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NPG Episode 70: Are Fittings Going Virtual?


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Duration: 00:48:39

In-person club fittings were already troublesome, and that was before a global pandemic. Are virtual fittings the wave of the future?

0:30 - Putter testing check-in
1:23 - Are in-person club fittings a thing of the past?
24:13 - What to look for in a virtual fitting
30:32 - A better way to handicap with TheGrint
43:14 - What would you change about golf?

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I can foresee this episode getting more than a few people fired up!!

I would rather trade off turf interaction with real, appropriate and unbiased data.  I'm a big supporter of keeping things "old school", but I love the idea of some A.I. giving me real analytics.

Duration: 00:48:39 In-person club fittings were already troublesome, and that was before a global pandemic. Are virtual fittings the wave of the future? 0:30 - Putter testing check-in 1:23 - Ar

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I can foresee this episode getting more than a few people fired up!!

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Just tap it in.  Lil' taparoo.

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The only problem with virtual is you don't get turf interaction and looks at address like you guys described. I do think data fittings are the way to do it to get 5 selection and then go test them. If people could do that, and then get to test them on the course for $50, that is they way to do it

 

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2H: :callaway-small: Super Hybrid with Tensei Orange Pro Hyb 80 Stiff (shaft may be swapped at some point) 

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1 minute ago, rbsiedsc said:

The only problem with virtual is you don't get turf interaction and looks at address like you guys described. I do think data fittings are the way to do it to get 5 selection and then go test them. If people could do that, and then get to test them on the course for $50, that is they way to do it

 

I would rather trade off turf interaction with real, appropriate and unbiased data.  I'm a big supporter of keeping things "old school", but I love the idea of some A.I. giving me real analytics.

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Just tap it in.  Lil' taparoo.

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:adams-small: Hybrid

:ping-small: Eye2 Irons 3-P :Nippon:Zelos 8 stiff shafts

:cleveland-small: Tour Action 54°/58°

:taylormade-small: Spider Interactive

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I agree with a lot of this fitting talk. It does feel like the industry is lagging, and the other big problem is finding a reliable fitter. 

However, the industry needs to advance when it comes to the questions you get when it comes to a fitting before we can go all virtual. Swing speed, attack angle, club path, etc. 

Even TrueGolfFit asks attack angle and swing speed, but you have to go somewhere to find that information. It is not readily available.

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So with TrueFit, how do you input your on course data (if you can) because it seems pretty subjective on how you swing the club (since we are all honest or knowledgeable of our own swings :p)

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2H: :callaway-small: Super Hybrid with Tensei Orange Pro Hyb 80 Stiff (shaft may be swapped at some point) 

3H: :Sub70: 939X UST proforce V2 black F3 hybrid soft stepped XStiff UPRT setting 

4-AW: th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg  0211  with KBS Tour Stiff 2.5* up 1/4" long Unofficial Review

Wedges     :cleveland-small: Zipcore Tour Rack 54/full and 58/mid (review here)  (Backup 54*,60*: :ping-small:  S Tour KBS Tour Stiff 3* up)

Putter: :taylormade-small: Corza Ghost 35" ( Benched :odyssey-small: Toulon Las Vegas Stroke Lab  34")

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This one hit all the points GREAT!  I absolutely loved the discussion of music on the course!  Flashed back to a tourny this year where my partner and I rolled up to the first tee with a low tone music playing in the cart.  You could NOT hear it (Can't stress that enough)on the tee, that's how low it was, and the older guy on the tee made a b-line right to me so he could exclaim "I'm easily distracted.. Turn that SH*T off..."  🤣  While I laughed in his face momentarily, I calmly pointed out that one closer step towards me golf might be the last thing he EVER had to worry about again.. BUT, to be respectful we turned it off. 

I think that's definitely indicative though of one of Golf's biggest problems.  I'm all for rules, decorum, etc.. BUT... When it comes to the game and how it's conducted and or people act it's far to stuck on itself.  The evolution of the "sport" / "game" just is miles behind and really needs to understand you chase away more people than you attract by acting elitest and firmly stuck in stuffyville. 

Now don't get wrong, I'm not party guy or crazy on the course but if two people in a cart can agree that music should be played at a low tone so that no one else is affected then anyone outside of that cart should just worry about themselves, and by all means stay the hell away from our cart.  Simple. 

Great show once again!  Content king of shows imo. 

BNewt51

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So I can see myself utilizing more and more computer based fits, but I feel like the result is only as good as the inputs you throw at it.

I would like to see a system (maybe True Golf Fit could handle this):

  • Swing Speed
  • Attack Angle
  • Face Angle
  • Impact Tendency (toe vs heel and high vs low)
  • CURRENT SETUP
  • FEEL PREFERENCES

I think that True Golf Fit could easily handle all but the last two.  It would be up to the consumer to know their key data points and that likely needs to come from renting sim time on a quality unit like GC Quad and Trackman.  

