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Your Natural vs. Preferred Shot Shape


MNUte

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The thread asking about our perfect drive got me thinking about this and wondering how many on here have a natural shot shape that matches their preferred one. 

 

With driver, my natural shape is a draw where I'd prefer it to match my ideal drive and go almost dead straight with little movement or shape. 

 

With my irons, I naturally fade or push my shots. And I love that since I take the entire left half of the hole out of play. To me, that's worth its weight in gold for the mental benefits.

 

How about you?

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Natural is a fade but but not by choice. Swing path and face issue on impact. I like the fade though buy need to solve it one of these days. Left is seldom an issue. 

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For years I played a fade that turned into a slice especially with my driver. A few years ago I took a series of lessons from Golf Tec and my fade became a draw that at times gets turned into a hook or even a pull hook.

My ideal shot would be a slight draw


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I am all over but usually play as follows

long irons slight draw

mid/short irons a slight fade

wedges are pulls or pull fades since I swing too long. If I dial back it’s a nice cut

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With my irons I typically hit a baby draw.  If I get a bit quick, that turns into a pull hook.  I can typically count on at least once a round battling that.   With my driver I can go either direction.  When I'm swinging well I hit a slight draw, but as I've gotten older I'm finding that end up a bit stiff and start the round with a few blocks and end it with the draw.  Frustrating when it comes to scoring that's for sure. 

BNewt51

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I used to hit a fade. I spent a year on the range learning to hit a draw, and I've stuck with it since. If I get fast it's a hook, and the occasional push.

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I have not practiced nearly as much as I used to, so I have no natural shot anymore. It is totally unpredictable for me. So "hit-n-hope" is my natural shot shape right now. I fade a few more than draw, and slice a few more than hook, and fat a few more than thin. 

My preferred shot shape is a slight push draw that starts just right and curves back to the target, but I don't think I have ever hit one, never ever. 

My swing is normally on plane or just over the top of it, so my natural shape is either straight or a slight pull to start with the myriad of different curves as a result. Most often, as of late, the fade or slice has been the result.

The worst part is I know what I am doing wrong, and I just haven't taken enough time working out the kinks on the range or testing myself on the course.

Golf is simple - people are complicated.

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1 hour ago, MNUte said:

The thread asking about our perfect drive got me thinking about this and wondering how many on here have a natural shot shape that matches their preferred one. 

With driver, my natural shape is a draw where I'd prefer it to match my ideal drive and go almost dead straight with little movement or shape. 

With my irons, I naturally fade or push my shots. And I love that since I take the entire left half of the hole out of play. To me, that's worth its weight in gold for the mental benefits.

How about you?

My tendency is to hit a draw with longer irons and driver, although as I've worked on my mechanics I've become a lot straighter.  My preference is to hit the shot that gives me the tightest dispersion, I don't have a preconceived "ideal" shape, so right now I prefer a slight draw.  In my opinion, most of us will have a tighter shot pattern if we try to refine what comes natural, instead of fighting it.

I wanted to comment on the concept of "taking one side out of play."  Its impossible.  At a 5 handicap, I'm a bit better than you, but I still miss shots left, and I still miss shots right.  Even presuming that your natural shot is a fade, I guarantee that there are times that you'll pull the shot left of your intended start line, and other times that you'll hit your line but the ball won't fade.  Both of those will result in a miss to the left.  The opposite will be true, you'll start a ball right of your intended start line and it will fade further right, or you'll hit a much bigger fade than normal.  What I HAVE done is to adjust my aiming location (not start line, but where I want the ball to land) away from the worst trouble.

A lot of TV commentators will suggest that since Dustin Johnson hits a little fade, he has eliminated the left side.  Yet statistics show that he misses as many (or more) fairways left as he does right.

  If he hasn't eliminated one side, I'm pretty sure you haven't either.

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Prior to really focusing on the game my natural shot was a fade. Past 2 years off the tee  is straight to draw. Irons draw. When I get "lazy" I go back to that fade. Still get used to the draw though. Missing my irons left a lot.

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Fades.  Everyone loves a fade...

I’m with you man. Baby fades all day long.

Actually. I generally hit my irons and wedges straight with very little movement. But if they do move, it’s generally a fade.

5 wood might favor a slight draw.

Driver is fade all day.


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Driver it's anyone's guess but I'd like to hit a fade consistently if I could. Irons it's straight or a small push, which I can handle but again, if it was something consistant, I could live with it.

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2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

My tendency is to hit a draw with longer irons and driver, although as I've worked on my mechanics I've become a lot straighter.  My preference is to hit the shot that gives me the tightest dispersion, I don't have a preconceived "ideal" shape, so right now I prefer a slight draw.  In my opinion, most of us will have a tighter shot pattern if we try to refine what comes natural, instead of fighting it.

