Sticker Shock

[Shapotomous]

11 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

I guess the good news is that my G410's are, short of testing more irons (that sounds fun), an optimum match for me.  Now I'm thinking of picking up another G410 6i or 7i and re-shaft it with the Accra ICWT or the closest, lower cost option.  So the bad news is that, while I'm brand agnostic, I'm not looks/appearance agnostic.  I really do not like glossy black shafts... and wouldn't you know it that the matte black finish on the Accra's is only on stiff shafts .

Yea, I know, it should be ALL ABOUT performance and to heck with appearance... but that's my plight.  I've been researching the Accra ICWT in hopes of finding some information as to how they compare to other composite shafts - offering matte finish and maybe less expensive. Thus far, some say they fall between the Recoil Prototype and Steelfiber i80.  They were the stiffest of the iron shafts I tested (294 cpm) but not by a whole lot.  Obviously that measurement is only a part of the shafts characteristic.

Suggestions?

I like your 7i idea with a couple or 5 shafts!  Maybe even double your fun and try your 2nd place 7i model with those shafts as well!  

[null]

On 12/17/2020 at 3:47 PM, fixyurdivot said:

So the result of my bag fitting yesterday is to re-shaft my G410's (4-UW) with ACCRA ICWT for; +0.1 mph BS, +3.2 mph CHS, +8.3 yards carry, - 3.3 yards dispersion, and -360 rpm spin for $1535.00?  

None of the other club head or shaft combinations (steel and composite) outperformed the Nippon AWT 2.0/G410 I'm bagging... except the ACCRA.  I've never heard of them or Drago; the shaft that was in second place of the composite options.

So I just dropped the news on my wife and she said "just for the shafts?" .  I've taken all the performance gains above and cranked them into a half dozen new math formulas to see if makes sense... so far it doesn't.  I'm curious for those who have opted to choose the aftermarket shaft route, what magnitude in performance gains you had?  +8.3 yards isn't peanuts but $192/club installed isn't either.

Lastly, to those on the forum who are composite shaft specialists, do any lower price, OEM upgrade shafts come to mind that might be very close to the ACCRA ICWT?

It rarely, if ever makes economical sense to restart irons unless you can buy the shafts used and restart yourself. Otherwise it’s just not worth it. Now your performance gains with those accras are pretty awesome. Almost gain a full club of carry. 
 

if I were you I’d wait for the 425 irons, see if they perform the same with the Accra’s and order them new with the Accra’s and sell your g410s. You’ll net out in better shape than if you just reshafted your current sticks. 
 

It’s up to you to say if the performance is worth the cost, but it’s almost never worth it to have old irons reshafted

[fixyurdivot]

So today I had a little extra time before our round and visited the PING kiosk at the pro shop.  They had a 7i G410 green dot and I tested it with a Recoil 780 F3.  I hit it and my 7i and, while I did not have my Swing Caddie with me, ball flight, dispersion, and yardage looked very similar.  My fitter never pulled Recoils for test.  I plan to go back and test them again with my LM but they sure felt good and I like both the matte black and especially the "ion plated" finish...those are cool looking!  These look to be in the $40/shaft range but we'll see about distance.  Even comparable distance and dispersion might be fine for the savings on my joints.

But then @jlukesgoes and throws a wrench in the works with the "wait for the G425's" option.... good God this club ho stuff is a perilous road. 

[Manimal26]

21 hours ago, Buffly said:

It might be worth just keeping the current shafts and getting them PURED to lower the dispersion at about $20 per club plus any head removal and reassembly. 

Who do you know that only charges $20 for sst pure shafts... better yet $20 on a retro pure...

[Manimal26]

@fixyurdivot @dlow206 y’all tag anyone else but here comes a long post... I am coming in hot!!! 

[Onestoptech]

On 12/17/2020 at 12:47 PM, fixyurdivot said:

So the result of my bag fitting yesterday is to re-shaft my G410's (4-UW) with ACCRA ICWT for; +0.1 mph BS, +3.2 mph CHS, +8.3 yards carry, - 3.3 yards dispersion, and -360 rpm spin for $1535.00?  

