturer meets their standards. I come from the world of fine dining, and the measure of true talent there is the same as golf to me: the best chefs tell you they know much less than they do, never brag about their skills and are eager students of the craft. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

For me having been a high cap with no knowledge on gear or swing took want most better players said as true. As I got more serious and started learning about both topics I realized that not everything the said was actually true.

I know both high and low caps both on forums and thru friendships and there are smart golfers in both groups.

i do think lower caps have a tendency to not give as much credit that’s due to some mid-high caps. It’s too broad a stroke imo to say one side knows more than others and i tend to look at what a persons saying more so than what their skill level is before I  determine how much credibility there is

[tony@CIC]

I've experienced this playing with guys that are mid handicappers - only 3 to 4 strokes lower then mine. Interestingly the single digit handicappers I play with are more open and welcoming. Strange.




Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy

[Golfspy_CG2]

6 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

For me having been a high cap with no knowledge on gear or swing took want most better players said as true. As I got more serious and started learning about both topics I realized that not everything the said was actually true.

I know both high and low caps both on forums and thru friendships and there are smart golfers in both groups.

i do think lower caps have a tendency to not give as much credit that’s due to some mid-high caps. It’s too broad a stroke imo to say one side knows more than others and i tend to look at what a persons saying more so than what their skill level is before I  determine how much credibility there is

Oh yeah. Definitely not all are like that. 

Matter of fact, i’d say there are many single digit guys on here who value some of the thoughts and information from myself or others if higher handicaps. 

As a wise woman once told me, people know different things. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

26 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

Oh yeah. Definitely not all are like that. 

Matter of fact, i’d say there are many single digit guys on here who value some of the thoughts and information from myself or others if higher handicaps. 

As a wise woman once told me, people know different things. 

That’s so true and those who know what they know and listen to what they don’t are kind of rare

[dlow206]

Most of the folks I get paired up with don't talk much about equipment, so I keep quiet. However, one guy I played with, I saw him with a new SIM Max (when it first came out) with a GD AD-IZ in it, a new Scotty, and PXG irons. I knew this guy was into equipment, so we talked a lot about equipment the whole round.

[yungkory]

Some people can't separate a golfer from a person. Just because you're not as skilled of a golfer, doesn't mean you can't have the knowledge of a person. What makes this forum great, over a few other places I frequent, is that for the most part no one has an ego. I lean on anyone, and everyone, for feedback on stuff that I'm curious about because it's coming from someone who I know plays actual golf. As a wise woman once said, "I don't know sh*t about f*ck," and that's why I read and value all of the tester feedback, official forum tests or otherwise.

[Golfspy_CG2]

One example of this happened this week when playing with s friend.  I mentioned my upcoming driver fitting for the TSi.  And how i was looking forwars to it. 
Be told me that if i ever show up to play witj a driver other than my current one (TS1) he’d hit me over the bead with it.   Granted this came during s round where i hit all 14 fairways, but at my usually paltry 200 to 210 yards.  He said you can’t do any better than that driver.   I said, I absolutely can, in terms of launch and spin.    And went into an explanation of how it is just falling flat out of the air.  I told him it was spinning sround 3300 to 3400 last time i was on Trackman with it and combined with 17 degree launch thats too much spin.  And that my ball speed of 124 to 125 while not great should be getting me longer than 194 to 197 carry.  

He said, “launch monitors don’t mean anything.  On course is what matters”

i said, yes on coirse does matter and my current setup is hurting me “on the course” LOL

So most of it was in good fun. But he is 100% convinced just because I’m hitting a very high percentage of fairways, and the ball is going high and straight, that I can’t improve on that.  

Well. My Properly fit TSi better get me some more yards and not lose much in accuracy or I’ll be hearing it.  Ha

[silver & black]

Skill is not the same as knowledge. Skill and knowledge compliment each other in most cases, but golf is a different animal. One can be a very good player and have little knowledge of equipment or the fundamentals of the golf swing.

There are PGA pros with great knowledge of equipment and swing mechanics that will never be scratch. Golf is hard to be good at. Some have natural ability, but little knowledge as to how or why they can play at a high level.