I wanted to comment on the concept of "taking one side out of play."  Its impossible.  At a 5 handicap, I'm a bit better than you, but I still miss shots left, and I still miss shots right.  Even presuming that your natural shot is a fade, I guarantee that there are times that you'll pull the shot left of your intended start line, and other times that you'll hit your line but the ball won't fade.  Both of those will result in a miss to the left.  The opposite will be true, you'll start a ball right of your intended start line and it will fade further right, or you'll hit a much bigger fade than normal.  What I HAVE done is to adjust my aiming location (not start line, but where I want the ball to land) away from the worst trouble.

A lot of TV commentators will suggest that since Dustin Johnson hits a little fade, he has eliminated the left side.  Yet statistics show that he misses as many (or more) fairways left as he does right.

  If he hasn't eliminated one side, I'm pretty sure you haven't either.

As a 5 handicap, you're definitely more than just a bit better than me. That being said, i disagree with your commentary on eliminating half of the course because I think you and the announcers you're pointing to are interpreting it from the point of being an absolute statement, which it isn't.

Of course im going to have shots that go left. And of course the elimination is not 100% or foolproof.  But that doesn't mean it's not true "in my head" for the majority of my shots, which is what matters in my shot process, aiming and commitment to a shot. If we're wanting certainty and absolutes, we're playing the wrong game. 

Knowing that my natural iron shot is a fade or a push, I aim my desired landing spot in a position where a bad shot is fine and a perfect shot is great. E.g. just right of a bunker so that if it's straight and doesn't fade it's fine and if it goes as normal it's well right and in the fairway. To me, that mentally eliminates the trouble to the left of my line. I still will hit pulls and hooks, but I'm not planning for or worrying about them in my set up. Thus, I'm swinging more confidently and have less of a chance of making my own self fulfilling prophecy. That's what I was trying to say in eliminating half the hole, not that I can 100% avoid hitting left. 

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Ping G400 3 wood.

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10 minutes ago, MNUte said:

To me, that mentally eliminates the trouble to the left of my line. I still will hit pulls and hooks, but I'm not planning for or worrying about them in my set up. Thus, I'm swinging more confidently and have less of a chance of making my own self fulfilling prophecy. That's what I was trying to say in eliminating half the hole, not that I can 100% avoid hitting left. 

I understand, and that makes sense to me.  I just object to what I feel are old thought process that recent data disproves.  I guarantee that some people really believe that they can truly eliminate one side of the course.

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I understand, and that makes sense to me.  I just object to what I feel are old thought process that recent data disproves.  I guarantee that some people really believe that they can truly eliminate one side of the course.
I know you're up on your stuff Dave. Where can I find the numbers about eliminating one side? I don't think it can or should be eliminated, but I do think one can work to improve shot shape and dispersion to cut down their misses on the side they don't want to be on. I happy to pound draws all day everyday, but even on my home course I know there's 3 or 4 holes I need to peel off that fade.

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28 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I understand, and that makes sense to me.  I just object to what I feel are old thought process that recent data disproves.  I guarantee that some people really believe that they can truly eliminate one side of the course.

In which case I'd point back to the prior statement that if people are wanting absolutes, they're playing the wrong game.

 

I would also note that as you said, yours is a personal objection based on what you feel and based on a loose memory of data. But without pointing to the particular data, your mention of data disproving the belief doesn't actually provide evidentiary support. Without knowing the factors that affected the data (e.g. course, weather, extent of pull vs. fade), anyone can manipulate data to prove whatever point they're trying to make. There's also the factor that we're not the pros taking those shots, so we can't actually know what they were trying to do and thus how often they actually execute their plan. Most golf statisticians I've seen aren't like MGS: they either provide very basic stats (e.g. averages), or they provide advanced stats in a very narrow context without going into control factors. Thus, you need to put a big asterisk next to most golf data and I haven't seen any particular data aimed at eliminating the "eliminate half the field" thought process.

 

Also, I wouldn't consider the mindset of eliminating half the course as an old or invalid thought process. On the contrary, under a different name and branding, it's just called "put yourself in a spot to play away from the trouble," which is also an "old" process but one that you advocated for earlier.  So it's not the thought process that is at issue, but what you view as an "absolute" interpretation and application of that process. That doesn't render the process itself incorrect, but rather points the error to people misapplying it. Which, to be frank, is golf at its core: people seeking perfection in their own way based on their own interpretations and applications and subsequently running into the issues that arise from those particular interpretations and applications. I mean, you yourself acknowledged that my application of the elimination process makes sense to you, whereas the people guaranteeing it are the ones you take issue with. That's again on the people, not the process. 

