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Planned 2030 Golf Ball Rollback


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584 members have voted

  1. 1. Are you in favor of the rollback?

    • Yes
      81
    • No
      400
    • Don't Care
      103
  2. 2. Do you watch or care about the PGA Tour and other professional Tours?

    • Yes
      529
    • No
      21
    • Don't Care
      34
  3. 3. Do you wish there was a Tour Only golf ball?

    • Yes
      200
    • No
      237
    • Don't Care
      147
  4. 4. Do you want to play all the same equipment like the pros play?

    • Yes
      215
    • No
      143
    • Don't Care
      226
  5. 5. Do you feel your game will be dramatically effected by the rollback in 2030?

    • Yes
      230
    • No
      240
    • Don't know
      114
  6. 6. Will loosing any distance take away significant enjoyment in golfing for you?

    • Yes
      300
    • No
      158
    • Probably not
      126
  7. 7. Would you quit golf because of the rollback?

    • Yes
      25
    • No
      559
  8. 8. Would you prefer bifurcation?

    • Yes
      268
    • No
      202
    • Don't Care
      114
  9. 9. Is this all too early and we need to wait and see what more will happen over the next few years?

    • Definitely
      261
    • No, this needs to be addressed now
      262
    • Don't care
      61

This poll is closed to new votes


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10 hours ago, cnosil said:

The boom was because of Tiger Woods.  Also,  if equipment was such a limitation,  why were long drive competitors able to do this:

  • 1990 – Frank Miller, 328 yards
  • 1991 – Art Sellinger, 326 yards
  • 1992 – Monte Scheinblum 329 yards
  • 1993 – Brian Pavlet, 336 yards
  • 1994 – Darryl Anderson, 345 yards
  • 1995 – Sean Fister, 362 yards
  • 1996 – Jason Zuback (🇨🇦Canada) 351 yards
  • 1997 – Jason Zuback (🇨🇦Canada) 412 yards
  • 1998 – Jason Zuback (🇨🇦Canada) 361 yards
  • 1999 – Jason Zuback (🇨🇦Canada) 376 yards
  • 2000 – Viktor Johansson (🇸🇪Sweden) 315 yards

Todays players would have the ability to accomplish those same distances if they were using clubs from the 90s because they swing faster than tour players from the 90s.  That is not an equipment thing but a physical ability thing.  

I do know the difference; you said longer, not a category.  A GW is longer than a SW; so a 1 club "reduction" is all you are looking for?

In your opinion they aren't complicated issues.  

In your opinion the Tour game has been degraded.  

Your last statement is really your problem statement and what you think needs to be fixed:  " The problem is that the Tour game has been degraded by the massive distance gains from equipment advances. I detailed how earlier. It’s still good to watch for golf fans, but it could be better."

I don't see the tour game as being degraded by massive distance gains.  How those gain were achieved is not important because people were able to exceed 400 yards with 90s equipment.   But I personally enjoy the state of the game and hope it doesn't change. 

The boom was driven by Tiger Woods, but the distances players were hitting then didn't detract from the popularity.

Long-Drive competitions are circus shows. I'm talking about the Tour. LD competitors use different drivers- longer shafts than permitted on Tour, and setups that are for hitting one out of five to stay on a football sized width. They don't have any consideration for accuracy. The comparison is apples to oranges.

I absolutely disagree that today's players would hit the same distance with 1990s equipment that they do today. That is an incredibly unreasonable claim. Human athletic advancement hasn't made a quantum leap in 25 years. Of course the players swing faster because of the equipment, not because of advanced physical ability. The materials used to make the clubheads are lighter, the shapes are more aerodynamic, the shaft material is better. All of that increases the clubhead speed. Just look at the Champions Tour. These same guys in their 50s and 60s using modern equipment are hitting it 20-30 yards farther than they did in their 20s with the 1990 equipment. Just look at the times Tour players hit the older equipment and couldn't hit it any farther than the players from back in the day. These are direct examples.

I'll copy wikipedia for you: The irons from 2 to 4 are typically called the "long irons"; they have the lowest lofts and the longest shafts, and are designed to hit the ball long distances (180-260 yards) with low launch angles. ... The irons from 5 to 7 are typically called the "mid irons", and are generally used from the fairway and rough for longer approach shots, between 130-210 yards depending on the club, player and course. ... The 8 and 9 irons are commonly called the "short irons". They have the highest-mass clubheads and the shortest shafts of the numbered irons, and are used for shots requiring high loft or moderate to short distance (typically between 130 and 150 yards with a full swing). ... Wedges are a subclass of irons with higher loft than numbered irons, used for a variety of specialized "utility" shots that require short distance (typically less than 130 yards), high launch angle, or high backspin to reduce roll distance. 

