Sticker Shock

[fixyurdivot]

So the result of my bag fitting yesterday is to re-shaft my G410's (4-UW) with ACCRA ICWT for; +0.1 mph BS, +3.2 mph CHS, +8.3 yards carry, - 3.3 yards dispersion, and -360 rpm spin for $1535.00?  

None of the other club head or shaft combinations (steel and composite) outperformed the Nippon AWT 2.0/G410 I'm bagging... except the ACCRA.  I've never heard of them or Drago; the shaft that was in second place of the composite options.

So I just dropped the news on my wife and she said "just for the shafts?" .  I've taken all the performance gains above and cranked them into a half dozen new math formulas to see if makes sense... so far it doesn't.  I'm curious for those who have opted to choose the aftermarket shaft route, what magnitude in performance gains you had?  +8.3 yards isn't peanuts but $192/club installed isn't either.

Lastly, to those on the forum who are composite shaft specialists, do any lower price, OEM upgrade shafts come to mind that might be very close to the ACCRA ICWT?

[Kenny B]

[fixyurdivot]

43 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Yeah, and that's only the half of it... quite literally.  Add in the replacement shaft for my G410P driver and the replacement TSi2 woods and shafts, and we're north of $3000.00.  

Moreover, they did not have the correct adapter so that we could not baseline my G400 3w and 5w with that same upgrade shaft.  It may have competed well with the TSi2 and I would definitely want to have that data as part of making a decision.

[Kenny B]

24 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Yeah, and that's only the half of it... quite literally.  Add in the replacement shaft for my G410P driver and the replacement TSi2 woods and shafts, and we're north of $3000.00.  

Moreover, they did not have the correct adapter so that we could not baseline my G400 3w and 5w with that same upgrade shaft.  It may have competed well with the TSi2 and I would definitely want to have that data as part of making a decision.

No matter what everyone else says about you Bill, you are worth it.  

[fixyurdivot]

8 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

No matter what everyone else says about you Bill, you are worth it.  

Well, not sure about that but appreciate the sentiment.  I did just find this article by Matt Saternus on the subject and my data pretty much falls in line with this testing (I find that cool).  The "whippy/flexy" attribute is what I quickly saw as the difference in feel between my CB Alta Red and those I tested on the driver.  Of course the article mentions nothing about the "are they worth it" question... so no help there.

Are Aftermarket Shafts Better Than Stock Shafts? - Golf Myths Unplugged - Plugged In Golf

[Kenny B]

2 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Well, not sure about that but appreciate the sentiment.  I did just find this article by Matt Saternus on the subject and my data pretty much falls in line with this testing (I find that cool).  The "whippy/flexy" attribute is what I quickly saw as the difference in feel between my CB Alta Red and those I tested on the driver.  Of course the article mentions nothing about the "are they worth it" question... so no help there.

Are Aftermarket Shafts Better Than Stock Shafts? - Golf Myths Unplugged - Plugged In Golf

Matt was GolfSpy Matt back when I joined.  

His test results are not surprising, but it was only two shafts.  I wouldn't make those claims only testing two shafts.

[cnosil]

I see that they put you in the KBS TD shaft.  You can find way south of $375;  I bought mine on ebay for $80.  You can easily find them in the $150-175 range.   

You are definitely on the high end range of iron shafts with Accra and VA Composites.    What shafts did you try?

 

 

[dlow206]

2 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

So the result of my bag fitting yesterday is to re-shaft my G410's (4-UW) with ACCRA ICWT for; +0.1 mph BS, +3.2 mph CHS, +8.3 yards carry, - 3.3 yards dispersion, and -360 rpm spin for $1535.00?  

None of the other club head or shaft combinations (steel and composite) outperformed the Nippon AWT 2.0/G410 I'm bagging... except the ACCRA.  I've never heard of them or Drago; the shaft that was in second place of the composite options.

So I just dropped the news on my wife and she said "just for the shafts?" .  I've taken all the performance gains above and cranked them into a half dozen new math formulas to see if makes sense... so far it doesn't.  I'm curious for those who have opted to choose the aftermarket shaft route, what magnitude in performance gains you had?  +8.3 yards isn't peanuts but $192/club installed isn't either.

Lastly, to those on the forum who are composite shaft specialists, do any lower price, OEM upgrade shafts come to mind that might be very close to the ACCRA ICWT?

$192 per club just for the shaft + installation in your existing club heads? What weight and flex for the Accras?

[Micah T]

How much for new clubs with these shafts? Then sell your old set? I re-shafted my irons at CC of all places, and it wasn’t anywhere near that price. How much is the shaft alone and how much is labor? Did you pick a stock grip or was that an up charge too?


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[juspoole]

Accra's are some of the best shafts out there right now and VA Composites are very good as well.  Per Ian at TXG - he recently has said Accra has the tightest discrepancies among any golf shaft manufacturer right now.  With that said - DO NOT buy a build from Club Champion/TrueSpec/etc...unless you want to pay triple what is really needed.  It might take a bit more work, but you can find a way to get everything you need at a reasonable price with a bit of buy/sell and research.  

Accra shafts are pricey, but I think you could do much better than 192 per club all in if you look elsewhere.  You might even keep an eye out to see if you can find them in another set.  Easy to do a shaft pull and replace in your heads.  Sometimes you can really save some dollars that way.

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by juspoole

[RickyBobby_PR]

Can you source the shafts from somewhere else and have a local shop build them? Has to be somewhat cheaper

[fixyurdivot]

59 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I see that they put you in the KBS TD shaft.  You can find way south of $375;  I bought mine on ebay for $80.  You can easily find them in the $150-175 range.   

You are definitely on the high end range of iron shafts with Accra and VA Composites.    What shafts did you try?

 

 

In the composites for irons; Steelfiber i80, Accra, and KBS TGI 70.  I was really hopeful on the Steelfiber going in as I've heard so many positives but they and the KBS just did not perform well.  In steel, we tried DG300 95, and KBS Tour - none of which performed better than my gamers (Nippon AWT2.0).  

I tested the Mavrik, TS300, D7, Cobra Forge-Tec, and P790 heads.  The Mavrik competed well and maybe slightly better than the G410 and the T300 close behind.  The D7 was not good at all. The Mavrik really felt nice and would make my short list ... as many on the forum gasp for air  .

(note; this picture has the driver and wood shafts we tested).

Sounds like I should be able to find these shafts and get them installed for much less with a little leg work.

[RickyBobby_PR]

18 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

In the composites for irons; Steelfiber i80, Accra, and KBS TGI 70.  I was really hopeful on the Steelfiber going in as I've heard so many positives but they and the KBS just did not perform well.  In steel, we tried DG300 95, and KBS Tour - none of which performed better than my gamers (Nippon AWT2.0).  

I tested the Mavrik, TS300, D7, Cobra Forge-Tec, and P790 heads.  The Mavrik competed well and maybe slightly better than the G410 and the T300 close behind.  The D7 was not good at all. The Mavrik really felt nice and would make my short list ... as many on the forum gasp for air  .

(note; this picture has the driver and wood shafts we tested).

Sounds like I should be able to find these shafts and get them installed for much less with a little leg work.

Check billybobsgolf, Dallas golf, peoples clubs for the shafts. Peoples should be able to do the reshaft too.

 

 

[cnosil]

Just looked up the Accra's and found them for $85 a shaft. 

[Nolan220]

3 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Yeah, and that's only the half of it... quite literally.  Add in the replacement shaft for my G410P driver and the replacement TSi2 woods and shafts, and we're north of $3000.00.  

Moreover, they did not have the correct adapter so that we could not baseline my G400 3w and 5w with that same upgrade shaft.  It may have competed well with the TSi2 and I would definitely want to have that data as part of making a decision.

I have the KBS TD 50 cat 3 in my ping g400sft It was a game changer for my driving 

[fixyurdivot]

12 hours ago, Nolan220 said:

I have the KBS TD 50 cat 3 in my ping g400sft It was a game changer for my driving 

Thanks for the feedback. This "best of the driver shafts" is yielding 9+ additional yards in carry.  That's more than I saw in my H2H test between the G410P and the Razr Fit it replaced during my MGS Tester Review (~4+ yards).  So I think that is significant enough to pursue; particularly since I will likely be able to get that shaft for much less and it's a plug & play. If it dosen't produce I can always sell it and re-install the Alta CB.  He did have me hit the Mavrik driver with the KBS shaft (did not perform as well) and we talked about a couple of others but he said the G410 was a great match.  We discussed shorter length but he said my club at impact numbers were very good and felt the current length was optimum.

Too bad irons don't have the similar shaft attachment system as woods - that would really open up the floodgate for experimentation. 

[Nolan220]

2 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Thanks for the feedback. This "best of the driver shafts" is yielding 9+ additional yards in carry.  That's more than I saw in my H2H test between the G410P and the Razr Fit it replaced during my MGS Tester Review (~4+ yards).  So I think that is significant enough to pursue; particularly since I will likely be able to get that shaft for much less and it's a plug & play. If it dosen't produce I can always sell it and re-install the Alta CB.  He did have me hit the Mavrik driver with the KBS shaft (did not perform as well) and we talked about a couple of others but he said the G410 was a great match.  We discussed shorter length but he said my club at impact numbers were very good and felt the current length was optimum.

Too bad irons don't have the similar shaft attachment system as woods - that would really open up the floodgate for experimentation. 

Thats great, yeah I gained carry yards but my biggest thing was the dispersion all within like 7-10 yards of each other, something like that I did the fitting last Jan so hard to remember, but out of all the shafts I tried that was the clear winner .. and funniest part the fitter was like hmm let me try this one after I tried 4-5 shafts and he was like wow I didn;t think this would beat out the Hzrdus smoke shaft .. 

[fixyurdivot]

25 minutes ago, Nolan220 said:

Thats great, yeah I gained carry yards but my biggest thing was the dispersion all within like 7-10 yards of each other, something like that I did the fitting last Jan so hard to remember, but out of all the shafts I tried that was the clear winner .. and funniest part the fitter was like hmm let me try this one after I tried 4-5 shafts and he was like wow I didn;t think this would beat out the Hzrdus smoke shaft .. 

Yes, that's the fun thing about the fitting process and having a good cross-section of options - when one just pops out and say's "look no further" .  Out of curiosity, what is your driver swing speed?  The KBS shaft is an R but 50g and my Alta CB an S and 55g.  I recall being on the fence between S & R flex when being fitted for the PING but we went with S as it was (based on range ball hitting) yielding less dispersion.

I was just watching a YT video last night with PING and 2nd Swing about PING's standard shaft options and how they are now the only OEM that still co-develops their shafts with shaft mfg.'s for stock options. I've heard many say their Alta series are really good shafts.  This makes me wonder about the "shaft lottery" (quality) point the fitter made.

[Shapotomous]

18 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

....... +8.3 yards isn't peanuts but $192/club installed isn't either.

.......

I've got a solution that gets you the 8.3 yards and saves you $1500......

Check the yardage for the shot & hit one more club than you do now !!!   

...says the guy with an aftermarket Accra in his driver and reshafted his irons with Proj X LZ's....    

If you can do your own shafting work you can save big bucks on that $1500, then resell the shafts you took out to make back a little more $.  If they started putting adapters on iron shafts I'd be divorced probably.   

[Nolan220]

14 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Yes, that's the fun thing about the fitting process and having a good cross-section of options - when one just pops out and say's "look no further" .  Out of curiosity, what is your driver swing speed?  The KBS shaft is an R but 70 g and my Alta CB an S and 55g.  I recall being on the fence between S & R flex when being fitted for the PING but we went with S as it was (based on range ball hitting) yielding less dispersion.

I was just watching a YT video last night with PING and 2nd Swing about PING's standard shaft options and how they are now the only OEM that still co-develops their shafts with shaft mfg.'s for stock options. I've heard many say their Alta series are really good shafts.  This makes me wonder about the "shaft lottery" (quality) point the fitter made.

MY swing speed at the fitting was 94 , so I was fitted with the S at 50g  cat 3 so that has like mid trajectory .. I tend to hit high with a lot of spin, I believe I was like 3500 + and the KBS help dropped the spin to under 3000 and closer to 2600 during the fitting, this is all off the top of my head so I hopefully it makes sense..

[fixyurdivot]

5 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

I've got a solution that gets you the 8.3 yards and saves you $1500......

Check the yardage for the shot & hit one more club than you do now !!!   

...says the guy with an aftermarket Accra in his driver and reshafted his irons with Proj X LZ's....    

If you can do your own shafting work you can save big bucks on that $1500, then resell the shafts you took out to make back a little more $.  If they started putting adapters on iron shafts I'd be divorced probably.   

Yea, no kidding.  All joking aside, I'm finding myself with a frustrating bad case of "the shorties" of late.  I think I'm stuck in the transition of a declining swing speed and my default habit of grabbing club X for distance Y.  The no (monetary) cost trade-off, however, is the higher dispersion likelihood that comes with the lower lofted iron.

I'm kind of surprised the modular plug & play shaft to head system for irons isn't already the standard.  That would be so cool!!

[Shapotomous]

Some loss of yardage possibilities .... lower swing speed, less flexibility, face impact, lie angle, club length, balance during swing, spine angle at impact, clubhead release point, swing path line through impact, scooping or compressing, etc, etc, etc,   I think I have lived through all of these and then some!

I regained some yardage last season I had gradually lost over the years by increasing my flexibility and core strength which translated to higher swing speed as well as picking up a new to me driver / irons shafts combos.  Jacked iron lofts in the JPX900's compared to the 1990 era tour cavity irons also helped!  In my case the shaft changes I did was more about narrowing the shot dispersion rather than additional yardage.

Getting the irons bent to the proper lie angle helped me hit the sweet spot rather than my quite often toe miss which deducted yards.  

There are a lot of things you can address to gain distance back in addition to new shafts.

