What would you change about the Handicap System?

[LICC]

On 1/27/2021 at 5:46 PM, PMookie said:

I don’t like the “could shoot” aspect of GHIN. How about what I AM shooting as an average. I had 20 consecutive rounds at one point this summer: 10 at 76-79, and 10 between 80 and 85. Not sure why it has me at a 4.5 when I’m averaging over 4.5!!!! Weird. 

I agree with this. You would think that at least it would go to your best 10 out of 20 scores instead of 8. But even that isn't as good as an average of the entire 20, or perhaps just throw out your two worst and average the rest.

[DaveP043]

4 hours ago, LICC said:

Why shouldn't the avid golf buddies who play regularly at the local muni be able to use official handicaps for their games together?

There's no question my views come largely through my experience at a private club.  But I don't really see why my ideas couldn't work for public course players.  I'm not smart enough to know how to tie all the technology together, but I feel confident that you could tie a courses reservation system to the GHIN  numbers of the players in each group to facilitate the "pre-registration" part, and send a query to ask the members of the group to attest each other's scores.  Or find a way to attest at the handicap terminal in the pro shop at the course.

4 hours ago, LICC said:

I agree with this. You would think that at least it would go to your best 10 out of 20 scores instead of 8. But even that isn't as good as an average of the entire 20, or perhaps just throw out your two worst and average the rest.

Under the old system, things worked out pretty evenly in matches between higher and lower handicappers.  I believe that using the average of all scores would probably tip the scales a bit too far in favor of the higher-handicappers.  Using too few scores would do the opposite.  I believe it was Australia that used 8/20 under their old system, and I presume they brought their statistics to the table when the 6 handicap systems previously in existence worked out all of the compromises to make the WHS.  

[Tom the Golf Nut]

I didn't want to start another post on handicaps, so I figured this was the best place. Based on all the posts here and some serious thinking on the matter I wanted to get some thoughts from the group.

Lets assume for this you are a 10 handicap. This is based on only playing your club with other players for all rounds, all are recorded in the system, and always played within the rules. You never input any other course scores played elsewhere.

You now enter your first tournament at an unknown course to you. The system will adjust your handicap for the course difficulty and slope rating. So now assume you are assigned an extra stroke. So you are now playing to an 11.

Will you play to an 11. In my opinion probably not. Your 10 handicap was based on playing the same course over and over. Now you are playing an unknown. You don't know what's around the corner on a dog leg, where to lay up. What's over the backside on a green and so on.

So should you keep two handicaps? Are you allowed to keep two handicaps?  One handicap that you keep for your home course and another one that you keep to enter rounds from other courses you play. I'm sure if you played enough of a mix of courses it wouldn't matter but if it was lop sided (98% home course) it would make a big difference.

I'm not knowledgeable enough in the way the system calculates and I don't think the handicap system can compensate for this does it?

[tony@CIC]

5 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

I didn't want to start another post on handicaps, so I figured this was the best place. Based on all the posts here and some serious thinking on the matter I wanted to get some thoughts from the group.

Lets assume for this you are a 10 handicap. This is based on only playing your club with other players for all rounds, all are recorded in the system, and always played within the rules. You never input any other course scores played elsewhere.

You now enter your first tournament at an unknown course to you. The system will adjust your handicap for the course difficulty and slope rating. So now assume you are assigned an extra stroke. So you are now playing to an 11.

Will you play to an 11. In my opinion probably not. Your 10 handicap was based on playing the same course over and over. Now you are playing an unknown. You don't know what's around the corner on a dog leg, where to lay up. What's over the backside on a green and so on.

So should you keep two handicaps? Are you allowed to keep two handicaps?  One handicap that you keep for your home course and another one that you keep to enter rounds from other courses you play. I'm sure if you played enough of a mix of courses it wouldn't matter but if it was lop sided (98% home course) it would make a big difference.

I'm not knowledgeable enough in the way the system calculates and I don't think the handicap system can compensate for this does it?

Spot on. In the summer time we play 95% of our rounds at our club. I know it like the back of my hand yet my handicap gets treated the same way when we come down to Florida courses. The index doesn't take into account lack of course knowledge and environment - meaning dealing with Bermuda grass, etc. So far this winter more than 60% our our play has been at courses we've played for the first time. Can the handicap committee adjust or 'discount' the higher scores? Possibly, but both my wife and I have resigned ourselves to "it is what it is" and just not worry about it. 

[DiscipleofPenick]

I think this is a point dependent on the slope rating of the home course vs. The new or unknown course. Which is why the hcp adjustment exists within the USGA. If your home course is 118 slope and new course 130 it will be tough to shoot your handicap.

