PICK YOUR OEM HITS AND MISSES FOR 2020

[Grand Stranded]

There's a lot of great equipment out there, but every once in a while I see something and I wonder "What were they thinking?" I don't know if there's already a thread similar to this, but I thought it might be fun for us to give our opinions on what equipment we thought was a hit this year, and what wasn't. I'm not going to base my choices on what I liked, instead I'm going to go by what I see in people's bags. Living in one of the most popular areas for golf in the country, I get to see what people from all over the country play. I've looked in a lot of bags . A really, really lot of bags, LOL.

I'll start us off...

HIT   lots to choose from, but I'm going to give it to the G410 lineup of driver and irons. it's amazing how many clubs I see people playing from from the 410 lineup. I'll also give a nod to the Mavrick driver from Callaway. Doesn't seem as prevalent in the bags I see as the 410, but I've never heard anyone who has one say anything but good things. Ironically, I've tried all these clubs, and none really worked very well for me. Go figure...

MISS   The obvious one to me, and you'll be hard pressed to change my mind, is the Truss line of putters Taylormade came out with this year. I can honestly say I've never seen one in a bag. For that matter, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they've tried one, and believe me, we talk about clubs all the time in the groups I play with.

As an aside I'd be curious how Taylormade did this year with the Truss putters, and the entire SIM lineup. I know the drivers and woods are popular, especially with better players. The irons? Not at all. The 770 and 790's just blew these out of the water as far as popularity it seems. Again I seem to swim against the tide here, because I loved the SIM irons I tried. Not sure if they were the max or not, but they were the stronger lofted of the two versions. If I didn't already have the Rogue X in my bag back then, I would've bought them.

[GolfSpy AFG]

9 minutes ago, Grand Stranded said:

There's a lot of great equipment out there, but every once in a while I see something and I wonder "What were they thinking?" I don't know if there's already a thread similar to this, but I thought it might be fun for us to give our opinions on what equipment we thought was a hit this year, and what wasn't. I'm not going to base my choices on what I liked, instead I'm going to go by what I see in people's bags. Living in one of the most popular areas for golf in the country, I get to see what people from all over the country play. I've looked in a lot of bags . A really, really lot of bags, LOL.

I'll start us off...

HIT   lots to choose from, but I'm going to give it to the G410 lineup of driver and irons. it's amazing how many clubs I see people playing from from the 410 lineup. I'll also give a nod to the Mavrick driver from Callaway. Doesn't seem as prevalent in the bags I see as the 410, but I've never heard anyone who has one say anything but good things. Ironically, I've tried all these clubs, and none really worked very well for me. Go figure...

MISS   The obvious one to me, and you'll be hard pressed to change my mind, is the Truss line of putters Taylormade came out with this year. I can honestly say I've never seen one in a bag. For that matter, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they've tried one, and believe me, we talk about clubs all the time in the groups I play with.

As an aside I'd be curious how Taylormade did this year with the Truss putters, and the entire SIM lineup. I know the drivers and woods are popular, especially with better players. The irons? Not at all. The 770 and 790's just blew these out of the water as far as popularity it seems. Again I seem to swim against the tide here, because I loved the SIM irons I tried. Not sure if they were the max or not, but they were the stronger lofted of the two versions. If I didn't already have the Rogue X in my bag back then, I would've bought them.

I tend to agree on your TaylorMade comments, largely because I unabashedly despise all things TaylorMade.  But, I was interested in the SIM DHY that looks a helluva a lot like my old Adams DHY, but I just haven't seen/heard much buzz or feedback about them, or the SIM UDI.

I could be wrong, and maybe this post is going to generate some pushback.  This is about as subjective as a topic can get I suppose, unless you pull up sales revenue and let the dollars and cents tell you what really hit or missed.

[Grand Stranded]

6 minutes ago, Getoffmylawn said:

I tend to agree on your TaylorMade comments, largely because I unabashedly despise all things TaylorMade.  But, I was interested in the SIM DHY that looks a helluva a lot like my old Adams DHY, but I just haven't seen/heard much buzz or feedback about them, or the SIM UDI.

I could be wrong, and maybe this post is going to generate some pushback.  This is about as subjective as a topic can get I suppose, unless you pull up sales revenue and let the dollars and cents tell you what really hit or missed.

Agreed, it's very subjective. That's why I said I'd just go by what I've seen in bags.