There are players that lack the natural ability to play at a high level, but they have a lot of knowledge about the game, equipment and swing mechanics... they just can't make that knowledge perform like they would like. Such is life...lol.

[Golfspy_CG2]

13 minutes ago, silver & black said:

Skill is not the same as knowledge. Skill and knowledge compliment each other in most cases, but golf is a different animal. One can be a very good player and have little knowledge of equipment or the fundamentals of the golf swing.

There are PGA pros with great knowledge of equipment and swing mechanics that will never be scratch. Golf is hard to be good at. Some have natural ability, but little knowledge as to how or why they can play at a high level.

There are players that lack the natural ability to play at a high level, but they have a lot of knowledge about the game, equipment and swing mechanics... they just can't make that knowledge perform like they would like. Such is life...lol.

 Very well said.  

[Tom the Golf Nut]

My daughter has been actively recruited by several college's for track. One of her top three college picks has a track coach that was hit by a drunk driver several years ago, leaving him close to a quadriplegic. He is still the head track coach and has great success. Just because he can't get out of a wheel chair to show them doesn't mean he can't teach and coach them.

Almost all PGA players have a swing coach. You don't see the swing coaches playing on tour!  I'm sure their handicap is higher than the Pro's they work with.

Some golfers can teach, some know equipment, some know all the rules. Nomatter what someones handicap is doesn't matter if they happen to be knowledgeable in a particular subject. 

[HardcoreLooper]

2 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

So most of it was in good fun. But he is 100% convinced just because I’m hitting a very high percentage of fairways, and the ball is going high and straight, that I can’t improve on that.  

Doesn't believe in golf physics?  Does he believe in golf statistics, and that you would actually score better if you picked up yardage, even if it means missing a few fairways?

And since you've owned nearly every golf club made, I can't think of someone who knows more about equipment.

 

[ejgaudette]

It's like a reverse Dunning Kruger effect and so true for some people. They grew up playing by feel and sight and never got into the math and physics behind it all. I used to care a lot less about it but now have really sewn the value in it. As long as everyone has fun no big deal they just might leave performance on the table. Most people I encounter on the course are not into the gear so I just skip it. Waiting for the PXG or exotic shaft player in a group to just drive in, one of these days it will happen.

[Golfspy_CG2]

20 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

Doesn't believe in golf physics?  Does he believe in golf statistics, and that you would actually score better if you picked up yardage, even if it means missing a few fairways?

And since you've owned nearly every golf club made, I can't think of someone who knows more about equipment.

 

No. I honestly don’t think he does.  He has little interest in LM numbers.  He’s very old fashioned in a lot of his thoughts.  He still uses a TM RocketBLZ 3 wood, which he hits very well. 
 

Until last year he still played Titleist DCI irons.  I finally got him to upgrade to AP3 but he wouldnt go get fit for them.  Just wanted DGS 300 shaft—because that’s what works for him. 

He won’t look at any LM data i show him.  Matter of fact he was on my Rapsodo snd didn’t care about any of the numbers, just wanted to dissect his swing.  
 

It will come down to if the TSi I have coming for the review is longer than my TS1.  Hopefully that will convince him. 
He even used the fact i have had so many clubs in his argument against me.  Saying the TS1 is the best driver Ive had, snd i’ve had a lot of them. 
 

I told him he was correct, it is the best, but I can do even better.   He said, he doesn’t believe it.   

So we’ll have to wait and see. 
 

 

[Golfspy_CG2]

53 minutes ago, ejgaudette said:

It's like a reverse Dunning Kruger effect and so true for some people. They grew up playing by feel and sight and never got into the math and physics behind it all. I used to care a lot less about it but now have really sewn the value in it. As long as everyone has fun no big deal they just might leave performance on the table. Most people I encounter on the course are not into the gear so I just skip it. Waiting for the PXG or exotic shaft player in a group to just drive in, one of these days it will happen.

So true!

And if it’s a PXG player with an Exotic shaft, you’ll talk for days. 

[Shankster]

Just the opposite.  I got a guy into golf at work, letting him use my old gear... 

Now he is trying to give me lessons and says he can keep up with me...
 