We disagree about the way the Tour game is played now. I think it would be better if the players had to make more strategic decision based on the risk-reward design of the golf course, and if there was more variety in how players had to play different holes. You like the bomb-and-wedge it style that takes away risk-reward decisions, angles, and choices for ball placement. Agree to disagree.

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Here’s an article on Molinari and his distance gain, which was changing his swing approach and also working out. A couple things to takeaway IMO 1) it took awhile with the swing 2) his coach’s comment about physique and not technique being the key to power

 “Power doesn’t come from technique, it comes from physique,” he says. “The goal was to get him as strong as possible to create more power in his swing. But we had to make sure his technique didn’t block that newfound energy from being utilized.”

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-francesco-molinari-picked-up-20-yards-off-the-tee-and-still-hits-it-straight

Except Molinari made substantial swing changes designed to increase distance. From Golf Digest: 

Molinari and Pugh have a term they use to describe the changes they made: “Taking out the brakes.” They wanted to eliminate the moves or positions that restrict energy flow, such as limiting hip turn in the backswing or maintaining the flex in the knees. These restrictions might help a player feel more in control—something Molinari says he used to thrive on—but the downside is, they take away speed.

One traditional brake in the swing that they worked to release is the action of the front foot. Molinari went from keeping the heel down on the backswing to letting it come up to allow a bigger stretch and turn to the top. Going through the shot, that same foot now spins open, literally pointing to the target, to support a more aggressive body rotation. Taking out the brakes, yes, and hitting the throttle.

Molinari says, collectively, his swing changes gave him more speed, but also something he was not expecting. “Using the body more and swinging faster actually allowed me to get rid of some of the contact misses I had before,” he says. “I started hitting the ball more in the middle of the clubface.” (emphasis added)

Even Bryson made substantial swing changes when he bulked up, and he has lost some of that bulk too. You really can't find any Tour golfer who added distance just from weight training. I said earlier, the best test case here is Scott Stallings, and his example shows that the weight training did not increase his distance.

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1 hour ago, Middler said:

Quit feeding the troll folks, or he/she will never go away...forum 101.

“Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”

Resorting to personal insults because someone provides information contrary to your view shows more about your poor character than anything else.

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Do you think that the USGA or R&A regulate how courses are maintained, or set up for tournaments?  Sure, longer fairway grass will decrease driving distance, but that can not be regulated by the Ruling Bodies.  And as long as the PGA Tour is selling distance, they're not going to slow the fairways either.
Well the USGA does set up the US open right? But I agree with your point that the PGA would have to make this decision in the other 50+ tournaments a year, and it's doubtful they would. Isn't this in part why they developed the TPC network, to be able to control conditions and make things uniform.

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37 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

Preach!

 

I agree with a lot of this. The interesting thing with the equipment advances is that as far as distance goes, the average recreational golfer is not hitting it that much farther than they did 20+ years ago. Most of the distance advantages of the equipment advances have gone to the small percentage of low handicap to professional players. (Although I do think the average recreational golfer has benefited from equipment advances making clubs more forgiving.) The issue to me is really that of the product the Tour is presenting to golf fans. Similar to MLB, I don't like how baseball has developed at that level. With the increased usage of bullpen pitchers and defensive shifts, the game has so increased strikeouts, walks and homeruns that it just isn't as fun or compelling to watch as years ago. I love watching Tour events but I enjoyed it even more before the latest distance boom.

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43 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

Preach!

 

Indeed.  He's also a great example of physique transformation and how it plays into this discussion 🙂.

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Here are my thoughts from the last time this topic was discussed:

I'll add this after some additional thought. If not for the pandemic, it is very likely golf would continue to be stagnant or on the decline because it takes up too much time and is too expensive. A simple solution would be to redefine what a regulation golf course looks like. I'm personally in favor of 12-hole courses - less time, smaller footprint, lower cost. And for the course architects whose only solution for distance is to make longer golf courses, well now they can do that without taking up anymore space than they currently do. 

Would I miss 18-hole golf courses? Absolutely, but I'm sure there'd still be plenty around to play and we'd still see them on tour as well. The USGA and R&A just don't want to do anything that would go against the financial investments they've made in the game. They'd rather pass the buck to OEMs and golfers. And yes, I realize that bifurcation would not impact a large swath of golfers, but what about those amateurs who do compete recreationally as well as at the elite level? We should expect them to drop even more money to own two separate sets of equipment? Note that this would impact juniors as well as adult amateurs.