I think age and ability has a lot to do with it. The young sticks down here almost all play Titleist, with some mixing it up with a set of Mizuno irons. The middle aged and older tend to go Ping and Callaway.

Callaway is weird though. Once they release a series on CPO, it's all over the place. For example, I was the rare guy dow here playing an Odyssey Stroke Lab putter (double wide) until they came onto CPO. Now you see a ton of them. More than anything else probably, except for maybe the Scotty's.

[Larryd3]

Hit:  Callaway Mavrik driver.  I see so many of them in the bags at our club.  Seems everybody but me is playing one.  Guess I need to try one out at some point and looks like a $100 price decrease now.  Also another plus this is year are Sub70 clubs.  

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

Seems also like PXG 0211s have been a hit this year with PXGs price drop all year. Interesting that so many went toward the cast club vs forged. I will say, the feel from them are outstanding compared to what i games prior (TM Speedblades). I have seen PING drivers also well represented 

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

20 hours ago, Grand Stranded said:

Agreed, it's very subjective. That's why I said I'd just go by what I've seen in bags.

I think age and ability has a lot to do with it. The young sticks down here almost all play Titleist, with some mixing it up with a set of Mizuno irons. The middle aged and older tend to go Ping and Callaway.

Callaway is weird though. Once they release a series on CPO, it's all over the place. For example, I was the rare guy dow here playing an Odyssey Stroke Lab putter (double wide) until they came onto CPO. Now you see a ton of them. More than anything else probably, except for maybe the Scotty's.

The milled Toulon Stroke Labs are a thing of beauty once you get used to the shaft IMO

[Kansas King]

I don't really think there have been many big OEM misses this year. I agree that the Truss line of putters from TM was a bust in terms of sales but it wasn't that they were bad performers, they just looked weird. The other minor bust for 2020 was the Ping G410 just because many seemed to prefer the G400 but I don't think the 410 was a bad performer by any means. The only club I can remember personally feeling was a bust in recent history is the Ping i500 but it turns out that was released in 2018 so it's probably due for a rephresh. That is the only club I have hit in probably the last five years that I have nothing positive to say about other than I like how it looks. Even hitting it off mats, I could not get many hits to feel even remotely solid. I don't know if the club doesn't fit me or just bad design. Maltby's measurements showed it had an extremely high COG and maybe that has something to do with it but all I know is that it wasn't for me. 

On the "non-mainstream OEM" side, I would say Maltby, Ben Hogan, Sub 70, and few other DTC companies made some very compelling products the last 18 months. I would like to see custom club and DTC companies get a little more light but I understand that is not where the money is at. I would also be interested in getting more info on the brands of custom clubs Hireko makes as they have some interesting options, notably the dual length iron heads they have. 

The only other mis for 2020 I would say is that new OEM offerings don't seem to have sold well at public courses, at least the ones I've been playing between Kansas, Nebraska, and Missouri. I've played a lot of rounds this year and can count on one hand how many new SIM, Mavrik, and other $500 drivers I've seen people playing when on a public course. I don't know if this means anything long-term but I think it shows that buying new OEM golf equipment has gotten out reach for many new or non-avid regular Joe golfers. I should also note that I don't see public course pro-shops carrying very much, if any stock of the new $500 drivers or $1200+ irons. I used to at least see a staff bag with a number of new drivers in them at public courses but once they started going over $450, that all went away. Any more, the only clubs I see at public course pro-shops are wedges and some hybrids/FW woods that are under $250. These are just my observations in the Midwest, maybe it's totally different elsewhere. 

[Grand Stranded]

2 hours ago, Kansas King said:

I don't really think there have been many big OEM misses this year. I agree that the Truss line of putters from TM was a bust in terms of sales but it wasn't that they were bad performers, they just looked weird. The other minor bust for 2020 was the Ping G410 just because many seemed to prefer the G400 but I don't think the 410 was a bad performer by any means. The only club I can remember personally feeling was a bust in recent history is the Ping i500 but it turns out that was released in 2018 so it's probably due for a rephresh. That is the only club I have hit in probably the last five years that I have nothing positive to say about other than I like how it looks. Even hitting it off mats, I could not get many hits to feel even remotely solid. I don't know if the club doesn't fit me or just bad design. Maltby's measurements showed it had an extremely high COG and maybe that has something to do with it but all I know is that it wasn't for me. 

On the "non-mainstream OEM" side, I would say Maltby, Ben Hogan, Sub 70, and few other DTC companies made some very compelling products the last 18 months. I would like to see custom club and DTC companies get a little more light but I understand that is not where the money is at. I would also be interested in getting more info on the brands of custom clubs Hireko makes as they have some interesting options, notably the dual length iron heads they have. 

The only other mis for 2020 I would say is that new OEM offerings don't seem to have sold well at public courses, at least the ones I've been playing between Kansas, Nebraska, and Missouri. I've played a lot of rounds this year and can count on one hand how many new SIM, Mavrik, and other $500 drivers I've seen people playing when on a public course. I don't know if this means anything long-term but I think it shows that buying new OEM golf equipment has gotten out reach for many new or non-avid regular Joe golfers. I should also note that I don't see public course pro-shops carrying very much, if any stock of the new $500 drivers or $1200+ irons. I used to at least see a staff bag with a number of new drivers in them at public courses but once they started going over $450, that all went away. Any more, the only clubs I see at public course pro-shops are wedges and some hybrids/FW woods that are under $250. These are just my observations in the Midwest, maybe it's totally different elsewhere. 

No, I think you make a very good point about the number of clubs available for sale at local golf courses. I've seen the same thing, and a lot of what I see there is at least two cycles old most of the time.

When you think about it, I think the same can be sad for the brick and mortar golf stores. I know covid has a lot to do with it, but there are two PGASS's and a brand new Golf Galaxy (also two Dicks Sporting Goods and numerous mom and pops) within a 20 mile radius of me. Even they have a bare minimum of iron sets available. I think the trend has gone from keeping many very many sets in stock, to a fitting cart demo session then and then a custom order.

Just a side note to this... 2020 has been a weird year. The lefty racks are almost completely empty, and have been for months. The right handed driver and woods sections are overflowing with product, even the '19 releases like the Epic Flash and G410 lines for example. I keep hearing about this boom in sales for the OEMs during this pandemic, but it's not apparent down here. Add in the fact that these companies were closed for so long, and the long wait time on orders when they opened? I'll be curious to see the bottom lines of these companies at years end.

[Kansas King]

6 minutes ago, Grand Stranded said:

No, I think you make a very good point about the number of clubs available for sale at local golf courses. I've seen the same thing, and a lot of what I see there is at least two cycles old most of the time.

When you think about it, I think the same can be sad for the brick and mortar golf stores. I know covid has a lot to do with it, but there are two PGASS's and a brand new Golf Galaxy (also two Dicks Sporting Goods and numerous mom and pops) within a 20 mile radius of me. Even they have a bare minimum of iron sets available. I think the trend has gone from keeping many very many sets in stock, to a fitting cart demo session then and then a custom order.

Just a side note to this... 2020 has been a weird year. The lefty racks are almost completely empty, and have been for months. The right handed driver and woods sections are overflowing with product, even the '19 releases like the Epic Flash and G410 lines for example. I keep hearing about this boom in sales for the OEMs during this pandemic, but it's not apparent down here. Add in the fact that these companies were closed for so long, and the long wait time on orders when they opened? I'll be curious to see the bottom lines of these companies at years end.

I think you make a fair point about golf stores and pro shops having less product because of COVID and custom fitting. However, I don't recall even seeing a fitting cart from any manufacturers at the public courses I played this year. My local golf shops have actually have a huge selection of irons to test the last few years and on the racks but there are very non-course golf shops and the TGW headquarters is located where I live. TGW's headquarters is not a golf metropolis by any means, it is mostly just a large pro-shop built into their warehouse. Outside of TGW, I doubt our golf stores keep many stock sets in stock because that just doesn't make sense. An independent club builder in town that sells a lot of sets used and on consignment has been predictably wiped out this year. 

I expect OEMs will have a good year financial but maybe not a blowout year. The restrictions and delays have had to of killed their ability to move product and match demand. The used club market may be very favorable in the next few years if things return to normal and people stop golfing. I picked up a decent set of i15s on eBay prior to COVID for just over $100, but I couldn't come close to replicating that purchase today. My fear is that while used prices are certainly up from unusual demand, it's that way for almost everything in the U.S. including cars, guns, boats, RVs, home audio equipment, and anything else you can use without others. I think this pandemic just shows how much we were spending on services and travel instead of physical goods. We will either hit a period of high inflation and used prices will stay high or used stuff is about to get cheap. 