I am super glad he is getting in to golf, but he drives me nuts actually.  I am trying to teach him the rules, but just can’t grasp that if he hits two in the crap off the tee he did not get a par......
 

But the guy at DSG underestimated my knowledge as I was teaching him things about the clubs and their launch monitor.

[ejgaudette]

1 hour ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

So true!

And if it’s a PXG player with an Exotic shaft, you’ll talk for days. 

I can only imagine. I think I needed to play the priceyer course more often to find one though. That or someone in the area on vacation, not to many really local guys with same obsession. Plenty not too far away, just not really close.

[HeathS16]

I think everyone can provide valuable information, regardless of handicap.  I know several dudes who just love to experiment and tinker with equipment setups.  Their handicaps are inflated just cause they play with different gear every time we go out because that's what they like to do.  If I have equipment questions, these are the dudes I ask first (and of course I visit this forum).  Kind of a silly notion to believe people don't know anything just because they might be a slightly worse golfer. 

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

Very interesting topic and yes I can definitely agree that I've had conversations with some golfers who are way better on the course, but I would say lack other knowledge. Whether it is different era's or just general schools of thought I've without a doubt got that feeling of you know nothing because you are not a such and such. With all that being said I can relate this curling as it is without a doubt more my expertise, but similar to golf there are different facets and knowledge can come from a variety of areas. For curling there is ice, tactics, technical and mental. I would say I am very good at 3 of the 4, but mental is not amazing. Golf is similar, you have green keeping knowledge with different grasses, product knowledge, technical, mental and more. Even within all of those they can be broken down even further. I like to think my product knowledge is great (thank you MGS and MGS Forum Community!) however same mental and grasses I don't have a clue compared to other facets. Its hard for someone to be a expert in all areas and often simply listening to ppl regardless of handicap and so on there are always things to learn. 
However don't let this confuse you, something you learn what NOT to do rather then what is proper either way every day is a school day and we can learn something. Sadly many based of whatever bias will ignore that. 

[fozcycle]

This is something I’ve noticed the past few years, as my knowledge about equipment, technology and topics has increased due to the knowledgeable members here, other Forums and access to the OEM reps and tech people. 

i often have conversations with some players that are much better than me, like 2-7 handicaps.  When topics of fitting, club specs, and other things we talk about here, come up, they don’t believe what I’m saying.    
They will actually say things like, all that stuff on the internet is by writers that couldn’t break 100.  Or, if you spent more time practicing than reading the internet, you might think differently.  I usually say something like, “yeah, I probably would think differently and I’d be wrong just like you”
Now none of the conversations are meant in a mean way, but i think there is definitely a subconscious thought of, you’re a 17 HC.  What do you know.
Now to be fair, there are scratch guys like our Head Pro and DOI who absolutely coke to me or send people to me to ask equipment or technical spec stuff. 
 
Do any of you experience this?

I run our weekly Saturday game for a lot of golfers and often get questions about clubs, balls, etc. if I can’t answer them, I always suggest they go to My Golf Spy for answers.


Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy
Cobra F8 (12*)w/ Mitsubishi Tense ck Blue Regular; 3W & 5W Cobra King F8 w/ Mitsubishi Tense ck Blue Regular shafts; Tour Edge CBX119 22* Hybrid w/Project X Evenflo Regular shaft; Wilson Staff D-7 5-PW + GW + SW w/UST Mamiya Recoil 460 Regular graphite shafts; Cleveland RTX Zipcore LW(58*) w/DG Spinner shaft. Putter: 33” Slotline SSi 693 Bag: Cobra Ultralight Cart bag, Peaccoat Blue.

[revkev]

On 10/25/2020 at 12:00 AM, Tom the Golf Nut said:

My daughter has been actively recruited by several college's for track. One of her top three college picks has a track coach that was hit by a drunk driver several years ago, leaving him close to a quadriplegic. He is still the head track coach and has great success. Just because he can't get out of a wheel chair to show them doesn't mean he can't teach and coach them.

Almost all PGA players have a swing coach. You don't see the swing coaches playing on tour!  I'm sure their handicap is higher than the Pro's they work with.

Some golfers can teach, some know equipment, some know all the rules. Nomatter what someones handicap is doesn't matter if they happen to be knowledgeable in a particular subject. 