 

[silver & black]

10 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Yea, no kidding.  All joking aside, I'm finding myself with a frustrating bad case of "the shorties" of late.  I think I'm stuck in the transition of a declining swing speed and my default habit of grabbing club X for distance Y

I can so relate to this! 

This year has been all about what you described, for me. I couldn't hit anything the distance I was used to. I have two bad shoulders, a suspect back and an unusual weakening in my legs. All this combined with turning 61, and I'm left trying to figure out what to do come next season. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by silver & black

[Kenny B]

12 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Yea, no kidding.  All joking aside, I'm finding myself with a frustrating bad case of "the shorties" of late.  I think I'm stuck in the transition of a declining swing speed and my default habit of grabbing club X for distance Y.  The no (monetary) cost trade-off, however, is the higher dispersion likelihood that comes with the lower lofted iron.

I'm kind of surprised the modular plug & play shaft to head system for irons isn't already the standard.  That would be so cool!!

When you get to be my age, you'll hit the ball as far as I do.  

Better get it figured out before MGS PNW 2021.

[Buffly]

It might be worth just keeping the current shafts and getting them PURED to lower the dispersion at about $20 per club plus any head removal and reassembly. 

[null]

7 hours ago, Buffly said:

It might be worth just keeping the current shafts and getting them PURED to lower the dispersion at about $20 per club plus any head removal and reassembly. 

Nope.

Multiple tests from respected people in the industry like Dr Sasha Mackenzie and most recently TXG show that shaft PUREing provides no benefit. 
 

if you want to spend your money and hope placebo effect helps you then go for it, but there is no point spending money on this hoping it will fix dispersion isssues

[Shankster]

I would go somewhere else.  $1500 could get you an entire new new of ironic with a shaft that does nearly the same thing.  I might be missing something but I would not pay $1500 for 8.6 yards or 30... ok maybe 30. But not a centimeter less.

[Nolan220]

1 hour ago, jlukes said:

Nope.

Multiple tests from respected people in the industry like Dr Sasha Mackenzie and most recently TXG show that shaft PUREing provides no benefit. 
 

if you want to spend your money and hope placebo effect helps you then go for it, but there is no point spending money on this hoping it will fix dispersion isssues

My fitter told me this too as I am not as knowledgeable on pure-ing shafts ... he said if I was pro or trying to make a pro tour then it might be worth it .. I was glad he was truthful and didn’t try to up sell me 

[fixyurdivot]

I guess the good news is that my G410's are, short of testing more irons (that sounds fun), an optimum match for me.  Now I'm thinking of picking up another G410 6i or 7i and re-shaft it with the Accra ICWT or the closest, lower cost option.  So the bad news is that, while I'm brand agnostic, I'm not looks/appearance agnostic.  I really do not like glossy black shafts... and wouldn't you know it that the matte black finish on the Accra's is only on stiff shafts .

Yea, I know, it should be ALL ABOUT performance and to heck with appearance... but that's my plight.  I've been researching the Accra ICWT in hopes of finding some information as to how they compare to other composite shafts - offering matte finish and maybe less expensive. Thus far, some say they fall between the Recoil Prototype and Steelfiber i80.  They were the stiffest of the iron shafts I tested (294 cpm) but not by a whole lot.  Obviously that measurement is only a part of the shafts characteristic.

Suggestions?

[Shapotomous]

4 hours ago, jlukes said:

Nope.

Multiple tests from respected people in the industry like Dr Sasha Mackenzie and most recently TXG show that shaft PUREing provides no benefit. 
 

if you want to spend your money and hope placebo effect helps you then go for it, but there is no point spending money on this hoping it will fix dispersion isssues

I think it should be noted the TXG testing was done with high end $$ Accra shafts and it was mentioned by Ian he would have been very disappointed in their overall shaft quality control if there WAS a difference between the pure'd and non pure'd shaft.  I was surprised to hear during their back & forth discussion they even offer puring in their club builds since there isn't any real benefit. 

I fully agree that with current manufacturing technology there probably isn't any benefit to puring.  Maybe if you get a real cheapo shaft you might see some difference if that shaft happens to be at the far end of their sketchy manufacturing tolerance or if the QC guy had a bad night but that would be really rare.  But then again why not pay for the better quality shaft instead of paying the puring money when in all probability it won't need it?

I can say from an experience about 25 - 30 years ago it did have an effect for a 6 iron shaft of mine.  But that was the early, early days of graphite and it was only 1 shaft of about 3 sets worth that I messed around with that i saw a need to check it or saw a change from doing it.  I pulled those graphites and went back to steel on those clubs many years ago.  I think I still have that shaft, if anybody want to drop a head on it and play around with different orientations I'll look for it!