[Grand Stranded]

41 minutes ago, Kansas King said:

I think you make a fair point about golf stores and pro shops having less product because of COVID and custom fitting. However, I don't recall even seeing a fitting cart from any manufacturers at the public courses I played this year. My local golf shops have actually have a huge selection of irons to test the last few years and on the racks but there are very non-course golf shops and the TGW headquarters is located where I live. TGW's headquarters is not a golf metropolis by any means, it is mostly just a large pro-shop built into their warehouse. Outside of TGW, I doubt our golf stores keep many stock sets in stock because that just doesn't make sense. An independent club builder in town that sells a lot of sets used and on consignment has been predictably wiped out this year. 

I expect OEMs will have a good year financial but maybe not a blowout year. The restrictions and delays have had to of killed their ability to move product and match demand. The used club market may be very favorable in the next few years if things return to normal and people stop golfing. I picked up a decent set of i15s on eBay prior to COVID for just over $100, but I couldn't come close to replicating that purchase today. My fear is that while used prices are certainly up from unusual demand, it's that way for almost everything in the U.S. including cars, guns, boats, RVs, home audio equipment, and anything else you can use without others. I think this pandemic just shows how much we were spending on services and travel instead of physical goods. We will either hit a period of high inflation and used prices will stay high or used stuff is about to get cheap. 

The only issue I have with what you are saying is the part about used clubs becoming a lot cheaper when things return to normal.

I'm more of the opinion, as the saying goes, "a rising tide lifts all boats" by that I mean as long as the cost of new equipment stays as high as it is, combined with OEMs tightening their inventory the way they have (examples like Taylormade, with their frequent releases and subsequent price blowouts are a thing of the past) the used club market pricing will remain high.

Just look in this thread and you'll see another option... the 2 irons that people cited as "hits" were the DTC Sub 70's, and the PXG 0211's which have been on sale for $89 per as opposed to their prior $220. This shows the opportunity there for smaller direct to the consumer or companies willing to cut prices.

As I was typing this, I realized that this year, when I was looking to change out of my irons, the three finalists, (all sets 5-GW) in order were the 0211's at $623, Apex 19's at $779 (30% off CPO discounted price in outlet condition), and the Sub70 699's at about $575. All three were priced way below normal OEM pricing. In fact buying the PXG 0211's 5-GW at the $623 price point allowed me to buy 2 new Vokey SM7 wedges, and still stay $300-500 under the price of comparable sets of the PING, Mizuno, Titleist and any other OEM's offerings. Not to mention the stock MMT shafts I got are a $50-70 upgrade  with those companies.   

Edited November 19, 2020 by Grand Stranded

[Kansas King]

3 minutes ago, Grand Stranded said:

The only issue I have with what you are saying is the part about used clubs becoming a lot cheaper when things return to normal.

I'm more of the opinion, as the saying goes, "a rising tide lifts all boats" by that I mean as long as the cost of new equipment stays as high as it is, combined with OEMs tightening their inventory the way they have (examples like Taylormade, with their frequent releases and subsequent price blowouts are a thing of the past) the used club market pricing will remain high.

Just look in this thread... the 2 irons that people cited as "hits" were the DTC Sub 70's, and the PXG 0211's which have been on sale for $89 per as opposed to their prior $220. This shows the opportunity there for smaller direct to the consumer or companies willing to cut prices.

As I was typing this, I realized that this year, when I was looking to change out of my irons, the three finalists, (all sets 5-GW) in order were the 0211's at $623, Apex 19's at $779 (30% off CPO discounted price in outlet condition), and the Sub70 699's at about $575. All three were priced way below normal OEM pricing. In fact buying the PXG 0211's 5-GW at the $623 price point allowed me to buy 2 new Vokey SM7 wedges, and still stay $300-500 under the price of comparable sets of the PING, Mizuno, Titleist and any other OEM's offerings. Not to mention the stock MMT shafts I got are a $50-70 upgrade  with those companies.   