I'm sure that what our esteemed moderator has written is true.  This comment and others like it are spot on.  Since the original post was about equipment I would also throw in fitters and club repair guys.  A good fitter knows how to read data from a launch monitor really well - I would think that he needs to play golf so that he has a sense of what its like but beyond that do you really think that anyone working on a tour players clubs has their playing capability?

 

I've learned a lot since becoming a member of MGS over eight years ago.  Much of it has been from our mid and high handicap guys so much so that I rarely think about a guys handicap when reading his comments.

 

Like Rob the pros at my club will come to me or even refer members to me with equipment questions and also if they are trying to teach a student how to hit a draw.    

[golfingbrock]

I'm a scratch player, but I absolutely can learn from mid/high handicappers, especially on a forum like this where guys have done substantially more research than me in certain areas.  I can knock the ball around the course well, but I have a huge blind spot on technology, club fitting, golf course architecture, and many other areas.  Am I going to listen to a swing tip that some high capper is parroting from the latest Golf Digest or take any other unsolicited advice? Probably not.  But are there several other facets of this great game where they might know more than me and can educate me or help me out? Absolutely.

[Nolan220]

I had some good convos about different swing mechanics or clubs with a buddy of mine who was a scratch golfer but since he had a kids hes prob like 8-10 handicap now .. and he was always try to give me tips I would try them and I either couldn't do it or didn't feel comfortable .. and I would offer up some things to him and he never discredited he always seemed open it ... but last time we played I was doing really well and he was just off missing every fairway and we get to the next hole and he was like you should try this and I was like na man I am good I feel more comfortable doing what I am doing and then I smoked my shot middle fair way while he sliced it into the forest some where.. Usually I would be open to what he was saying but I was so comfortable with what I was doing no way I was going to mess up my back 9 on some swing changes 

[Golfspy_CG2]

4 hours ago, revkev said:

 

 

 also if they are trying to teach a student how to hit a draw.    

I definitely need to book a lesson with you on my next trip down there, which might be January if I have my way! 

[HardcoreLooper]

On 10/25/2020 at 8:53 PM, Golfspy_CG2 said:

It will come down to if the TSi I have coming for the review is longer than my TS1.  Hopefully that will convince him. 
He even used the fact i have had so many clubs in his argument against me.  Saying the TS1 is the best driver Ive had, snd i’ve had a lot of them. 
 

I told him he was correct, it is the best, but I can do even better.   He said, he doesn’t believe it.   

So we’ll have to wait and see. 

The truth will set you free, but some people don't want to hear it.  Hopefully the TSi will outdrive the TS1, and you can offer him a nice big cup of STFU.

It will be interesting if you get longer but slightly less accurate, your handicap goes down, but your buddy tries to tell you that you're better off with the TS1.  I love when people argue with math.

[bens197]

On 10/24/2020 at 9:26 PM, silver & black said:

Skill is not the same as knowledge. Skill and knowledge compliment each other in most cases, but golf is a different animal. One can be a very good player and have little knowledge of equipment or the fundamentals of the golf swing.

There are PGA pros with great knowledge of equipment and swing mechanics that will never be scratch. Golf is hard to be good at. Some have natural ability, but little knowledge as to how or why they can play at a high level.

There are players that lack the natural ability to play at a high level, but they have a lot of knowledge about the game, equipment and swing mechanics... they just can't make that knowledge perform like they would like. Such is life...lol.

Spot on.
 

Confirmation bias will always play a role but at the end of the day, skill and knowledge are mutually exclusive. 
 

[revkev]

On 10/26/2020 at 2:23 PM, Golfspy_CG2 said:

I definitely need to book a lesson with you on my next trip down there, which might be January if I have my way! 

To be clear they have me demonstrate not actually teach anything.

But I am an expert at the 12 ounce curl and would love to compare notes on that with you post round.

[Rickp]

Doesn't believe in golf physics?  Does he believe in golf statistics, and that you would actually score better if you picked up yardage, even if it means missing a few fairways?
And since you've owned nearly every golf club made, I can't think of someone who knows more about equipment.
 

Can’t agree more!


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy