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The G.O.A.T.


Shankster

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So I showed my wife a picture today of Seve from the 85 Masters... and I asked her who it was and she said Arnie... jokingly of course... so I then tested her golf knowledge and showed her a picture of Jack and Arnie and asked who Arnie was. She point at Jack and said he’s the best golfer there ever was.

I corrected her and told her that was Jack, but she knew he was the G.O.A.T.... but he didn’t have a flashy name or Iced Tea our so she knew Arnie’s name.

She said Arnie is more of a GOAT than Tiger... and I am half tempted to agree. 

So, let’s hash this our again... why? Because it is 2020!... for a few more weeks.

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Tough one. The numbers of course are there...

Tiger: 15 Majors

Jack: 18 Majors

Arnie: 7 Majors

This alone narrows that discussion. Of course you cannot just go off majors but for this discussion alone I will keep it short.

To me Tiger is the GOAT. He alone transformed golf and has made it what it is today. He alone has expanded the sport to millions of young kids, teenagers and adults. I think if you asked who the face of golf is, Tigers name would be 7/10 answers. Just MPO.

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I give Jack the slight edge as the G O A T with his majors total plus his Ryder Cup record.

However I think Tiger is kind of a combination of Jack & Arnie as far as influence because he grew the game much like Arnie did as well as being the absolute best of those playing like Jack was.

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2 hours ago, Shapotomous said:

I give Jack the slight edge as the G O A T with his majors total plus his Ryder Cup record.

However I think Tiger is kind of a combination of Jack & Arnie as far as influence because he grew the game much like Arnie did as well as being the absolute best of those playing like Jack was.

Not to mention Jack’s 2nd’s in majors... like most of the ones he didn’t win.

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Whether it makes him the GOAT or not, there is something to be said about Tiger remaining competitive well into his 40s despite a fused back and host of other injuries. Even more special when you consider the likes of the other players he's playing against. That's not to say Jack didn't play against great players himself, but Tiger in his early career was unlike anyone else on tour. Now almost all of Tiger's competitors are arguably cut from or improvements from his own mould. 

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This debate has already been settled, but sequels can often be worth the price of admission.  I wonder if he gets a free refill 🙂

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Nicklaus has 19 runner up finishes in majors. Woods has 6 or 7 (saw both numbers stated). Woods has, what, 9 more tour victories than Nicklaus. On the numbers, I’ll pick Nicklaus. However, I think Woods was more talented (purely subjective opinion). 
Dan Jenkins famously wrote in the early 2000’s that only two things could prevent Woods from passing Nicklaus:  injury or a bad marriage. Well, there you go. 

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51 minutes ago, Hook DeLoft said:

Nicklaus has 19 runner up finishes in majors. Woods has 6 or 7 (saw both numbers stated). Woods has, what, 9 more tour victories than Nicklaus. On the numbers, I’ll pick Nicklaus. However, I think Woods was more talented (purely subjective opinion). 
Dan Jenkins famously wrote in the early 2000’s that only two things could prevent Woods from passing Nicklaus:  injury or a bad marriage. Well, there you go. 

I’ll agree with the talent part.  Plus the WGC’s have to count for something...? And 70000000000 weeks at number 1?

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43 minutes ago, Shankster said:

I’ll agree with the talent part.  Plus the WGC’s have to count for something...? And 70000000000 weeks at number 1?

That’s a lot of years 

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I think any professional would aspire to the greatness of these gentlemen: not sure there’s ever been a person more beloved or inspirational than Mr. Palmer. But he’s not the . Maybe one of the finest men the public in general has had the pleasure of knowing, but not the G.O.A.T

Jack might be the greatest pressure player ever: the major wins plus a ridiculous amount of 2nd’s means I can’t really argue with anyone placing the crown on his head.

But to me, Tiger is the Greatest: his form during the early 2000’s comprised the most dominant run in the sport’s history. His win % all time is almost 23%. His all time major win % is 33% . Men lie, women lie, numbers don’t: put me down for team tiger. IMG_3445.PNG


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38 minutes ago, Micah T said:

I think any professional would aspire to the greatness of these gentlemen: not sure there’s ever been a person more beloved or inspirational than Mr. Palmer. But he’s not the emoji238.png. Maybe one of the finest men the public in general has had the pleasure of knowing, but not the G.O.A.T

Jack might be the greatest pressure player ever: the major wins plus a ridiculous amount of 2nd’s means I can’t really argue with anyone placing the crown on his head.

But to me, Tiger is the Greatest: his form during the early 2000’s comprised the most dominant run in the sport’s history. His win % all time is almost 23%. His all time major win % is 33% . Men lie, women lie, numbers don’t: put me down for team tiger. IMG_3445.PNG


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I was hoping that someone would mention the win percentage. It's crazy how often Tiger entered, and won. The other crazy thing, is how often he would crush the field and win by like 5+ strokes.

For me, I never personally saw much of Jack in his prime so I'm probably biased, but I honestly believe that Tiger transcends the sport and no one will ever come close to having as much of an impact on golf. The modern game to me IS Tiger, and that's evidenced by the amount of these guys on tour naming Tiger as being the reason they play.

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7 hours ago, Micah T said:

I think any professional would aspire to the greatness of these gentlemen: not sure there’s ever been a person more beloved or inspirational than Mr. Palmer. But he’s not the emoji238.png. Maybe one of the finest men the public in general has had the pleasure of knowing, but not the G.O.A.T

Jack might be the greatest pressure player ever: the major wins plus a ridiculous amount of 2nd’s means I can’t really argue with anyone placing the crown on his head.

But to me, Tiger is the Greatest: his form during the early 2000’s comprised the most dominant run in the sport’s history. His win % all time is almost 23%. His all time major win % is 33% . Men lie, women lie, numbers don’t: put me down for team tiger. IMG_3445.PNG


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I’m glad you brought hogan up because that’s no slouch either and would have him ahead of arnie 

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10 hours ago, Micah T said:

I think any professional would aspire to the greatness of these gentlemen: not sure there’s ever been a person more beloved or inspirational than Mr. Palmer. But he’s not the emoji238.png. Maybe one of the finest men the public in general has had the pleasure of knowing, but not the G.O.A.T

Jack might be the greatest pressure player ever: the major wins plus a ridiculous amount of 2nd’s means I can’t really argue with anyone placing the crown on his head.

But to me, Tiger is the Greatest: his form during the early 2000’s comprised the most dominant run in the sport’s history. His win % all time is almost 23%. His all time major win % is 33% . Men lie, women lie, numbers don’t: put me down for team tiger. IMG_3445.PNG


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That’s eye opening info. 

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I think the problem with this debate is the same problem with the MJ and Lebron debate. Different era's, different equipment, different clothes, the tech, the numbers, etc the list could go on and on for golf. I grew up watching Tiger. I loved golf before Tiger because it was something I did with my Dad, but what Tiger has done for the game is crazy! But, then again I could be bias because I never got to watch Jack play. 

I give the GOAT to Tiger but I really don't have any points to make to support it outside of what has already been said. LOL

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13 minutes ago, jb0330 said:

I think the problem with this debate is the same problem with the MJ and Lebron debate. Different era's, different equipment, different clothes, the tech, the numbers, etc the list could go on and on for golf. I grew up watching Tiger. I loved golf before Tiger because it was something I did with my Dad, but what Tiger has done for the game is crazy! But, then again I could be bias because I never got to watch Jack play. 

I give the GOAT to Tiger but I really don't have any points to make to support it outside of what has already been said. LOL

The MJ debate is a little easier for me. He never lost a finals. 6/6 and always pulled through in the clutch. I've seen LBJ miss important free throws or shots too many times. With Jordan, you just knew it was going in. Much like Tiger though, MJ was bigger than the game and no one will ever come close to those two for the rest of history.

He's easily the GOAT of the current era though, and one of the all time talents. Jordan all time GOAT though, then Kobe in the next era, now LBJ currently.

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Tiger is purely the best to ever hit a golf ball.

Jack is Golf's best winner. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/3/2020 at 8:26 PM, Lacassem said:

Tough one. The numbers of course are there...

Tiger: 15 Majors

Jack: 18 Majors

Arnie: 7 Majors

This alone narrows that discussion. Of course you cannot just go off majors but for this discussion alone I will keep it short.

To me Tiger is the GOAT. He alone transformed golf and has made it what it is today. He alone has expanded the sport to millions of young kids, teenagers and adults. I think if you asked who the face of golf is, Tigers name would be 7/10 answers. Just MPO.

While I agree that Tiger boomed golf into the global sport it is today, I do believe it was a perfect storm of:

  • Newer, better and easier to play equipment that made the game more tempting to beginners
  • Changes in society towards golf and the decline of the image of it being a stuffy upper class sport only
  • The proliferation of TV coverage of sport exemplified by the creation of Golf Channel (Thanks to Arnie btw)
  • This larger than life talent who happened to smash social boundries (linked to point 2) 

While Tiger might be the biggest talent golf has ever seen, I don't think that make his the default GOAT. 

 

 

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On 12/4/2020 at 5:41 AM, Micah T said:

I think any professional would aspire to the greatness of these gentlemen: not sure there’s ever been a person more beloved or inspirational than Mr. Palmer. But he’s not the emoji238.png. Maybe one of the finest men the public in general has had the pleasure of knowing, but not the G.O.A.T

Jack might be the greatest pressure player ever: the major wins plus a ridiculous amount of 2nd’s means I can’t really argue with anyone placing the crown on his head.

But to me, Tiger is the Greatest: his form during the early 2000’s comprised the most dominant run in the sport’s history. His win % all time is almost 23%. His all time major win % is 33% . Men lie, women lie, numbers don’t: put me down for team tiger. IMG_3445.PNG


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While Tigers win ratio is incredible I'm more impressed by Snead and Nicklaus as they have played significantly more tournaments in their career and probably at a much older and less competitive age so that could potentially skew the numbers a little. 

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On 12/3/2020 at 8:00 PM, Shankster said:

And 70000000000 weeks at number 1?

This part right here IMO is a big part of why it’s Tiger.

Also the number of events played without missing a cut. Is pretty impressive too 

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On 12/3/2020 at 3:18 PM, Shankster said:

So I showed my wife a picture today of Seve from the 85 Masters... and I asked her who it was and she said Arnie... jokingly of course... so I then tested her golf knowledge and showed her a picture of Jack and Arnie and asked who Arnie was. She point at Jack and said he’s the best golfer there ever was.

I corrected her and told her that was Jack, but she knew he was the G.O.A.T.... but he didn’t have a flashy name or Iced Tea our so she knew Arnie’s name.

She said Arnie is more of a GOAT than Tiger... and I am half tempted to agree. 

So, let’s hash this our again... why? Because it is 2020!... for a few more weeks.

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In my humble opinion, I believe that Arnie in his time and Tiger in his time did more for the game of golf exposing it to millions whom would not have otherwise been exposed to it than Jack ever has.  Hence why Arnie was always considered the common-man's champion and the army followed him so closely.  Tiger, likewise, opened the door even moreso to a whole other group of golfers that were often times neglected and or forgotten all-together.  Jack was more focused on the competition and winning that next tournament with less emphasis of being a man of the people.  Not that it's a horrible thing either.  It just wasn't his nature to be the guy Arnie and or Tiger were / are until Jack's playing days ended.  After which, I suggest that Jack has done an awful lot for the game.  I'm thankful for all three, personally. 

Jack, by comparison to the other two gentlemen however took the GAME of golf (skill, performance, etc...) to a level in which you cannot deny makes him the GOAT.  Now, I know that is a mighty unpopular opinion amongst many of the younger generation, but there is some logic behind that statement.  AND one underlying aspect to the whole argument that we simply will never be able to answer.  Equipment. 

Jack played in an era where Woods were actually WOODS.   He played in an error where you had a hung of metal on the end of a shaft that offered NO assistance at all.  He played in an era where the balls were wound and or balata's both of which flew a fraction of what today's modern balls do.  He also played in an era where some of the stiffest competition from a Hall of Fame perspective existed.  Could Tiger have replicated his success during this era?  I would offer "probably."  BUT we will never know.  Could any of today's modern golfers be handed that equipment and succeeded?  I would offer only a fraction could with the rest of them failing more often than not.  

The argument of GOAT in any sport is so subjective.  One can point out advancements in whatever phase of the game they'd like and we'd go round and round in circles.  Having lived through the tail end of Jack's career and all of Tigers I have arrived at one simple statement that facilitates my entire view on the subject.  Both Jack and Tiger are the two best to ever swing a club.  Jack edges tiger in Major wins and that puts him just a hair ahead of him.  Total win's isn't an argument that needs introduced because if we went that route, Sam Snead would have always been considered the best to ever do it because until recent he held the total wins record.  

To your post and or statement though, if I were looking at who has done more for the sport of golf I think you definitely could make an argument that during Arnie's time he did for golf what Tiger has done during his time.  All three are beloved and rightfully so in my humble opinion. 

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,,

IMHO to be thought of as a "G.O.A.T", takes more than just numbers, there has to be MORE than just that.

Personally, I don't believe in GOATS, I believe there is "The Best during " and "My Favorite" because there is too many variables and even more what if's. 

Tiger Woods is mentioned as a GOAT, he is given accolades for doing so much for golf, but I think the media deserves some of that credit also, golf has also done ALOT for Tiger too.

Could Tiger Woods have as many wins had he driven from tournament to tournament like many pro's did in the 50's rather than private jets? We will never know.

Could Ben Hogan have won many more majors had he not been injured and flown to tournaments like today's stars? We will never know.

Could Jack Nicklaus won more had he played with todays equipment? We will never know.

 

 

 

 

 DRIVER: default_cobra-small.jpg.125f3712aad21ad9f7ca2c672e34a299.jpg  Cobra F-8 set at 10.5,  Aldila NV 2KXV Blue 60 (R) 44 1/2 "

3 & 5 WOOD: default_callaway-small.jpg.a58e7c6760b71a9eb95d385ecc5d2200.jpg Callaway XR-16, Fujikura Speeder Evolution 565 Red (R) 

IRONS 5-SW: default_ping-small.jpg.b7606a25498d65282474c96f18d2debd.jpg PING G-700, 2 upright, std loft  Alta CB (R) + 1/2"

HYBRID 3-4:  default_ping-small.jpg.b7606a25498d65282474c96f18d2debd.jpg PING G-410, 1 upright,  Alta CB 70 Red (R) + 1/2"

PUTTER: Byron Experimental GSS

 

 

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  • 5 weeks later...

Tiger played the most dominant golf for 1, 3, 5, and 10 year periods than anyone has ever seen. Four straight majors (the Tiger Slam). 7 wins in a row. Three different times he won 5 or more tournaments in a row. He had two different periods of a year each that he won more than half his starts. Over 7 years without missing a cut. That is a long enough period of time of dominance to be the GOAT, despite not catching Jack on career majors. 

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  • 5 months later...

Bobby Jones.

Amateur status but only one who won all Majors in one year, the real Grand Slam not what they call it now, simply just winning all of them in your lifetime.

He did with clubs, balls and clothing that are so under performing than now.

True GOAT.

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Bobby Jones was ridiculously amazing. Obviously, he was a phenomenal golfer, in 1930 winning the original Grand Slam of championships (US Open, British Open, US Amateur, and British Amateur) at the age of 28. After retiring, he co-founded Augusta National, The Masters, and earned degrees from Georgia Tech (Mechanical Engineering) and Harvard (English).

Did I mention he was also an infantry captain on the shores of Normandy in WWII?

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