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18 minutes ago, LICC said:

Most of the distance advantages of the equipment advances have gone to the small percentage of low handicap to professional players.

 

You mean the ones that train and workout??? Hmmm.....

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4 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Indeed.  He's also a great example of physique transformation and how it plays into this discussion 🙂.

Image result for rory mcilroy in 2007

No doubt. Although in the pic on the left he was still a world class top 0.05% in the world player.

The edge between the world's best is so slim and any way a player can get just a slight edge they'll take it. Fitness is a perfect example of that. But, it's not just fitness -- look at Scott Stallings; he's shredded... and 251st in the world.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/what-it-took-for-scott-stallings-to-become-the-tours-most-shredded-pro

 

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7 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Indeed.  He's also a great example of physique transformation and how it plays into this discussion 🙂.

Image result for rory mcilroy in 2007

Rory started his weight training in 2011.

Rory average driving distance in 2009: 305 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2013: 302 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2015: 304  yards

Rory average driving distance in 2016: 307 yards

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2 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

 

 

You mean the ones that train and workout??? Hmmm.....

He must mean the ones that can hit the sweet spot on the club every single time with the proper launch angle and spin. Diet and exercise is like doing that on steroids.

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2 minutes ago, LICC said:

Rory started his weight training in 2011.

Rory average driving distance in 2009: 305 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2013: 302 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2015: 304  yards

Rory average driving distance in 2016: 307 yards

but couldn't one argue that weight training/fitness was also for recovery? In order to play 4 consecutive rounds and multiple weeks and still be at the top of your game you have to be in top shape to be consistently good.

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4 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

but couldn't one argue that weight training/fitness was also for recovery? In order to play 4 consecutive rounds and multiple weeks and still be at the top of your game you have to be in top shape to be consistently good.

Absolutely. I'm not saying that fitness and weight training doesn't have any benefits. Increasing stamina is a benefit, and being able to maintain your form in late rounds is a benefit.  I'm saying that the increases in distance on Tour from the early 1990s to today are predominantly the result of equipment advances and not from more players doing weight training.

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8 minutes ago, LICC said:

Rory started his weight training in 2011.

Rory average driving distance in 2009: 305 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2013: 302 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2015: 304  yards

Rory average driving distance in 2016: 307 yards

what exactly is your argument here? you keep saying you have a problem with the players on tour getting longer, but you continue to provide stats proving they aren’t actually getting longer. 

do you have a point? or are you just here to argue?

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9 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

No doubt. Although in the pic on the left he was still a world class top 0.05% in the world player.

The edge between the world's best is so slim and any way a player can get just a slight edge they'll take it. Fitness is a perfect example of that. But, it's not just fitness -- look at Scott Stallings; he's shredded... and 251st in the world.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/what-it-took-for-scott-stallings-to-become-the-tours-most-shredded-pro

 

I guess my point is that way more players today have moved towards or squarely into the "ripped" category than decades ago.  This is surely a contributing factor in the average distances gained... but as you point out with the Stalling's example, not a sure bet that scoring average follows along 🙂.

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Not sure what this means but Rory gained 3 mph ss from 2009 through 2016 gaining 2 yards in distance and gained 1.8 mph from 2016 to 2021 gaining 14 yards distance.

Lots of things could contribute to that jump....equipment now provides a larger sweet spot so slightly mishit drives still carry or head weight adjustment to lower ball spin but so could tweaking his swing to optimize launch angle.

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6 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

I guess my point is that way more players today have moved towards or squarely into the "ripped" category than decades ago.  This is surely a contributing factor in the average distances gained... but as you point out with the Stalling's example, not a sure bet that scoring average follows along 🙂.

It's important to note that Scott Stallings didn't lose weight and get fit so he could score better or hit the ball further. He started working out to radically change his life!!!

https://www.si.com/golf/2020/03/05/scott-stallings-weight-loss-golf-pga-tour

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/golf/2020/07/03/scott-stallings-pga-tour/5371199002/

https://www.startribune.com/golfer-scott-stallings-leaves-his-poor-health-habits-behind-him/512274722/

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1 minute ago, TR1PTIK said:

It's important to note that Scott Stallings didn't lose weight and get fit so he could score better or hit the ball further. He started working out to radically change his life!!!

https://www.si.com/golf/2020/03/05/scott-stallings-weight-loss-golf-pga-tour

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/golf/2020/07/03/scott-stallings-pga-tour/5371199002/

https://www.startribune.com/golfer-scott-stallings-leaves-his-poor-health-habits-behind-him/512274722/

Absolutely! And something to be admired.

