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Planned 2030 Golf Ball Rollback


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584 members have voted

  1. 1. Are you in favor of the rollback?

    • Yes
      81
    • No
      400
    • Don't Care
      103
  2. 2. Do you watch or care about the PGA Tour and other professional Tours?

    • Yes
      529
    • No
      21
    • Don't Care
      34
  3. 3. Do you wish there was a Tour Only golf ball?

    • Yes
      200
    • No
      237
    • Don't Care
      147
  4. 4. Do you want to play all the same equipment like the pros play?

    • Yes
      215
    • No
      143
    • Don't Care
      226
  5. 5. Do you feel your game will be dramatically effected by the rollback in 2030?

    • Yes
      230
    • No
      240
    • Don't know
      114
  6. 6. Will loosing any distance take away significant enjoyment in golfing for you?

    • Yes
      300
    • No
      158
    • Probably not
      126
  7. 7. Would you quit golf because of the rollback?

    • Yes
      25
    • No
      559
  8. 8. Would you prefer bifurcation?

    • Yes
      268
    • No
      202
    • Don't Care
      114
  9. 9. Is this all too early and we need to wait and see what more will happen over the next few years?

    • Definitely
      261
    • No, this needs to be addressed now
      262
    • Don't care
      61

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I had this discussion with a club pro over a glass of scotch last evening.  He thinks that the hiring of Wahn is a signal that the goal will be to limit distance increases rather than rolling things back.  I pointed out concerns because of some past decisions especially the anchor ban.  His counter was that it impacted less than 10 percent of all golfers and didn't hurt OEMs in any meaningful way so it was an easy "fix" even if it was unfair to a small group of people.  He doesn't see them making a decision that would clearly upset the entire apple cart.

 

His points made sense to me but the scotch was exceptional and there may have been more than one glass involved.

 

I will say that holes like 10 at Riviera or other drivable by everyone in the filed par 4's are exciting and require a varied skill set - think about that hole, it mandated a perfectly shaped drive, hit the proper distance and when the shot was missed by much more than a whisker a truly deft touch to get up in down, sometimes even to get up and down in 3.  That's the new strategy and its easier to watch than a guy having to work his 3 iron to a back right pin - you don't get to really see that on TV like you do the pitch or punch or blast or bump and run followed by a harrowing down hill 8 footer for birdie.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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4 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

All of our discourse keeps bringing me back to the question why they don't first  look at implementing course layout and condition changes? I mean this approach has its challenges too but they pale in comparison to what is certain to be a mess on the equipment side of things (as @DaveP043points out).  

Simply changing fairway cut height has been mentioned numerous times - and costs nothing.  What is the hesitancy to pull those levers first?  At the end of the day, no matter what they do, especially on the equipment side, the average long drivers are still going to be 30-35 yards past the average short hitters.  At least with course changes, things like cut height, etc. can be tailored to penalize the trouble making bombers. 🙂

 

Cutting the fairways a little higher will make a small difference (some tournaments more than others), but any other course setup changes that would really have an effect would make the course setups one-dimensional and boring. 

I really don't see what the big deleterious effect would be to limit clubhead size for the pros. Doing that and tightening up the COR tolerances would go a long way.

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2 hours ago, LeftyRM7 said:

My question for the bifurcation crowd would be where do you draw the line? I think many think of the Bryson’s and DJs of the world when talking about this distance debate but even on tour those guys are the 1% of the 1% of golfers. The same arguments that are being made for amateurs vs pros can be made for shorter hitting pros. I mean nobody believes LPGA or Champions Tour pros are overpowering golf courses. Do we really need to tell 5’ 4” Brooke Henderson she can’t use her driver anymore? So then you say it could be a PGA tour only bifurcation but then you alienate the guys that play multiple tours. Do we really want to push guys like Furyk, Stricker, and Mickelson off the PGA sooner than they’d like to because they can’t compete? There are so many issues to deal with and wherever you draw that line of bifurcation, there will be a group of golfers that end up with the short end of the stick.


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I don't see the big problem. Furyk can use a larger head driver in Champions events and a smaller head driver in Tour events. These guys are elite, they can swing different clubs.

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4 minutes ago, LICC said:

Cutting the fairways a little higher will make a small difference (some tournaments more than others), but any other course setup changes that would really have an effect would make the course setups one-dimensional and boring. 

I really don't see what the big deleterious effect would be to limit clubhead size for the pros. Doing that and tightening up the COR tolerances would go a long way.

What head size do you recommend. The long hitters use 3w in the 175cc upwards of 185cc and hit the ball over 300.