I haven't seen a single online tool that asks what you're currently using, and I feel like that would be important if you're going to show my how many yards or accuracy I can gain.  

Lastly feel preferences can be easily handled with a person fitting you and reacting to your feedback.  This could be handled with a few more questions for sure like past equipment that was liked and worked well, etc.  

I might pony up and give TRUEgolffit a try, then go demo the driver and see how well it does!

 

Either way, I fully expect virtual fittings to get more and more comprehensive, then with perhaps a top 3 us golfers can go and demo them all and decide for ourselves.  

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3 hours ago, IDontGiveAchuck said:

I can foresee this episode getting more than a few people fired up!!

Idk about 'fired up' but I did go ahead and try the $9 TrueGolfFit driver fitting and well... I'm less than impressed. Both of the options it recommended for me are unavailable. and since it doesn't have any additional information about what makes these drivers better (or what a larger list of options might look like) I can't make an informed decision, which suggests I should... go to an in-person fitter 😕

 

569717499_Screenshot_2021-02-01TRUEGolfFit.png.420e92162d5bfa668069fc59c838d6a7.png

1263331927_Screenshot_2021-02-01TRUEGolfFit(1).png.7062b4cf9b5a42af3f5c764b71d36aae.png

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49 minutes ago, greggarner said:

Idk about 'fired up' but I did go ahead and try the $9 TrueGolfFit driver fitting and well... I'm less than impressed. Both of the options it recommended for me are unavailable. and since it doesn't have any additional information about what makes these drivers better (or what a larger list of options might look like) I can't make an informed decision, which suggests I should... go to an in-person fitter 😕

 

569717499_Screenshot_2021-02-01TRUEGolfFit.png.420e92162d5bfa668069fc59c838d6a7.png

1263331927_Screenshot_2021-02-01TRUEGolfFit(1).png.7062b4cf9b5a42af3f5c764b71d36aae.png

Same here. It just didn't work for me - but then I guess we're all different so we need lots of options. 

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I could see a mix of the two fitting experiences......maybe have the camera system at the fitting location record metrics in your swing and then have the ability for it to apply those metrics to a database of clubs, shafts and adjustments and then give the fitter 3-4 options to try out.

Kind of like the shaft optimizer but for the whole process


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1 hour ago, tony@CIC said:

Same here. It just didn't work for me - but then I guess we're all different so we need lots of options. 

Ya i got the same PXG driver (ugh) and the Ping G410 which I can't customize on 2nd swing to a different shaft. Maybe the new offerings are not in there yet?

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2H: :callaway-small: Super Hybrid with Tensei Orange Pro Hyb 80 Stiff (shaft may be swapped at some point) 

3H: :Sub70: 939X UST proforce V2 black F3 hybrid soft stepped XStiff UPRT setting 

4-AW: th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg  0211  with KBS Tour Stiff 2.5* up 1/4" long Unofficial Review

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I’d like some of whatever Adam is smoking here
Unless ShotScope releases V4 next year fully equipped with Trackman and a Mizuno shaft optimizer, online fittings aren’t passing real fittings any time soon. The technology is just not there.


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51 minutes ago, TBT said:

I could see a mix of the two fitting experiences......maybe have the camera system at the fitting location record metrics in your swing and then have the ability for it to apply those metrics to a database of clubs, shafts and adjustments and then give the fitter 3-4 options to try out.

Kind of like the shaft optimizer but for the whole process


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This is my thought as well. Some sort of system like the Mizuno shaft optimizer but that applies to clubheads, balls, everything. I am sure someone could engineer it, and I am sure it will happen eventually, no idea when. 

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I agree with many others that the combination would be the ideal scenario for me. Also I would have to imagine a company like Foresight if they were able to partner with their fitters and have them tagging data appropriately for club used and shaft and other data points that combined with full club and ball day could quickly develop a data set that could produce some decent results and even apply strokes gained to it all. As someone in the data analytics/data science field and golf nut it sounds like a very interesting project to be sure. Heck even the MSG testing for drivers would produce a pretty good data set.

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13 hours ago, rbsiedsc said:

Maybe the new offerings are not in there yet?

This is a more structural problem with online fittings like TrueGolfFit. If the database only works on released equipment, it necessarily means you aren't going to get the latest release, since there haven't been 10,000 shots tracked with it. Additionally (and somewhat conversely), unless there's some way to cull the list when products are no longer available, it's (at best) an interesting exercise to expand your horizons beyond the Big Five. In my example, getting "fit" for a Wilson Cortex is interesting but not relevant unless I happen to find it at a bargain somewhere with just the right shaft in it.