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24 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

He must mean the ones that can hit the sweet spot on the club every single time with the proper launch angle and spin. Diet and exercise is like doing that on steroids.

You're not wrong, but I've met plenty of amateurs who can find the middle of the clubface and will never sniff elite competition because they don't have the firepower or a complete game. 

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17 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

what exactly is your argument here? you keep saying you have a problem with the players on tour getting longer, but you continue to provide stats proving they aren’t actually getting longer. 

do you have a point? or are you just here to argue?

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Beyond club technology advancements there are also additional equipment advancements that have had a major impact.

Data collection, trackman, GCQuad, that-thing-you-stand-on-that-shows-your-weight-distribution, simple launch monitors, etc.

All of this tech has helped to learn the best ways to make the swing more efficient, powerful and consistent....resulting in added length.

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2 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

You're not wrong, but I've met plenty of amateurs who can find the middle of the clubface and will never sniff elite competition because they don't have the firepower or a complete game. 

No argument here. 

I've played with plenty of people that can hit mammoth drives consistently but you get them inside of 100 yards where they need a controlled shot and they completely fall apart.

This isn't baseball where the goal is to hit the ball as far as possible and that's it.

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2 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

I've played with plenty of people that can hit mammoth drives consistently but you get them inside of 100 yards where they need a controlled shot and they completely fall apart.

I might be one of those people... 😂

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10 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

Beyond club technology advancements there are also additional equipment advancements that have had a major effect.

Data collection, trackman, GCQuad, that-thing-you-stand-on-that-shows-your-weight-distribution, simple launch monitors, etc.

All of this tech has helped to learn the best ways to make the swing more efficient, powerful and consistent....resulting in added length.

 A HUGE omission in this discussion!

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The driving distance stat as recorded on the PGA Tour's website is decidedly incomplete anyway. It's reasonably okay at identifying the longest players on Tour though but SG: OTT is a much better metric of driving performance.

They measure the total distance a ball goes regardless of finish position on two holes a round and that's how its measured. So of the 14 holes on a golf course that require a drive, only two are measured for your driving distance stat and there's no discerning between drives that end up in the fairway, this usually adds additional and sometimes quite significant roll to the carry, or if it ends up in the rough, less roll. They select two holes that are going in opposite directions too in an attempt to counteract any wind benefits and they try to select holes that it's reasonably certain players will hit driver on, but it's certainly possible that some iron or 3W tee shots are sneaking into the stat for some of the longer guys.

Not sure what this means but Rory gained 3 mph ss from 2009 through 2016 gaining 2 yards in distance and gained 1.8 mph from 2016 to 2021 gaining 14 yards distance.
Lots of things could contribute to that jump....equipment now provides a larger sweet spot so slightly mishit drives still carry or head weight adjustment to lower ball spin but so could tweaking his swing to optimize launch angle.


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1 hour ago, LICC said:

Resorting to personal insults because someone provides information contrary to your view shows more about your poor character than anything else.

If that makes you feel better about yourself, have at it...

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

Rory started his weight training in 2011.

Rory average driving distance in 2009: 305 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2013: 302 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2015: 304  yards

Rory average driving distance in 2016: 307 yards

Stats came be used to support any conclusion.  For example,  continuing your Rory list...

Rory average driving distance in 2017: 317 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2018: 320 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2019: 313 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2020: 314 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2021: 322 yards, so far...

So in the last 5 years, Rory is about 10 yards longer on average, even though he already had bulked up and equipment specs haven't changed.

However, I think the R&A and USGA are looking at more than just average driving distance when assessing distance effects on courses.  I was amazed at how many players hit long drives these days. 

For the 2020 season there were 255 players on the PGA Tour that hit the ball 350+ yards.  Even Zach Johnson topped 350 yards at The Memorial.  Many were at altitude, surely wind was a factor, but the course setup also had an effect.

 

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15 minutes ago, jlukes said:

So tour averages have hardly budged in the last 15 years, and that graph doesn't include any correlation to player overall fitness/swing speed or advancements in club fitting and coaching due to launch monitors.

Do you have any data or direct examples to show any correlation between player fitness and distance? I've been giving numerous examples and statistics showing otherwise.

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