 

Edit: on a side note, THANK YOU for being willing to have this discussion. It's a slow day at work and I'm really enjoying your perspective. So thank you for putting up with me. 

Edited by MNUte
Thank you.

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Taylormade R1 driver.

Ping G400 3 wood.

Cleveland Halo Launcher 3 hybrid.

Cleveland CBX launcher irons (5-PW). 

Assorted wedges (48, 52, 58).

Odyssey White Hot Pro 2.0 putter.

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I tend to fade my irons and hit straight drives with a draw tendency but it goes both ways. I have had a lifelong fight with coming over the top (OTT) and that generally leads to fades. The OTT move kills distance and solid shots but my biggest problem is that I've learned to control it and have good scores with a sub-optimal swing. Good scoring makes mentally committing to swing changes hard. My swing problems really manifest when I'm playing a long course that requires accurate mid/long irons to score well.

I really wouldn't say I have a preferred shot shape outside of hitting draws with my driver. Ultimately, I'm working hard to stop the OTT movement for the sake of making the swing easier on the body. Compensating for the OTT movement is harder on the back and makes it tough to be relaxed during the swing. If I could get rid of the OTT problem, I think I can cut my HC in half. 

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With Driver I hit cuts, the miss is a dead left pull: no curve, just 25 yards left of target and dead straight.

With every other club I hit a draw and a poor swing results in a push fade for me.


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When I play I prefer to hit the shot shape that was naturally happening on the range before I started the round.  It could be a fade, straight or draw flight on the warm up and that is what I play for on the first tee.  Generally it works out fine but once in a while there is that first tee shot where I'll be thinking...where did XXX come from after 30 minutes of range time hitting YYY??   I can work it either way when necessary but will generally play the flight shape that I started with on the range.  

The only caveat is if playing in a stiff wind I'll play semi stinger fades all day with every club.

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5 hours ago, B.Boston said:


I’m with you man. Baby fades all day long.

Actually. I generally hit my irons and wedges straight with very little movement. But if they do move, it’s generally a fade.

5 wood might favor a slight draw.

Driver is fade all day.


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I tried to change my swing when I got back into golf, always wanted to hit the high bomb draw because every dang hole that was a dogleg went left on my course growing up, I had to hit pull hooks... little did I know that I should have just been going over top of the trees instead... now, a good fade swing is ruined... it’s gone forever and I am stuck with meh...

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3 hours ago, Tsmithjr9 said:

I know you're up on your stuff Dave. Where can I find the numbers about eliminating one side? I don't think it can or should be eliminated, but I do think one can work to improve shot shape and dispersion to cut down their misses on the side they don't want to be on. I happy to pound draws all day everyday, but even on my home course I know there's 3 or 4 holes I need to peel off that fade.

I took the evaluation from Lou Stagner, who references some fairly detailed statistics in the Tweet I linked.  I can't tell you that I've reviewed the detailed statistics myself.

For the record, what I object to is the idea that playing a specific shape will eliminate one side of the course.  I don't believe that actually happens, and some of the stuff that Lou posts backs that up.  As long as your dispersion pattern is somewhat evenly distributed around a center, and you center the dispersion pattern on your target, you're going to miss some left and some right.  The way to (mostly) eliminate trouble on one side is to adjust your aim so that most of your dispersion pattern avoids the major trouble.  Every Shot Counts (Broadie) goes into pretty significant detail on what the statistics show.  Better players, who typically have tighter dispersions, should aim closer to any trouble to produce the lowest long term scoring, by hitting the fairway more often while still keeping shots into trouble to a pretty low frequency.  High handicappers should aim further from the trouble, even into the rough in some circumstances.  It doesn't matter too much which way you curve the ball, unless the roll can get you into trouble.

So there's my preference, I try to hit my most natural shape, because that will get the tightest dispersion.  I then try to aim so that I minimize (but not eliminate) the amount of real trouble I have to deal with while maximizing the advantages of my good shots.

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Natural shot is a draw from my inside out swing from many years of baseball. Working on a straight/fade to control ball better and be more consistent. 

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On 12/28/2020 at 2:35 PM, MNUte said:

In which case I'd point back to the prior statement that if people are wanting absolutes, they're playing the wrong game.