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

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2 hours ago, revkev said:

I had this discussion with a club pro over a glass of scotch last evening.  He thinks that the hiring of Wahn is a signal that the goal will be to limit distance increases rather than rolling things back.  I pointed out concerns because of some past decisions especially the anchor ban.  His counter was that it impacted less than 10 percent of all golfers and didn't hurt OEMs in any meaningful way so it was an easy "fix" even if it was unfair to a small group of people.  He doesn't see them making a decision that would clearly upset the entire apple cart.

 

His points made sense to me but the scotch was exceptional and there may have been more than one glass involved.

 

I will say that holes like 10 at Riviera or other drivable by everyone in the filed par 4's are exciting and require a varied skill set - think about that hole, it mandated a perfectly shaped drive, hit the proper distance and when the shot was missed by much more than a whisker a truly deft touch to get up in down, sometimes even to get up and down in 3.  That's the new strategy and its easier to watch than a guy having to work his 3 iron to a back right pin - you don't get to really see that on TV like you do the pitch or punch or blast or bump and run followed by a harrowing down hill 8 footer for birdie.

I see the massive distance gains from equipment as diminishing the 10th at Riviera. Before, you had a mix of players laying up and others trying to drive it. Now, no one even thinks about laying up. There is not any strategic choice. There is no benefit to laying up. It has become just a one-choice difficulty hole. 

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6 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

What head size do you recommend. The long hitters use 3w in the 175cc upwards of 185cc and hit the ball over 300.

 

180cc sounds about right. Having 300 yards as a benchmark for the longest hitters would work well.

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10 minutes ago, LICC said:

180cc sounds about right. Having 300 yards as a benchmark for the longest hitters would work well.

That’s around the distance tiger was hitting the ball when he came on tour and courses had to be tiger proofed so how does that solve the supposed distance issue.

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11 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

That’s around the distance tiger was hitting the ball when he came on tour and courses had to be tiger proofed so how does that solve the supposed distance issue.

Tiger was the only one hitting it that far (just a handful of others). And courses have been lengthened since then, but not enough to keep up. So having the top 20 or so averaging 300 would get to a good place. 

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42 minutes ago, LICC said:

I really don't see what the big deleterious effect would be to limit clubhead size for the pros.

Where do you draw the line?  All professionals?  Certain Tours?  USGA events, like the Amateur?  Statewide events, like state opens?  State Amateurs?  Amateurs invited to PGA Tour events?  College golf?  And so far, this has been introduced as a possible VOLUNTARY Local Rule, which organizations do you believe will adopt it?  How will manufacturers feel about having to produce reduced distance equipment, whether its golf balls or clubs, for an extremely limited market?

I'm not saying I hate the idea of bifurcation, I just don't think its workable.  And I really don't care that the strategy of golf has evolved and changed, its been evolving and changing since the first feathery was struck with a crooked stick.

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49 minutes ago, LICC said:

I see the massive distance gains from equipment as diminishing the 10th at Riviera. Before, you had a mix of players laying up and others trying to drive it. Now, no one even thinks about laying up. There is not any strategic choice. There is no benefit to laying up. It has become just a one-choice difficulty hole. 

I would respectfully disagree with you.  That hole has been altered quite nicely to meet the demands of the modern game.  It's actually been shortened, not lengthened, so that the entire field may reach it.  Instead of a boring hole that required the entire field to lay up and fit a wedge onto a green ill suited for it it now allows everyone to attempt to reach but it takes a perfectly hit shot to pull it off.  If you prefer watching a bunch of irons off the tee and wedges in that's your choice just as it's mine to prefer the slightly faded 3 wood to a tight pin from 280 yards and then the excitement that follows when that shot didn't come off.

Additionally it's the numbers that have convinced the field that it is a wiser decision to go for it - they can see that the closer you are to the hole, the lower the scores you will make.  That's true through the green and what is more I suspect that it always has been.

 

Sports evolve - one of the beautiful things about golf is that folks are welcome to play with older, classic equipment if that's what they desire.  That would not be my choice but I certainly know people who prefer that and have found tours or leagues or societies for it.  

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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37 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Where do you draw the line?  All professionals?  Certain Tours?  USGA events, like the Amateur?  Statewide events, like state opens?  State Amateurs?  Amateurs invited to PGA Tour events?  College golf?  And so far, this has been introduced as a possible VOLUNTARY Local Rule, which organizations do you believe will adopt it?  How will manufacturers feel about having to produce reduced distance equipment, whether its golf balls or clubs, for an extremely limited market?