I'm agree that a rising tide lifts all boats. For all I know, everyone that stops golfing might throw their sets in their basements and they may never see the used market which would leave prices higher. However, I think with DTC and custom club companies making so many good clubs now that people are starting to get interested in, that could drop the value of used OEM clubs. Why buy a used set of T200s for $600 when I can get the exact set I want new from Ben Hogan, Sub 70, Matby, etc. for the same or less? Of course the vanity of golf comes into play and I expect golf clubs will hold their value better than they should. I also expect clubs to potentially hold their value better just because I don't expect massive improvements going forward. Until a new material, manufacturing technique, or rule change comes along, I don't think there will be a lot of progress made in the technology department. Even clubs made 10 years ago are still perfectly serviceable today. Many people act like we are making 3% or 4% improvements every year when the reality is that clubs are only improving a fraction of a percent every year. The biggest leap in golf in the last decade has been wide availability of good custom fitting. 

[Grand Stranded]

14 minutes ago, Kansas King said:

I'm agree that a rising tide lifts all boats. For all I know, everyone that stops golfing might throw their sets in their basements and they may never see the used market which would leave prices higher. However, I think with DTC and custom club companies making so many good clubs now that people are starting to get interested in, that could drop the value of used OEM clubs. Why buy a used set of T200s for $600 when I can get the exact set I want new from Ben Hogan, Sub 70, Matby, etc. for the same or less? Of course the vanity of golf comes into play and I expect golf clubs will hold their value better than they should. I also expect clubs to potentially hold their value better just because I don't expect massive improvements going forward. Until a new material, manufacturing technique, or rule change comes along, I don't think there will be a lot of progress made in the technology department. Even clubs made 10 years ago are still perfectly serviceable today. Many people act like we are making 3% or 4% improvements every year when the reality is that clubs are only improving a fraction of a percent every year. The biggest leap in golf in the last decade has been wide availability of good custom fitting. 

Again, we're on the same page here.

The one thing we both should keep in mind though is "we" aren't the typical consumer when it comes to golf products. We're both a lot more aware of what's out there, the value in it, and the limits on club technology. The fact that we are talking tech and pricing on a golf message board, along with knowing of the DTC offerings available, probably sets us apart from 90% of those who buy clubs at retail.

Just to take this a bit further, When I chose the PXG 0211's one factor was I knew when the time came when I'd look to move on from them, their resale or trade value would be a lot higher than the Callaway, and the Sub70 market would be almost non existent. Was that the determining factor? No, it wasn't, but I was aware of it, and weighed it, because I'd like to think I'm more of an educated consumer than most people (not those here) who walk into their local golf shop.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Grand Stranded

[GaDawg]

HIT - Titleist T - 100s Irons

[Kansas King]

HIT - Titleist T - 100s Irons
[/quote
Titleist’s iron line up has been a home run since they released the AP series of irons. The T-series just builds on that and adds a level of GI irons Titleist hasn’t really had in the past. If I were to rank the best big OEM clubmakers, I would have a tough time not putting Titleist on top.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[RollingGreens]

On 11/19/2020 at 3:18 PM, Kansas King said:

I think you make a fair point about golf stores and pro shops having less product because of COVID and custom fitting. However, I don't recall even seeing a fitting cart from any manufacturers at the public courses I played this year. My local golf shops have actually have a huge selection of irons to test the last few years and on the racks but there are very non-course golf shops and the TGW headquarters is located where I live. TGW's headquarters is not a golf metropolis by any means, it is mostly just a large pro-shop built into their warehouse. Outside of TGW, I doubt our golf stores keep many stock sets in stock because that just doesn't make sense. An independent club builder in town that sells a lot of sets used and on consignment has been predictably wiped out this year. 

I expect OEMs will have a good year financial but maybe not a blowout year. The restrictions and delays have had to of killed their ability to move product and match demand. The used club market may be very favorable in the next few years if things return to normal and people stop golfing. I picked up a decent set of i15s on eBay prior to COVID for just over $100, but I couldn't come close to replicating that purchase today. My fear is that while used prices are certainly up from unusual demand, it's that way for almost everything in the U.S. including cars, guns, boats, RVs, home audio equipment, and anything else you can use without others. I think this pandemic just shows how much we were spending on services and travel instead of physical goods. We will either hit a period of high inflation and used prices will stay high or used stuff is about to get cheap. 

Inflammation is at an all time high. Look at the days across the bard for ordering new clubs, especially around the holidays it is going to put a dent in their sales. Golf may have just become the next big thing to be inflated I.E bourbon and boats