 

I would also note that as you said, yours is a personal objection based on what you feel and based on a loose memory of data. But without pointing to the particular data, your mention of data disproving the belief doesn't actually provide evidentiary support. Without knowing the factors that affected the data (e.g. course, weather, extent of pull vs. fade), anyone can manipulate data to prove whatever point they're trying to make. There's also the factor that we're not the pros taking those shots, so we can't actually know what they were trying to do and thus how often they actually execute their plan. Most golf statisticians I've seen aren't like MGS: they either provide very basic stats (e.g. averages), or they provide advanced stats in a very narrow context without going into control factors. Thus, you need to put a big asterisk next to most golf data and I haven't seen any particular data aimed at eliminating the "eliminate half the field" thought process.

 

Also, I wouldn't consider the mindset of eliminating half the course as an old or invalid thought process. On the contrary, under a different name and branding, it's just called "put yourself in a spot to play away from the trouble," which is also an "old" process but one that you advocated for earlier.  So it's not the thought process that is at issue, but what you view as an "absolute" interpretation and application of that process. That doesn't render the process itself incorrect, but rather points the error to people misapplying it. Which, to be frank, is golf at its core: people seeking perfection in their own way based on their own interpretations and applications and subsequently running into the issues that arise from those particular interpretations and applications. I mean, you yourself acknowledged that my application of the elimination process makes sense to you, whereas the people guaranteeing it are the ones you take issue with. That's again on the people, not the process. 

 

Edit: on a side note, THANK YOU for being willing to have this discussion. It's a slow day at work and I'm really enjoying your perspective. So thank you for putting up with me. 

and @DaveP043 I'm sorry I missed this discussion as it occurred, but man loved reading the interaction.  Great stuff there. 

I think a lot of people are meaning the same thing but saying it different ways in that discussion of "eliminate one side of the course" and "playing away from danger."  There are days where that is easily achieved and the scores reflect it.  However, there are days no matter how I say it I'm ending up in the sh%& no matter what I attempt to do...Makes for a long exhausting mentally taxing day to say the least!

Thanks for the great read gents!  Really enjoyed it. 

BNewt51

Golf Addict.... Father of 4.  Pennsylvania Golfer 

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Irons:  Titleist T-150 4-PW Steel Fiber CW 110 - Stiff  :titleist-small:

Wedges:  Vokey 48-8 Vokey 54-10 Vokey 58-6 all SM9's  :titleist-small:

Putter:  Scotty Cameron Special Select 5 Flowback (custom shop copper finish) or Bettinardi QB8  :titleist-small:  :bettinardi-small:

Ball:  Pro-V1x :titleist-small:

Titleist Tour Carry Bag Black and White  :titleist-small:

Bushnell Range Finder (Patriot Pack)  

*King of taking (borrowing) all my club ***** friends clubs after they've discarded them after a couple months!

 

 

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Natural is a draw, preferred right now is a fade.

Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X

Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X

Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X

Irons:  Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50D/54V/58D:Nippon:Modus 130 stiff, +1”

Putter:  :edel-golf-1: EAS 1.0

Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX

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Natural and preferred are fades;  just play what you got. 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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Natural is a fade, preferred is a controlled fade. Need to keep it in control so it doesn’t turn into a big slice or weak wipey fade

Follow my golf journey to break into the 80s

Tester for the Titleist TSi Driver

Spring 2020 MGS Tester for the Fujikura Motore X Shaft

Updated 07/15/2022
Driver:callaway-small: Rogue St Max LS - Autoflex
Fairway Woods:callaway-small: Rogue Max St 3HL and 7 Wood
Irons:mizuno-small: JPX 921 Hot Metal 5 to AW - Aerotech Steelfiber i95 Stiff parallel tip
Wedges:ping-small: Glide 4.0 54 and 58
Putter:  :ping-small: PLD Custom Kushin 4

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On 12/28/2020 at 10:16 AM, MNUte said:

The thread asking about our perfect drive got me thinking about this and wondering how many on here have a natural shot shape that matches their preferred one. 

 

With driver, my natural shape is a draw where I'd prefer it to match my ideal drive and go almost dead straight with little movement or shape. 

 

With my irons, I naturally fade or push my shots. And I love that since I take the entire left half of the hole out of play. To me, that's worth its weight in gold for the mental benefits.

 

How about you?

Mine does.  My natural shot shape either a slight draw or dead straight.  At worst, it becomes a strong draw or a slight hook.  It allows me to just aim for the right side of the hole and let the ball drift back to the left.

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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After playing a power fade, OK... slice  🤣  when I started playing golf.  I spent a lot of time learning how to hit the ball straight.  Now my natural shot shape is a slight fade with woods; irons are straight... more or less.  I prefer straight for all shots; I don't get into as much trouble that way.  The only way a ball is going left is if I pull it, which can happen when I'm more sore than normal.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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