I'm not saying I hate the idea of bifurcation, I just don't think its workable.  And I really don't care that the strategy of golf has evolved and changed, its been evolving and changing since the first feathery was struck with a crooked stick.

Professional men's golfers except the Champions Tours. Easy answer.

The strategy of golf was roughly the same from the time of the wound ball and steel shafts (roughly WWII time period) up until the late 1990s. Looking at the change from the feathery to the gutta in the 1800s isn't that compelling of an argument.

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12 minutes ago, LICC said:

Professional men's golfers except the Champions Tours. Easy answer.

The strategy of golf was roughly the same from the time of the wound ball and steel shafts (roughly WWII time period) up until the late 1990s. Looking at the change from the feathery to the gutta in the 1800s isn't that compelling of an argument.

But then you have amateurs and pros on the korn ferry and other tours trying to make the tour playing under different rules and equipment. It has to pass down to some level lower than the Pga tour 

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31 minutes ago, revkev said:

I would respectfully disagree with you.  That hole has been altered quite nicely to meet the demands of the modern game.  It's actually been shortened, not lengthened, so that the entire field may reach it.  Instead of a boring hole that required the entire field to lay up and fit a wedge onto a green ill suited for it it now allows everyone to attempt to reach but it takes a perfectly hit shot to pull it off.  If you prefer watching a bunch of irons off the tee and wedges in that's your choice just as it's mine to prefer the slightly faded 3 wood to a tight pin from 280 yards and then the excitement that follows when that shot didn't come off.

Additionally it's the numbers that have convinced the field that it is a wiser decision to go for it - they can see that the closer you are to the hole, the lower the scores you will make.  That's true through the green and what is more I suspect that it always has been.

 

Sports evolve - one of the beautiful things about golf is that folks are welcome to play with older, classic equipment if that's what they desire.  That would not be my choice but I certainly know people who prefer that and have found tours or leagues or societies for it.  

It has been shortened? The hole in 1929 was measured at "about 320 yards". It is less than 5 yards difference today, all depending on where they put the markers.

If played as intended, it is not just laying up for a wedge. It is laying up in the best spot, on the left side of the fairway, where there is less room. Hitting the safest layup to the right gives a very difficult shot to the green. Or try to drive the green or just to the left of the green. But because of today's distances, they had to set up the hole to be so fast for its slope, and most any of the pros can hit it up there even past and over the green, that it has become one-dimensional. Hit driver and if you miss the green chip or pitch up from the back. It has turned an outstanding hole into a one-dimensional long par-3.

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4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

But then you have amateurs and pros on the korn ferry and other tours trying to make the tour playing under different rules and equipment. It has to pass down to some level lower than the Pga tour 

Why? For the miniscule percentage of golfers seeking to transition to the pro game, they would all just hit a few hundred balls on the range and make the adjustments. Like any adjustments from amateur to pro level. 

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Professional men's golfers except the Champions Tours. Easy answer.


The strategy of golf was roughly the same from the time of the wound ball and steel shafts (roughly WWII time period) up until the late 1990s.


Seem like you have changed from serious amateur/college to all tours to just the professional male tours.

I don’t think the strategy of golf really changed in the late 90s. Equipment and other factors enabled players to hit the ball farther. The strategy of golf started changing when stroke gained became understood. Even if equipment was rolled back, to some point players wouldn’t change strategy, they would still hit the ball as far as possible with the available equipment. It won’t matter at that level that they are hitting 6 iron instead of wedge.

The rules already have elements of bifurcation so I am not against that. I just don’t think you will get the pre strokes gained strategy on how to play the “classic” courses.

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2 minutes ago, LICC said:

Why? For the miniscule percentage of golfers seeking to transition to the pro game, they would all just hit a few hundred balls on the range and make the adjustments. Like any adjustments from amateur to pro level. 

There’s thousands of people playing across the world in professional tours that have hopes to make it on the tour. It makes little sense to play with equipment and rules that are different than that. The add in thousands of amateurs working their way up with the hopes of trying to make it. Minor league baseball is the first time that the majority of pros get their first taste of playing equipment used at the major league level and have to acclimate to that. 
 

If the #1 stick on a college team is playing under the rules and equipment used on the tour he wants to be on but someone he’s playing against isn’t he loses the advantage.

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

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1 minute ago, LICC said:

It has been shortened? The hole in 1929 was measured at "about 320 yards". It is less than 5 yards difference today, all depending on where they put the markers.

