GolfSpy MPR Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 The announcement came out today: I'm really trying not to have this as a hot take. It's bad form and ugly to pile on a guy who's hurt, and that isn't my intention here. But I wanted to ask this question, just to get a feel of how people think about this. There are sports injuries in which it just looks like the athlete was cursed; for me, Grant Hill comes to mind. Transcendentally amazing at his peak, he just kept breaking down, and it didn't make sense. Other athletes, it seems like their injuries were almost an inevitable outcome of their playing style or training. Tiger's been hurt a lot: None of us know the truth on this question, but I imagine many of us have impressions/opinions: how much do you see Tiger's injuries as bad luck vs. being self-inflicted? [Note: let's not turn this into a debate on the rumors of PEDs. Yes, the rumors exist, including ties to a doctor with issues. But we're not going to get anywhere making accusations based on mere speculation.] fixyurdivot and JohnSmalls 1 1 Quote TS3 9.5°, Tensei Blue CBX T3 15°, Project X HZRDUS Black Epic Super Hybrid 18°, Aerotech Steel Fiber FC HYB S C722 21°, Ventus Blue 8S CBX Iron-Wood 25°, Project X HZRDUS Black 6.0 639 CB, Aldila NV 95 Graphite, 6–PW CBX 48° T22 54° and 60° EAS 4.0, Garsen G-Pro grip TP5x and Tour Response Full WITB with pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2puttbogey Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 It's not overly surprising. His swing in his prime was very violent on his body. Add up all the rounds, and range time. The body can only take so much before things break down. ejgaudette, Nassau, fixyurdivot and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TR1PTIK Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 I'd say it's a fairly good mixture of both, and Tiger's admitted his part to some extent with all the running he used to do. I wouldn't blame it on the gym (necessarily), and I wouldn't blame it on the swing changes he's tried to make over the years (except for maybe the Sean Foley swing - it really wasn't good for Tiger). I'd blame it on lack of technology, knowledge, and expertise. Tiger simply didn't have the tools available to him that golfers do now - tools that might not exist without Tiger's influence IMO. fixyurdivot, Nassau and JohnSmalls 3 Quote Driver: ST190 9.5* Fujikura Atmos Blue 5S Fairway Wood: ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S Hybrid: CLK 17* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB Irons: J40 CB (3-PW) Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100 Wedges: Milled Grind 2 54* & 58* Dynamic Gold S200 Putter: Tri-Hot 5k Two 34" Bag: Players 5 Stand Bag Ball: Maxfli Tour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrogginBullfish Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 There's an antiquated idea that seems to permeate the golf world that spending a lot of time in the gym is a bad thing... But in the case of Tiger, I think a lot of it has been self-inflicted but I think it has a lot more to do with the way he trained than that he trained too much. Just look at Tom Brady. The guy's 43 and still slinging the football like he was in his early 30s and a lot of it is the way he's trained and looked after his body since his ACL injury in 2008.I'd be really interested to see how Tiger would do on a TB12 training regiment or the MAT stuff that Bryson is doing.I follow Mike Carroll, aka Fit For Golf, on Twitter who works with a few Tour guys, and when Tiger was telling Amanda Balionis earlier this year that his training sessions have been so intense that he's ended up puking, Mike was saying that it's just so unnecessary for a golfer to be working to that point. Now I would argue working to that point is unnecessary for any athlete but the overall point stands.Training a lot isn't a problem but training in the wrong way is and a lot of what Tiger has done training-wise just hasn't been optimal, especially with his tendencies for injury.Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app TR1PTIK, BKordon, THEZIPR23 and 2 others 5 Quote DRIVER PXG 0811XF GEN4 (10.5°) FAIRWAY WOODS PXG 0341XF GEN4 (16°) HYBRIDS PXG 0317XF GEN4 (19°), PXG 0317X GEN4 (22°) IRONS PXG 0311T GEN3 (5 - 9) WEDGES TAYLORMADE MG3 (45°, 50°, 55° TW Grind, 60° TW Grind) PUTTER PXG BATTLE READY ONE & DONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNewton51 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 truthfully, he doesn't have anything left to prove. There is Jack and there is Tiger. That's the way it shall always be. While I'd love to see the big cat walking the course and going low, I think he has to consider his long term health and take some SERIOUS time off, if not hang it up. Sad, but there are bigger things in life than just golf. fixyurdivot and tommc23 2 Quote BNewt51 Golf Addict.... Father of 4. Pennsylvania Golfer Driver: Callaway Paradym Triple Diamond - Ventus Red X 3 Wood: TS2 14* Hybrid: Titleist TSI 2 18* (Only used on Soft Rainy days) Utility Irons: 4 iron (Steel Fiber FC 110 - Stiff) Irons: Titleist T-150 4-PW Steel Fiber CW 110 - Stiff Wedges: Vokey 48-8 Vokey 54-10 Vokey 58-6 all SM9's Putter: Scotty Cameron Special Select 5 Flowback (custom shop copper finish) or Bettinardi QB8 Ball: Pro-V1x Titleist Tour Carry Bag Black and White Bushnell Range Finder (Patriot Pack) *King of taking (borrowing) all my club ***** friends clubs after they've discarded them after a couple months! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixyurdivot Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 1 hour ago, GolfSpy MPR said: The announcement came out today: I'm really trying not to have this as a hot take. It's bad form and ugly to pile on a guy who's hurt, and that isn't my intention here. But I wanted to ask this question, just to get a feel of how people think about this. There are sports injuries in which it just looks like the athlete was cursed; for me, Grant Hill comes to mind. Transcendentally amazing at his peak, he just kept breaking down, and it didn't make sense. Other athletes, it seems like their injuries were almost an inevitable outcome of their playing style or training. Tiger's been hurt a lot: None of us know the truth on this question, but I imagine many of us have impressions/opinions: how much do you see Tiger's injuries as bad luck vs. being self-inflicted? [Note: let's not turn this into a debate on the rumors of PEDs. Yes, the rumors exist, including ties to a doctor with issues. But we're not going to get anywhere making accusations based on mere speculation.] I have always wondered if his rather quick bulk-up is responsible? It seemed like over a couple year period he did a mini version of Bryson. Significant changes in physique would seem to change stress on various body parts. In any case, I hope he balances his quality of life (as in mobility and being able to play the game for pure enjoyment) against what is still no doubt a strong desire to add to the list of achievements. Quote G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w ZX5 Irons 4-AW Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW (removed from double secret probation ) ER5v Putter (Evnroll ER5v Official Review) AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Currently Under Product Test) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBT Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 I think a lot of it is due to his “bulking” up and constantly chasing his swing.Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy Quote XR Driver Matrix Ozik 8m3 Black Tie Shaft King F7 3W UST Mamiya Chrome Elements 7F4 Shaft King F7 5W UST Mamiya Chrome Elements 7F4 Shaft King F7 4 Hybrid Graphite Designs Tour AD-HY 95 Shaft PXG 0211 DC 5-PW Mitsubishi MMT 80 Shafts RTX ZIPCORE 50*,54*,58* UST Mamiya Recoil 95 Shafts Metal X Milled #7 with SuperStroke 2.0 grip MTB Twitter: @timldotson Instagram: timldotson Facebook: TimDotson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDontGiveAchuck Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 As someone who has had to deal with back injuries/issues pretty much my entire adult life, first back injury was at age 28, I can say that once that happens it doesn't take much to make that injury re-appear or worsen. So, while the argument that it's self-inflicted could be seen as valid, in my opinion its all down to the nature of the injury. Back injuries are a terrible thing to deal with. xBAGGS, GolfSpy MPR and silver & black 3 Quote Just tap it in. Lil' taparoo. TW747 460 10.5° Vizard stiff 4 Hybrid 699 5-Aw; KBS Tour-V 90 Stiff Tour Action 58° Spider Interactive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xBAGGS Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 1 hour ago, IDontGiveAchuck said: As someone who has had to deal with back injuries/issues pretty much my entire adult life, first back injury was at age 28, I can say that once that happens it doesn't take much to make that injury re-appear or worsen. So, while the argument that it's self-inflicted could be seen as valid, in my opinion its all down to the nature of the injury. Back injuries are a terrible thing to deal with. I agree. I have seen my dad go through the same. 2 back surgeries and it was never the same. Its workable for golf now but it definitely is a hinderance. Nothing a few Bud Lights wont help loosen. I will say his physique is much different than Tiger's! Tiger has put his body through the ringer with just golf and he didn't help himself with the "extra circular" workouts. IDontGiveAchuck 1 Quote Driver: Epic Speed TD LS 9* / Ventus Blue 6X Fairway: Epic Speed 16.5* / Motore X F1 7X Hybrid: CBX 19* / Atmos Blue 7S Irons: JPX 921 Forged 4i, JPX 921 Tour 5i-PW / Rifle 6.0 Wedges: 51.11F RAW, 55.11D RAW, 59.07M RAW / Rifle 6.0 Putter: GSS Dale Head Custom 34.5" Ball: 2021 ProV-1X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrogginBullfish Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 That is a fair point and I'm sure it's part of the problem but I also think having such intense training sessions that you end up puking when you're at his age with his injury history, it's just hard not to still point to it as largely self-inflicted. As someone who has had to deal with back injuries/issues pretty much my entire adult life, first back injury was at age 28, I can say that once that happens it doesn't take much to make that injury re-appear or worsen. So, while the argument that it's self-inflicted could be seen as valid, in my opinion its all down to the nature of the injury. Back injuries are a terrible thing to deal with.Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app IDontGiveAchuck 1 Quote DRIVER PXG 0811XF GEN4 (10.5°) FAIRWAY WOODS PXG 0341XF GEN4 (16°) HYBRIDS PXG 0317XF GEN4 (19°), PXG 0317X GEN4 (22°) IRONS PXG 0311T GEN3 (5 - 9) WEDGES TAYLORMADE MG3 (45°, 50°, 55° TW Grind, 60° TW Grind) PUTTER PXG BATTLE READY ONE & DONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDontGiveAchuck Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 1 minute ago, FrogginBullfish said: That is a fair point and I'm sure it's part of the problem but I also think having such intense training sessions that you end up puking when you're at his age with his injury history, it's just hard not to still point to it as largely self-inflicted. Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app Couldn't agree more. When trying to recover from a back injury, the last thing you should do is push yourself that hard. silver & black 1 Quote Just tap it in. Lil' taparoo. TW747 460 10.5° Vizard stiff 4 Hybrid 699 5-Aw; KBS Tour-V 90 Stiff Tour Action 58° Spider Interactive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny B Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 I think Lee Trevino said back about 5-6 years ago that Tiger would continue to have problems, and so it comes true. Trevino had several back surgeries and had to change his swing dramatically. Tiger can't continue with his current regimen and swing mechanics. He has to change so less pressure is put on his back, and that will include backing off his swing speed a little. I think he is gifted enough to do it, but I seriously doubt that is what he wants to do. silver & black 1 Quote “We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hook DeLoft Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 I wonder if the young Tiger was simply too fast for his frame. Golf Digest published a swing sequence of Tiger when he was 17 or 18 years old. I distinctly remember the article mentioning that he had already had a back issue. To avoid injury, your body has to be able to withstand the forces of deceleration at the end of the swing. I suspect that bulking up actually protected him from injury. If he hadn’t done that he may have only lasted a few years. All just speculation of course. Quote 14 of the following: Ping G430 Max 10.5 degree Callaway 2023 Big Bertha 3 wood set to 17 degrees Cobra F9 Speedback 7/8 wood set at 23.5 degrees Callaway Epic Max 11 wood Ping Eye 2 BeCu 2-SW Mizuno 923 JPX HM HL 6-GW Hogan sand wedge 56 degree bent to 53 Maltby M Series+ 54 degree Ping Glide 3.0 Eye2 58 degree Ping Glide 3.0 60 degree Evnroll ER2 Ping Sigma 2 Anser Cheap Top Flite mallet putter from Dick's, currently holding down first place in the bag TaylorMade Mini Spider Bridgestone XS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeye64 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 He is an elite athlete. Since my life time there has been incredible athletes throughout the gambit of sports who seem to be prone to injury.... THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. I just see him as one of those athletes. He has achieved a lifetime of accomplishments in the sport. Anytime he departs now or in the future I'll certainly never ask.... What could have been... he's already done it all. Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk silver & black 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenGolfer Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Popeye64 said: He is an elite athlete. Since my life time there has been incredible athletes throughout the gambit of sports who seem to be prone to injury.... THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. I just see him as one of those athletes. He has achieved a lifetime of accomplishments in the sport. Anytime he departs now or in the future I'll certainly never ask.... What could have been... he's already done it all. Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk I dont know about all that. When Tiger was younger, he swung so hard and had a swing that is hard on your knees and back. Not to mentiion he spent a lot of time bulking up in the weight room and he ran a lot. All of those things spell joint issue when you get older. I certainly have to disagree with the "no fault of their own" part. I also dont know that Id say hes done it all. Jack still has more majors and the what could have been is just how many majors could Tiger have won if he hadnt been so hard on his body when he was younger and if he hadnt wasted so many years on all of the off-course nonsense that he brought upon himself. Tiger should have gone down in history as the undesputed greatest golfer ever but I dont see him catching, much less passing Jack in terms of major wins and thats always going to be an argument of those who say Tiger isnt the GOAT. Ive got the utmost of respect for Tiger but if we're going to tell it like it is, well, there it is. Quote "I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag? Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02 Ball: Maxfli Tour X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver & black Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 I'm not sure how bulking up... building muscle... or anything else one does to improve physically, is detrimental to any kind of athletic endeavor.... or anything in life, to be honest. Unless one uses steroids or another means that is proven to be harmful, I just disagree totally with the notion that being fit and putting on muscle is a detriment to future health. I understand how a wrong swing can put stress on a body. I'm sure that has a lot to do with Tiger's current physical problems but, I don't attribute them to his work out regimen. Just my .02. Chip Strokes and yungkory 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah T Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 I think it has more to do with how much running he used to do than lifting weights. Add in a violent swing plus how many millions of swings pre - adulthood and there you go. Look at Trevino, Palmer, and Nicklaus: they allow the front foot to move in their swing and relieve all that knee pressure...Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy Quote Driver - Cobra LtDxLS 3 Wood - Ping g410 LST 2iron - Titleist U505 Irons - Ping i59 Wedges - Vokey Sm9 Putter - Mizuno Mcraft IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middler Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 On 1/19/2021 at 6:13 PM, 2puttbogey said: It's not overly surprising. His swing in his prime was very violent on his body. Add up all the rounds, and range time. The body can only take so much before things break down. That's what I'd say too. My Dad was an ortho surgeon and when he watched Tiger (from the early years) he said 'that guy is going to have serious back problems when he gets older.' But it's Tiger's body and his life, so I'm not sure what difference it makes what random fans might think - what do we know? Seems like he's done pretty well for himself. 2puttbogey 1 Quote Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize Evnroll EV5.3 Maxfli Tour & ProV1 Ping Pioneer - MGI Zip Navigator AT Payntr X 002 LE, Ecco Biom C4, FJ DryJoys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Strokes Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 2 hours ago, silver & black said: I'm not sure how bulking up... building muscle... or anything else one does to improve physically, is detrimental to any kind of athletic endeavor.... or anything in life, to be honest. Unless one uses steroids or another means that is proven to be harmful, I just disagree totally with the notion that being fit and putting on muscle is a detriment to future health. I understand how a wrong swing can put stress on a body. I'm sure that has a lot to do with Tiger's current physical problems but, I don't attribute them to his work out regimen. Just my .02. 100% correct building muscle and gaining strength will never be hindrances in athletic endeavors or in long term wellness. they will only help your body handle the stresses of your sport and recover more quickly and fully. as for anyone who has back, hip, knee, or shoulder issues who has a doctor that tells you to stay away from strengthening the area: please find a new doctor. silver & black 1 Quote SIM2 8º | KuroKage XD 70TX SIM 3W 14º | Fujikura Atmos Black Tour Spec 9TX SIM2 5W 18º | Fujikura Ventus Black 10X U500 2i | Fujikura Ventus HB Black 10TX T100 4-PW | Dynamic Gold X7 SM6 52* SM8 56* SM8 60* | Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100 DW | BGT Stability Tour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hook DeLoft Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 On 1/23/2021 at 1:02 PM, Micah T said: I think it has more to do with how much running he used to do than lifting weights. Add in a violent swing plus how many millions of swings pre - adulthood and there you go. Look at Trevino, Palmer, and Nicklaus: they allow the front foot to move in their swing and relieve all that knee pressure... Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy Harvey Penick thought that keeping the left heel on the ground was a recipe for back problems. Micah T 1 Quote 14 of the following: Ping G430 Max 10.5 degree Callaway 2023 Big Bertha 3 wood set to 17 degrees Cobra F9 Speedback 7/8 wood set at 23.5 degrees Callaway Epic Max 11 wood Ping Eye 2 BeCu 2-SW Mizuno 923 JPX HM HL 6-GW Hogan sand wedge 56 degree bent to 53 Maltby M Series+ 54 degree Ping Glide 3.0 Eye2 58 degree Ping Glide 3.0 60 degree Evnroll ER2 Ping Sigma 2 Anser Cheap Top Flite mallet putter from Dick's, currently holding down first place in the bag TaylorMade Mini Spider Bridgestone XS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixyurdivot Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 On 1/23/2021 at 10:45 AM, silver & black said: I just disagree totally with the notion that being fit and putting on muscle is a detriment to future health. It's not his future health we're talking about. My thinking here is that the fairly rapid changes in physical stature may have changed/accelerated stress on the knee and back areas from a not so passive to start with golf swing. Quote G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w ZX5 Irons 4-AW Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW (removed from double secret probation ) ER5v Putter (Evnroll ER5v Official Review) AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Currently Under Product Test) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver & black Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 1 minute ago, fixyurdivot said: It's not his future health we're talking about. My thinking here is that the fairly rapid changes in physical stature may have changed/accelerated stress on the knee and back areas from a not so passive to start with golf swing. Well.... his "future" health is now, if I understand this discussion. Unless she was on steroids when he was doing his Green Beret??? work outs, I don't think his changes were rapid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixyurdivot Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 55 minutes ago, silver & black said: Well.... his "future" health is now, if I understand this discussion. Unless she was on steroids when he was doing his Green Beret??? work outs, I don't think his changes were rapid? I don't believe he used any illegal substance but he did seem to bulk up pretty quick. Switching gears a little, I do hope he will consider his future health and balance it with his desire to compete. I'm sure Charlie would like to play rounds with him for years to come. silver & black 1 Quote G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w ZX5 Irons 4-AW Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW (removed from double secret probation ) ER5v Putter (Evnroll ER5v Official Review) AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Currently Under Product Test) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowNLow Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 While whatever caused his initial injury is debatable, what isn't debatable is once you go through a surgery like that on your lower back, you are never going to be same. Anybody who has a surgery on their back and comes out much improved without needing further revision surgeries is truly blessed. Finally, if a guy like Tiger Woods with all of his fortune and access to the best medical care on the planet still has problems, it shows how nasty back injuries are. As a receipent of bi-literal hip resurfacing, I can't explain what is it like to suffer pre-surgery, have an operation, then not be able to remember what it felt like to be able to move without pain pre-surgery. All you know your body has been changed forever, and there is no returning to what you were. It really is a sobering, humbling experience. silver & black, fixyurdivot and Kenny B 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver & black Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 20 hours ago, SlowNLow said: While whatever caused his initial injury is debatable, what isn't debatable is once you go through a surgery like that on your lower back, you are never going to be same. Anybody who has a surgery on their back and comes out much improved without needing further revision surgeries is truly blessed. Finally, if a guy like Tiger Woods with all of his fortune and access to the best medical care on the planet still has problems, it shows how nasty back injuries are. As a receipent of bi-literal hip resurfacing, I can't explain what is it like to suffer pre-surgery, have an operation, then not be able to remember what it felt like to be able to move without pain pre-surgery. All you know your body has been changed forever, and there is no returning to what you were. It really is a sobering, humbling experience. I agree. I have been dealing with low back problems on and off for the last 35 years. It seems like after you injure your back there is no way it is ever "normal" again.... surgery or not. Kenny B 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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