I just did a little experiment with the USGA course handicap calculator. Even though I'm a public golfer I play 80% of rounds at 1 course (I buy a season pass to avoid long rounds every weekend). Anyway my course is slope 125 and I carry a 6 hcp at home. A course needs to be a slope of 134 or greater for me to be a 7. There are a half-dozen public courses within an hour of me that I will get that 1 extra stroke on, if I play the tips. Maybe the USGA needs smaller tiers in it's hcp adjustments. But I don't see this being too widespread.

Take Dead Aim

[Siamese Moose]

3 hours ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

I didn't want to start another post on handicaps, so I figured this was the best place. Based on all the posts here and some serious thinking on the matter I wanted to get some thoughts from the group.

Lets assume for this you are a 10 handicap. This is based on only playing your club with other players for all rounds, all are recorded in the system, and always played within the rules. You never input any other course scores played elsewhere.

You now enter your first tournament at an unknown course to you. The system will adjust your handicap for the course difficulty and slope rating. So now assume you are assigned an extra stroke. So you are now playing to an 11.

Will you play to an 11. In my opinion probably not. Your 10 handicap was based on playing the same course over and over. Now you are playing an unknown. You don't know what's around the corner on a dog leg, where to lay up. What's over the backside on a green and so on.

So should you keep two handicaps? Are you allowed to keep two handicaps?  One handicap that you keep for your home course and another one that you keep to enter rounds from other courses you play. I'm sure if you played enough of a mix of courses it wouldn't matter but if it was lop sided (98% home course) it would make a big difference.

I'm not knowledgeable enough in the way the system calculates and I don't think the handicap system can compensate for this does it?

I don't know how you could account for this, but I'll add something similar. I have two courses I consider "home". One is shorter and the rating and slope are quite low, the other one, despite being 600 yards longer, just suits my game. A few years back I was curious, so I calculated my handicap for each course using only the scores from that course. I was 6 strokes lower on the longer course (the difference in rating is just under 3). There's definitely a "courses for horses" effect.

[DaveP043]

6 hours ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

I didn't want to start another post on handicaps, so I figured this was the best place. Based on all the posts here and some serious thinking on the matter I wanted to get some thoughts from the group.

As the OP, this seems an ideal place for you to chime in.  You've identified an aspect of the handicap that isn't ideal.  I agree, I believe most people who play one course for the bulk of their rounds will learn to maximize their game on that course.  When you travel, you're likely to score higher, in general, than you do on your home course.  This appears true for me, in my last 20 are 6 rounds in Orlando, and 8 rounds in the Pinehurst area.  Of those 14 scores, only 3 are in my "best 8".  @Siamese Moose presents another "shortcoming", the course rating system simply won't work the same for players with different strengths and weaknesses.  

6 hours ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

So should you keep two handicaps? Are you allowed to keep two handicaps? 

No, and no.  I just don't think this is a problem for which there is a practical solution.  That's my opinion, perhaps someone could suggest something to make me change my mind.  How would you handle a course in the "middle", one you play 2 or 3 times a year, or a course you've played every year on vacation for the last 10 years.  I suppose the best thing for anyone to do is to play as many different courses as possible, to get as representative a handicap as possible.

[tony@CIC]

6 hours ago, Tsmithjr9 said:

I think this is a point dependent on the slope rating of the home course vs. The new or unknown course. Which is why the hcp adjustment exists within the USGA. If your home course is 118 slope and new course 130 it will be tough to shoot your handicap.
 

I use the handicap calculator all the time and is a great tool but generally play pretty close to the same slope rating and yardage in Florida as my home course in Ohio. What I found is that, for myself at least, it takes a couple of times to really understand the course and how to play it - which results in higher scores. There are other variables that come into play which aren't represented in the slope rating. 

[Tom the Golf Nut]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

  How would you handle a course in the "middle", one you play 2 or 3 times a year, or a course you've played every year on vacation for the last 10 years.  I suppose the best thing for anyone to do is to play as many different courses as possible, to get as representative a handicap as possible.

I don't think the 2 or 3 times a year would effect much because your handicap is based the best 10 of 20 inputs. The odds of those 2 or 3 always being in your top 10 are low. The vacation shouldn't matter either because you would only be looking at one of those ten years and perhaps a couple of rounds. This puts it in the same category as the first scenario. I'm not trying to sway anything but this seems like an issue. Being a member of a club is now a disadvantage to your handicap. That is if you want to play in sanctioned events once in a while utilizing your handicap. 