None of the other club head or shaft combinations (steel and composite) outperformed the Nippon AWT 2.0/G410 I'm bagging... except the ACCRA.  I've never heard of them or Drago; the shaft that was in second place of the composite options.

So I just dropped the news on my wife and she said "just for the shafts?" .  I've taken all the performance gains above and cranked them into a half dozen new math formulas to see if makes sense... so far it doesn't.  I'm curious for those who have opted to choose the aftermarket shaft route, what magnitude in performance gains you had?  +8.3 yards isn't peanuts but $192/club installed isn't either.

Lastly, to those on the forum who are composite shaft specialists, do any lower price, OEM upgrade shafts come to mind that might be very close to the ACCRA ICWT?

Accra only sells to fitters/builders. They are very high quality products. What was the labor cost on the install? I thought I was going composite in my new irons but my fitter felt I could shill hit steel with the nippon modus tour 105 in Flat black. The 105 was an extraordinary light steel shaft that came in at a reasonable $85 per shaft. I also hit blades the best that wasn't even in my thoughts when I went in. Got 6 through pw with nippon shafts for $550. I'm very happy with them.

[Manimal26]

32 minutes ago, Onestoptech said:

Accra only sells to fitters/builders. They are very high quality products.

@Onestoptech ... this is only kind of correct... Accra does only sell to a custom fitter. But when they started they only sold to fitters who held custom component or as the Mizuno loyalist out there will say the head only accounts... this allowed the cost of their products to be offset by the reduced cost of club components. However as the use of Accra shafts started to grow on tour and demand grew they started to sell to “only custom fitters” which requires only one head only account not them all... that coupled with the rise of OEM’s realizing they could make more money by selling directly to the customer or having the custom fitter simply order it from them gave birth to companies that use the guise of fitting to take advantage of people...

Accra does not make any actual product (tech now they might because of being owned by true sports) they source to a foundry who makes it to their specifications and engineering designs... they use to only use Japan based foundries, but to make things more people can afford like BMW did with there $30K cars they had to get cheaper cost which in golf always equals less quality and moving things to China...

 

43 minutes ago, Onestoptech said:

Got 6 through pw with nippon shafts for $550

The fact that you feel $85 a shaft was reasonable means A.) he showed you something more expensive first or B.) congrats you have done well for self and spend your money how ever you please.

 

45 minutes ago, Onestoptech said:

but my fitter felt I could shill hit steel

Of course he did when he is selling a shaft for $85 that cost the same to manufacture as the $39 version... also depending on the OEM let’s use Callaway those same 5 shaft would have been $75 not $550... also for anyone reading this steel will never have the capabilities of graphite...Bryson plays graphite iron shafts... I am sure his fitters question if he is strong enough to still hit steel??? 

I would guess you went to a fitting company affiliated with Swing Science ... but just a guess

[Onestoptech]

2 hours ago, Manimal26 said:

@Onestoptech ... this is only kind of correct... Accra does only sell to a custom fitter. But when they started they only sold to fitters who held custom component or as the Mizuno loyalist out there will say the head only accounts... this allowed the cost of their products to be offset by the reduced cost of club components. However as the use of Accra shafts started to grow on tour and demand grew they started to sell to “only custom fitters” which requires only one head only account not them all... that coupled with the rise of OEM’s realizing they could make more money by selling directly to the customer or having the custom fitter simply order it from them gave birth to companies that use the guise of fitting to take advantage of people...

Accra does not make any actual product (tech now they might because of being owned by true sports) they source to a foundry who makes it to their specifications and engineering designs... they use to only use Japan based foundries, but to make things more people can afford like BMW did with there $30K cars they had to get cheaper cost which in golf always equals less quality and moving things to China...

 

The fact that you feel $85 a shaft was reasonable means A.) he showed you something more expensive first or B.) congrats you have done well for self and spend your money how ever you please.

 

Of course he did when he is selling a shaft for $85 that cost the same to manufacture as the $39 version... also depending on the OEM let’s use Callaway those same 5 shaft would have been $75 not $550... also for anyone reading this steel will never have the capabilities of graphite...Bryson plays graphite iron shafts... I am sure his fitters question if he is strong enough to still hit steel??? 

I would guess you went to a fitting company affiliated with Swing Science ... but just a guess

I was in a comma in 2016 for 9 months told I would never walk again so yes I thought I wasn't ever going to play again. Considering the heads for my 6-pw cheapest I found them were $400. Could have got the nippon modus cheaper your correct but I wanted the flat black shafts with the jet black heads. That was my choice. This is also basically a starter set while I rebuild my game from 5 years of basically only getting to do physical therapy to learn how to walk again. $550 is a cheap set of irons imho. I used Club Champion. I tried kbs tour. Tried project x. Didn't hit any graphite. I was still hitting my 6 iron 194 with a smash of 1.44. I'm very happy that it's been coming back so quickly. I am hoping to start playing our local amateur tournaments next spring. 

 

[Manimal26]

1 hour ago, Onestoptech said:

I was in a comma in 2016 for 9 months told I would never walk again so yes I thought I wasn't ever going to play again. Considering the heads for my 6-pw cheapest I found them were $400. Could have got the nippon modus cheaper your correct but I wanted the flat black shafts with the jet black heads. That was my choice. This is also basically a starter set while I rebuild my game from 5 years of basically only getting to do physical therapy to learn how to walk again. $550 is a cheap set of irons imho. I used Club Champion. I tried kbs tour. Tried project x. Didn't hit any graphite. I was still hitting my 6 iron 194 with a smash of 1.44. I'm very happy that it's been coming back so quickly. I am hoping to start playing our local amateur tournaments next spring. 

 

@Onestoptech that’s incredible! I had a bout with cancer in 2014, and doctors told me very depressing things as well... our journeys are not the same but I just want to say I am glad you did not let some else’s opinion keep you down... I hope you not only compete but win! Any help I can provide let me know! 

[Buffly]

14 hours ago, Manimal26 said:

Who do you know that only charges $20 for sst pure shafts... better yet $20 on a retro pure...

Golfworks. I'm sure it would be extra to remove the head and reinstall it.

[Manimal26]

10 minutes ago, Buffly said:

Golfworks. I'm sure it would be extra to remove the head and reinstall it.

yah okay that is the only place I know and that is when you buy the shaft from them fyi... I honestly dont know if they do the retro pure anymore

[cnosil]

11 minutes ago, Manimal26 said:

yah okay that is the only place I know and that is when you buy the shaft from them fyi... I honestly dont know if they do the retro pure anymore

From the golfworks site:

The GolfWorks performs dis-assembly, PUREing and re-assembly of complete golf clubs. Complete golf club sets require 5-7 days before shipping. For additional information about PUREing services, contact The GolfWorks at 1-800-848-8358.

Based on SSTPure site,  retro puring runs abut $75 a shaft. 

 

 

[fixyurdivot]

So I just found this outfit while poking around the web. PING G410 Custom Irons (golfio.com)  No Accra shafts option but for $130 I can buy a single G410 6i with the Recoil SMC ES780 F3 shaft.  Anyone purchased through golfio.com or know of other like club builders who offer single iron builds?

[fixyurdivot]

Did a follow-up range session with Recoil SMC Wrap ES780 F3 and both the G410 and i500.  This time I had my swing caddie and captured carry, swing speed and ball speed.  I must say these shafts feel really nice.  If I was heading to the TS fitting tomorrow, I would be asking to test these .

                        SS avg.          BS avg.        Carry avg. (limited distance balls)

G410/AWT      82                  98                143

G410/Recoil    81                  100              142

i500/Recoil     83                   99               139

Not much difference between these.  My longest hits were with the AWT's but only by 4-6 yards. Ball flights were very similar with most having the faint baby fade.  I did feel like I was reaching a little with the Recoil as it was standard length.  I'm not sure what standard length is for a 7i graphite shaft but, standing it against my AWT, it looked to be 3/4 inch shorter. I'd love to test this shaft in a a +1/2 length as that, I think, would be a good fit.

My fastest swing/ball speeds were with the i500 - a few up to 104 mph, but probably coincided with off center strikes.  I do love the look of the i500 irons and wonder if PING will elect to add magic goo fill for improved sound and increased distance?  And then their is the question about the G425's and how they will compare to the G410's.