If played as intended, it is not just laying up for a wedge. It is laying up in the best spot, on the left side of the fairway, where there is less room. Hitting the safest layup to the right gives a very difficult shot to the green. Or try to drive the green or just to the left of the green. But because of today's distances, they had to set up the hole to be so fast for its slope, and most any of the pros can hit it up there even past and over the green, that it has become one-dimensional. Hit driver and if you miss the green chip or pitch up from the back. It has turned an outstanding hole into a one-dimensional long par-3.

As I said, you are entitled to your opinion.  We don't agree.  I'm guessing that if you like baseball we disagree about the evolution of that sport, also.  I didn't see what you did - I saw a shot that had to be perfectly hit with a fade and anything over a slight miss brought 5 or even 6 into play because it could get behind a tree or on the down slope of a trap.   Club selection varied from driver to long iron, and was mostly 3 wood which made hitting a cut harder still. 

 

Absolutely the parts of the game that were tested were different It's 100 years after the course was first built, stuff doesn't stay the same.

To others their used to be a significant difference in the ball played in European form the ball played in the US.  Everyone used the European ball for the British Open because it was smaller and easier to control.  

 

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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5 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

There’s thousands of people playing across the world in professional tours that have hopes to make it on the tour. It makes little sense to play with equipment and rules that are different than that. The add in thousands of amateurs working their way up with the hopes of trying to make it. Minor league baseball is the first time that the majority of pros get their first taste of playing equipment used at the major league level and have to acclimate to that. 
 

If the #1 stick on a college team is playing under the rules and equipment used on the tour he wants to be on but someone he’s playing against isn’t he loses the advantage.

 

How many new players are added to the Tour each year? 15? Ok not triple that for worldwide tours. Still not anything close to a significant percentage. That shouldn't be any factor in whether to have bifurcation. It is a miniscule number of people impacted and the adjustment wouldn't be that difficult.

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8 minutes ago, revkev said:

As I said, you are entitled to your opinion.  We don't agree.  I'm guessing that if you like baseball we disagree about the evolution of that sport, also.  I didn't see what you did - I saw a shot that had to be perfectly hit with a fade and anything over a slight miss brought 5 or even 6 into play because it could get behind a tree or on the down slope of a trap.   Club selection varied from driver to long iron, and was mostly 3 wood which made hitting a cut harder still. 

 

Absolutely the parts of the game that were tested were different It's 100 years after the course was first built, stuff doesn't stay the same.

To others their used to be a significant difference in the ball played in European form the ball played in the US.  Everyone used the European ball for the British Open because it was smaller and easier to control.  

 

Yes, baseball has also negatively evolved. Record numbers of homeruns and strikeouts and low batting averages makes for a much less interesting game to watch.

The 10th at Riviera used to be fun to watch. How would they play it? Can they hold the green? Now it is a long par-3 drive and chip. The big intrigue is whether someone will get blocked behind a tree. Gimmicky.

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6 minutes ago, LICC said:

How many new players are added to the Tour each year? 15? Ok not triple that for worldwide tours. Still not anything close to a significant percentage. That shouldn't be any factor in whether to have bifurcation. It is a miniscule number of people impacted and the adjustment wouldn't be that difficult.

There 60+ guys every Monday for the two main tours plus the korn ferry and I believe the pga Latin America. I’m assuming there similar for the other mini tours that are all trying to qualify so it’s more than just the ones who get added with an actual card and some sort of priority. That’s the just the ones who paid the money to register. Then all the amateurs that are trying to get to just that point. The impact isn’t just on a small number as you think.  

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58 minutes ago, revkev said:

As I said, you are entitled to your opinion.  We don't agree.  I'm guessing that if you like baseball we disagree about the evolution of that sport, also.

Since you brought up baseball, this is timely from today's LA Times. It compares well to Tour golf today:

The changes are so subtle that they may result in fly balls traveling only one to two feet shorter when hit more than 375 feet, but if that pushes baseball one small step toward its more traditional roots, it would be one giant leap for the game, in Maddon’s eyes.

“I’m hoping it impacts the game a lot,” Maddon said. “We’ll see how it works out this year, but if, in fact, the ball doesn’t travel as far, it will change the analytics of the game, and a lot of things will change off that.

“Strategically speaking, it will put more emphasis on speed, on hitting the ball the other way, especially with two strikes, on contact. Strikeouts will be more disdained, like they were in the past. Pitchers might challenge hitters more because they want the ball in play, and they won’t walk as many guys.”

This from Rich Hill:

“The overall feeling I’ve gotten from friends and family and fans that I’ve talked to is that, yeah, seeing home runs is almost like watching the NBA and guys throwing up three-pointers all the time,” said Rich Hill, a 40-year-old pitcher who recently signed with the Tampa Bay Rays.