For me as an example, I am a member of the best course in my area. It's a Robert Trent Jones course. It is less than three miles from my house and the other courses within a reasonable distance are not up to par with mine. Not even close.  So there is no incentive to play other courses that I would have to pay for to have a better representative handicap.

Again this was only a what if scenario, but obviously there is an issue and not a way around this currently. On days I work from home I tend to think to much! No distractions by people coming in and out of my office asking questions. 

[DaveP043]

On 2/3/2021 at 6:30 PM, Tom the Golf Nut said:

I don't think the 2 or 3 times a year would effect much because your handicap is based the best 10 of 20 inputs.

I didn't make that clear, I was thinking about determining a Playing Handicap at a strange course, or one you play relatively rarely, as compared to your Playing Handicap at your home course.  I wasn't really thinking of the effect of playing these "strange" course rounds on your Handicap Index.  Although again, looking back at my last 20, 14 of those are on courses I play just a few times a year or less.  

[Guest]

On 1/18/2021 at 11:13 AM, DaveP043 said:

We're about a year into the World Handicap System in the USGA areas.  What changes do you think would improve the system?  I'm aiming this primarily at US folks, but comments from anywhere are welcome.

I would personally do nothing to the handicap system as is or was... same rules for everyone hopefully everyone follows...

I would though as you speak of being on a "handicap committee" take the money out of member guest's.   Member member tournaments are where the calcutta's should be not member guest tourneys as you cannot regulate or track random guests handicaps....   Member member tournaments at least you know all the participants.   I'm one of the guys who get so tired of listening to membership complaining about someones handicap at a member invitational.   I've played in 30 to 40 over the years and won 1.   Get to the shootout once every 5 or 6 years which is about what average should be and play impecibly by the rules of golf as I know them to be.   I have sat at a couple events tho and gotten into arguments with members about handicap sandbaggers at member invites...just take the money out of it is my simple solution and you would hear almost no complaints....member invitational is a time for friendship and 1st above all showing off the club to the guests in my opinion.   Member member is where money or calcuttas should be held....   anyway sorry to delve into somewhat of another topic...best

[DaveP043]

5 hours ago, JJK2333 said:

take the money out of member guest's. 

As you said, this isn't a handicap system problem, but an individual club's tournament committee problem.  Not necessarily, the handicap committee, usually they don't run the tournaments.  At my home club, we've decided that players whose handicaps can be verified with a phone call will get 100%, players with e-club handicaps get 75%, and the very few players who can only provide a few scores without any kind of handicap will get 50% of the calculated number.  I understand that this does discriminate against some honest players, but there can be a bunch of money at stake.  This is why I always recommend that someone seeking a handicap should join at a specific golf course (public is fine), make sure to talk to the pro or someone with the handicap committee, make sure you're a real person and not just a number in the computer somewhere.

[SD1199]

On 1/27/2021 at 2:25 PM, Tom the Golf Nut said:

Great minds think alike. 

Agree with you guys. Cheaters are always going to find away to cheat.   Most groups I play with don't pay that much attention to validate or in validate a score.  I am probably harder on myself then most people I get put with when playing.   

[CrazyGolfNut]

I play with a guy that does not understand the system and I see where is he coming from. He is a 11.2 and plays the same Gold tee box every round.  When you look up his course handicap on GHIN, his course handicap on Gold is a 7.  The next tee box is White and he is a 9.  The next tee box is Black he is 11 and he never plays the Black or White tee boxes. He believes that if he is playing the Gold box all of the time than his “course” HCP should be equal to HCP.  

[CarlH]

42 minutes ago, CrazyGolfNut said:

I play with a guy that does not understand the system and I see where is he coming from. He is a 11.2 and plays the same Gold tee box every round.  When you look up his course handicap on GHIN, his course handicap on Gold is a 7.  The next tee box is White and he is a 9.  The next tee box is Black he is 11 and he never plays the Black or White tee boxes. He believes that if he is playing the Gold box all of the time than his “course” HCP should be equal to HCP.  

Course handicap takes the slope of the course into consideration.  11.2 is his index, based on his 8 best scores in the last 20 rounds posted.  That 11.2 index carries to any course or tee box he plays and is then further calculated to the individual course.  Some courses are tougher or easier than others but his 11.2 index is standard.  This is why as he goes to tees further back (harder) his handicap will increase.  When he played the gold tees, his course handicap is 7.  Apparently, the gold tees are very easy comparative to average courses.  He he played an relative "average" course/tee box, his course handicap would likely be 11