At this point, I'm pretty satisfied that the TS fitting confirms that I'm gaming a near optimum iron configuration.  And with the release of the G425's and ??? around the corner, I would probably be wise to wait on making a change... though I may spring for a 6i with a +1/2 through golfio.com. 

Any thoughts on the length? While I caught several thin with both heads and Recoil, I was getting flush contact most of the time.  

 

[Onestoptech]

I've always preferred to fit to my miss hits. My first stat I always compare is dispersion once that is where I'm happy then I'll consider distance and speed. Picking up 20 yard with a 15 yard dispersion isn't picking up strokes. Most likely going to play worse on my home course (very narrow). I will give up about 2-3 yards of length for each one yard dispersion. 

[fixyurdivot]

On 12/22/2020 at 10:03 PM, Onestoptech said:

I've always preferred to fit to my miss hits. My first stat I always compare is dispersion once that is where I'm happy then I'll consider distance and speed. Picking up 20 yard with a 15 yard dispersion isn't picking up strokes. Most likely going to play worse on my home course (very narrow). I will give up about 2-3 yards of length for each one yard dispersion. 

Totally makes sense. Distance gains with dispersion loss can be no Bueno.  Now maybe +20 carry yards with only 3 yards left and right might work, but yes, something to consider in the distance chase.

The Accra shafts were both longer and tighter grouped but, such as fittings are, based on pretty limited sample size (5-7 shots).  TrueSpec is offering a no cost, repeat fitting with the GCQuad LM.  This will be good in that not only will we get the 3D impact data and really ferret out my shaft length question, I'll be able to see if the Accra holds the #1 spot a second time around and against a couple of other composite shafts we did not try. They'll also have the shaft adapter so I can see how my current 3w performs with the Diamana Thump shaft.

If by chance the PING 425 iron is available by then, that would be an added bonus!

[Golfmanufaktur]

As you already figured out, you can’t get ACCRA shafts directly from any OEM as an upgrade option. The people behind ACCRA decided to stay loyal to their custom Clubmakers customer base even after being acquired by TrueSports. So even, if you would decide on a different set of irons (which really might not be necessary, since the G410s are great irons already), you would have to have them reshafted. Ping doesn’t offer head only accounts to custom shops, since it’s not a good fit to their philosophy and the way, their heads are manufactured. Swing weighting is done with different inserts, glued in during the manufacturing process. A head only account would have to hold a large variety of weights for each different head style, making the stock hard to manage. 
 

Either way, from my personal findings, the ACCRA ICWT perform similar to Recoils, but a bit more precise and a bit firmer feeling in the same weight. I played Recoil Protos for some time and while I had great results when testing the ICWT, I kept the Recoils due to me preferring their feel at impact. 
 

Steelfibre shafts are very different from Recoils and ICWT. Stiffer overall and counterbalanced by a good amount. When building sets in standard length with Steelfibre shafts, I always had to deal with a significant change in swingweight with those shafts. Some players like that feel, while others just hate it and perform very poorly with these shafts or counterbalanced shafts in irons in general. 
 

Another shaft on the very stable side, that you might want to check out, are the PX Catalyst options. If you go from steel to graphite, these might be something you like. 
 

During my fittings, when dealing with players who want to get fit for an iron and the question is about steel vs. Graphite, it normally comes down to 2 things. Once being the price tag. Most steel shafts are just cheaper than their graphite counterparts. There are some stupid expensive steel options out there as well (Oban Steel), but generally speaking, steel is less expensive. The next question is health of the joints. Mainly elbow, wrist and shoulder. If you want to lessen the impact on your body, graphite is the way to go. Once these points are clear, it’s all about finding the best combination of weight/heft/balance, to help the golfer perform to their max potential. And with irons, I don‘t mean the one long shot, but the best mix of distance and dispersion.

I hope, you get a chance to retest and compare the Recoils to the ICWT shaft. I wouldn’t be surprised if the ACCRA still outperforms the Recoils, but it shouldn’t be by a lot. Enjoy the process and don’t let them rip your wallet apart 

Cheers, 

Michael from Germany

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, Golfmanufaktur said:

As you already figured out, you can’t get ACCRA shafts directly from any OEM as an upgrade option. The people behind ACCRA decided to stay loyal to their custom Clubmakers customer base even after being acquired by TrueSports. So even, if you would decide on a different set of irons (which really might not be necessary, since the G410s are great irons already), you would have to have them reshafted. Ping doesn’t offer head only accounts to custom shops, since it’s not a good fit to their philosophy and the way, their heads are manufactured. Swing weighting is done with different inserts, glued in during the manufacturing process. A head only account would have to hold a large variety of weights for each different head style, making the stock hard to manage. 
 

Either way, from my personal findings, the ACCRA ICWT perform similar to Recoils, but a bit more precise and a bit firmer feeling in the same weight. I played Recoil Protos for some time and while I had great results when testing the ICWT, I kept the Recoils due to me preferring their feel at impact. 
 

Steelfibre shafts are very different from Recoils and ICWT. Stiffer overall and counterbalanced by a good amount. When building sets in standard length with Steelfibre shafts, I always had to deal with a significant change in swingweight with those shafts. Some players like that feel, while others just hate it and perform very poorly with these shafts or counterbalanced shafts in irons in general. 
 

Another shaft on the very stable side, that you might want to check out, are the PX Catalyst options. If you go from steel to graphite, these might be something you like. 
 

During my fittings, when dealing with players who want to get fit for an iron and the question is about steel vs. Graphite, it normally comes down to 2 things. Once being the price tag. Most steel shafts are just cheaper than their graphite counterparts. There are some stupid expensive steel options out there as well (Oban Steel), but generally speaking, steel is less expensive. The next question is health of the joints. Mainly elbow, wrist and shoulder. If you want to lessen the impact on your body, graphite is the way to go. Once these points are clear, it’s all about finding the best combination of weight/heft/balance, to help the golfer perform to their max potential. And with irons, I don‘t mean the one long shot, but the best mix of distance and dispersion.

I hope, you get a chance to retest and compare the Recoils to the ICWT shaft. I wouldn’t be surprised if the ACCRA still outperforms the Recoils, but it shouldn’t be by a lot. Enjoy the process and don’t let them rip your wallet apart 

Cheers, 

Michael from Germany

Michael, wow, fantastic input, thanks!  I haven't checked back with the fitter as yet on which Recoil shafts are available but I would be surprised if they don't have most of them. Yes, the Steelfiber i80 definitely felt very stiff and club like to me. Another forum member has suggested Mitsubishi OT iron shafts and I'll see if they have those and/or the PX Catalyst.  Hopefully I'll have several options to compete with the Accra - which are out of the running for both price and aesthetics.  

As for other iron heads, we did not include a Mizuno or Srixon in the first round and I plan to include those the next time... the G410's can't rest too easy yet.

[fixyurdivot]

Just heard back from Truespec.  They do not have the Recoil SMACWrap ES780/F3 stating the they are a "stock offering for PING"... which makes no sense to me as to why they wouldn't have them.  I haven't checked but don't believe these to be a PING exclusive partnership similar to the Alta CB... anyone know?

I can try the OTi and PX Catalyst and see how these compare to the Accra.  It's a real bummer Accra isn't more widely available through major custom builders like TGW .  I guess they have their reasons but on the surface they seem to be limiting sales.

I asked about testing the Mizuno JPX919HM and Forged or the 921's, the Srixon ZX5's and whether they have a date when the G425's will be available.

 

[Kenny B]

9 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Just heard back from Truespec.  They do not have the Recoil SMACWrap ES780/F3 stating the they are a "stock offering for PING"... which makes no sense to me as to why they wouldn't have them.  I haven't checked but don't believe these to be a PING exclusive partnership similar to the Alta CB... anyone know?

The Recoil SmacWrap ES780 is available from Golfworks at $40 per shaft.

[fixyurdivot]

6 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

The Recoil SmacWrap ES780 is available from Golfworks at $40 per shaft.