As I wondered originally, having some context as to why these drivers and shafts would be good fits for me would help me evaluate comparable products. As the database grows, statistical correlations could be developed and it isn't much of a stretch to extrapolate specific variables as more/less beneficial based on the fitting questions asked. For example, since the PXG I was fit for is no longer available, could I get the new 0811 X Prototype? Or is it a completely different driver? And since the Cortex is 3 years old and difficult to customize (currently available on Wilson's site only in a 12-degree Atmos Red Senior Flex...), could I get a D7? Or the new D9?

I don't disagree with Adam's point that you don't want to go to multiple doctors to get several different opinions on what disease you might have, but just in the same way that doctors give a more accurate diagnosis than WebMD, it's helpful to have a trained professional who has a deeper understanding of what does(n't) work than someone just putting in their best guesses and seeing what the database returns.

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Driver: :callaway-small: Epic Flash Subzero 9* with HZDRUS Smoke stiff
4-wood: :callaway-small: Mavrik Subzero (16.5*) with Aldila Rogue White 130 MSI X
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Using :Arccos: to keep track of my shots
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This is a more structural problem with online fittings like TrueGolfFit. If the database only works on released equipment, it necessarily means you aren't going to get the latest release, since there haven't been 10,000 shots tracked with it. Additionally (and somewhat conversely), unless there's some way to cull the list when products are no longer available, it's (at best) an interesting exercise to expand your horizons beyond the Big Five. In my example, getting "fit" for a Wilson Cortex is interesting but not relevant unless I happen to find it at a bargain somewhere with just the right shaft in it.
As I wondered originally, having some context as to why these drivers and shafts would be good fits for me would help me evaluate comparable products. As the database grows, statistical correlations could be developed and it isn't much of a stretch to extrapolate specific variables as more/less beneficial based on the fitting questions asked. For example, since the PXG I was fit for is no longer available, could I get the new 0811 X Prototype? Or is it a completely different driver? And since the Cortex is 3 years old and difficult to customize (currently available on Wilson's site only in a 12-degree Atmos Red Senior Flex...), could I get a D7? Or the new D9?
I don't disagree with Adam's point that you don't want to go to multiple doctors to get several different opinions on what disease you might have, but just in the same way that doctors give a more accurate diagnosis than WebMD, it's helpful to have a trained professional who has a deeper understanding of what does(n't) work than someone just putting in their best guesses and seeing what the database returns.

This is why we need an updated 2021 driver COG report. You can take those recommendations and see if anything is in that area and see what types of drivers should “fit” you best.

Have they added shaft recommendations? I think at one point there was talk of that, but I don’t remember if it actually happened.

EDIT: I can see that they have shaft there too

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As the panel pointed out, there are more bad fitters out there (paid and free) than good ones, so fittings can be useless. I got fit for a new driver shaft at Club Champion last year, and it didn't work out at all, that $400+ shaft ($150 the fitting itself) is gathering dust in my closet.

More data would be great, and TrueGolfFit may be a step in the right direction, although that only does drivers so far and reviews have been mixed.

I used the Mizuno Shaft Analyzer to my last set of irons, and that has served me well. They've upgraded that device with the Shaft Optimizer 3D, and that will be my first step next time I'm in the market for new irons if not a full set.

YMMV

*** while I was listening to the episode, I wondered why club makers who offer a variety of standard shafts don't just publish exactly which shaft is best suited to the various swing characteristics - in table form or other.

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On 2/2/2021 at 7:49 AM, Middler said:

*** while I was listening to the episode, I wondered why club makers who offer a variety of standard shafts don't just publish exactly which shaft is best suited to the various swing characteristics - in table form or other.

I suspect this would be confusing to most consumers. The ones that really want this information are likely to research the individual shaft options themselves.

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13 hours ago, Ryan M said:

I suspect this would be confusing to most consumers. The ones that really want this information are likely to research the individual shaft options themselves.

it's a pretty dedicated consumer who is willing to wade through this

This brings up an interesting point though: what does the Venn diagram look like of "people who care enough to research shaft options" and "people who won't get fit for golf clubs"? I would imagine there's not much overlap there... If you don't value getting fit, do you really care that much about bend profiles, kick points, etc?

Driver: :callaway-small: Epic Flash Subzero 9* with HZDRUS Smoke stiff
4-wood: :callaway-small: Mavrik Subzero (16.5*) with Aldila Rogue White 130 MSI X
2i: :srixon-small: ZX with SteelFiber i95cw Stiff
Wet/Soft: 3i-PW
:wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged, KBS Tour-V 110S
Hard/Fast: 4i-7i :srixon-small: ZX7, 8i-PW Z-Forged, Modus3 Tour 120 S

50*, 54*, 60* :vokey-small: SM7 TT DG S200
Putter: :ping-small: Redwood Piper 0*

Ball: :srixon-small: Z STAR XV (but I'm not just going to leave a perfectly good ProV1/x laying around...)
Bag: :ping-small: Hoofer (2018) in black/white/copper

Using :Arccos: to keep track of my shots
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Tested:
:wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged 3i-PW, KBS Tour-V 110S - Official Review

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