As a custom order through TGW, they are only $18 upcharge with the G410's .  I could get a new set 4-UW for basically the same price as what I paid for my current gamers.  I just wish I could test that shaft on a LM and at a +1/2".  I've tested it twice now at the range with the G410 head, using my SC200, and the numbers are real close.

I'll see how the OTi and PX Catalyst work and ask the fitter his thoughts on length and this particular Recoil shaft.  One would think Truespec would have virtually everything among the more popular brands.  I just stumbled on this shaft as it happened to be on the PING fitting kiosk at a local pro shop.

Of course, in addition to wanting to test it on a LM and non-standard length, the G425 release is close at hand... 

[Kenny B]

23 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

As a custom order through TGW, they are only $18 upcharge with the G410's .  I could get a new set 4-UW for basically the same price as what I paid for my current gamers.  I just wish I could test that shaft on a LM and at a +1/2".  I've tested it twice now at the range with the G410 head, using my SC200, and the numbers are real close.

I'll see how the OTi and PX Catalyst work and ask the fitter his thoughts on length and this particular Recoil shaft.  One would think Truespec would have virtually everything among the more popular brands.  I just stumbled on this shaft as it happened to be on the PING fitting kiosk at a local pro shop.

Of course, in addition to wanting to test it on a LM and non-standard length, the G425 release is close at hand... 

So, I will see what you end up with this summer!!

[Manimal26]

On 1/8/2021 at 12:16 PM, fixyurdivot said:

Just heard back from Truespec.  They do not have the Recoil SMACWrap ES780/F3 stating the they are a "stock offering for PING"... which makes no sense to me as to why they wouldn't have them.  I haven't checked but don't believe these to be a PING exclusive partnership similar to the Alta CB... anyone know?

I can try the OTi and PX Catalyst and see how these compare to the Accra.  It's a real bummer Accra isn't more widely available through major custom builders like TGW .  I guess they have their reasons but on the surface they seem to be limiting sales.

I asked about testing the Mizuno JPX919HM and Forged or the 921's, the Srixon ZX5's and whether they have a date when the G425's will be available.

 

G425 preorders start today man

[fixyurdivot]

1 minute ago, Manimal26 said:

G425 preorders start today man

I'll definitely delay the redo fitting if I can include those.

[RickyBobby_PR]

On 1/8/2021 at 1:16 PM, fixyurdivot said:

custom builders like TGW

TGW isn’t a custom builder. They are a retail shop. Custom builders would places like peoplesclubs, dallasgolfco or places like txg, club champion, truespwc, etc.

 

[fixyurdivot]

Just now, RickyBobby_PR said:

TGW isn’t a custom builder. They are a retail shop. Custom builders would places like peoplesclubs, dallasgolfco or places like txg, club champion, truespwc, etc.

 

Yup, I subsequently found out from them that clubs ordered through them are built by the OEM's.  I do like their 30/90 "like it or return it" for credit policy.

[fixyurdivot]

Well now, this one may have to be included. I'd like to try the APEX has well; both really great looking irons!

And, what about the new Recoil Dart 75 shafts?  The longer I delay heading back to the fitter, the more difficult this becomes.

 

[cnosil]

Well now, this one may have to be included. I'd like to try the APEX has well; both really great looking irons!
And, what about the new Recoil Dart 75 shafts?  The longer I delay heading back to the fitter, the more difficult this becomes.

 

We can always find a reason to perpetually delay; especially when new clubs are on if out. My cheap nature would fit to models on discount because I don’t think there is that much difference.

[Kenny B]

11 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Well now, this one may have to be included. I'd like to try the APEX has well; both really great looking irons!

And, what about the new Recoil Dart 75 shafts?  The longer I delay heading back to the fitter, the more difficult this becomes.

 

If you wait a little longer, the 2022 clubs will be out.   

[fixyurdivot]

12 minutes ago, cnosil said:

We can always find a reason to perpetually delay; especially when new clubs are on if out. My cheap nature would fit to models on discount because I don’t think there is that much difference.

Yea, I'm with ya and fall right into that buyer category.  Remember, you're talking to a guy that amortized the cost of PE2's for 32 years!  That said, if their in the drawer when I get back to Scottsdale, I'm hitting them