“It understandably has a point to it, but strategically, if we want to continue to grow the health of the game, we might want to rethink where we are right now. And I don’t think I’m the only one who feels that way.”

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Tiger was the only one hitting it that far (just a handful of others). And courses have been lengthened since then, but not enough to keep up. So having the top 20 or so averaging 300 would get to a good place. 

Just looked up pga stats from 2020. Only 7 players had an average carry over 300 in 2020, 6 in 2019, and if you want to look at 2021 there are 6.

https://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.02409.y2020.html

The tour average has been around 280.

What do you think carry should be as total distance is influenced by course conditions?

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15 minutes ago, cnosil said:


Just looked up pga stats from 2020. Only 7 players had an average carry over 300 in 2020, 6 in 2019, and if you want to look at 2021 there are 6.

https://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.02409.y2020.html

The tour average has been around 280.

What do you think carry should be as total distance is influenced by course conditions?

What?! STATISTICS?! Nooooooooooooooo! That destroyed the narrative! Ugh. Dang it!!!! 
😂😂😂😂😂 Sadly, we’ve all known that everyone on Tour wasn’t hitting it a mile, but the USGA sees one guy, Bryson, sees others starting to maybe follow suit, and they make a rash statement that distance is a problem. There’s a guy on Twitter that keeps posting quotes from the early 1900s about how everyone hits the ball to far. Hilarious, especially when one thinks it’s a modern comment and it was from 1922!!!

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24 minutes ago, cnosil said:

What do you think carry should be as total distance is influenced by course conditions?

I think roll out is more the issue than carry.  Watching a good many of the events, the amount of rollout seems crazy.  That is where the argument for trying higher cut heights through those zones makes sense.  Shag carpet from 290-310.

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1 hour ago, cnosil said:


Just looked up pga stats from 2020. Only 7 players had an average carry over 300 in 2020, 6 in 2019, and if you want to look at 2021 there are 6.

https://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.02409.y2020.html

The tour average has been around 280.

What do you think carry should be as total distance is influenced by course conditions?

On average? If we get to a point where only the top 10 or so players average 300 yard drives, then the average carry distance for the whole Tour would probably be 265 or so, with the average carry of the top 10 players around 285 or so.

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1 hour ago, PMookie said:

What?! STATISTICS?! Nooooooooooooooo! That destroyed the narrative! Ugh. Dang it!!!! 
😂😂😂😂😂 Sadly, we’ve all known that everyone on Tour wasn’t hitting it a mile, but the USGA sees one guy, Bryson, sees others starting to maybe follow suit, and they make a rash statement that distance is a problem. There’s a guy on Twitter that keeps posting quotes from the early 1900s about how everyone hits the ball to far. Hilarious, especially when one thinks it’s a modern comment and it was from 1922!!!

What?? For the last full season, the average drive on Tour was 297. A full 72 players averaged over 300 on drives. The statistics support the narrative.

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1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

I think roll out is more the issue than carry.  Watching a good many of the events, the amount of rollout seems crazy.  That is where the argument for trying higher cut heights through those zones makes sense.  Shag carpet from 290-310.

Carry is a major issue. When players don't even blink at a hazard 280 yards away, that defeats course strategy.

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What?? For the last full season, the average drive on Tour was 297. A full 72 players averaged over 300 on drives. The statistics support the narrative.

That’s total distance. Total distance is influenced by course conditions.
We see with majors and the Ryder cup that course conditions can significantly impact the players performance.

If distance is truly a problem why not start with the course and mandate how pga courses are setup. Why does it have to be a rules or equipment change?

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1 hour ago, PMookie said:

Sadly, we’ve all known that everyone on Tour wasn’t hitting it a mile, but the USGA sees one guy, Bryson, sees others starting to maybe follow suit, and they make a rash statement that distance is a problem.

You can go to the USGA website and see Distance Reports from 2015 to the present.  Bryson won the US Amateur in 2015, I'm pretty sure they didn't start this project based on some pimply college kid.  The Distance Insights project was begun in early 2018, and in 2017 Bryson ranked #45 in driving distance.  I just don't think Bryson had anything to do with the decision to collect and evaluate distance information.  Similarly, I don't think that spending 2 years to compile and evaluate data is a particularly rash decision.  Spending an additional year to more clearly define additional areas for further evaluation is particularly rash.    

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13 minutes ago, cnosil said:


That’s total distance. Total distance is influenced by course conditions.
We see with majors and the Ryder cup that course conditions can significantly impact the players performance.

If distance is truly a problem why not start with the course and mandate how pga courses are setup. Why does it have to be a rules or equipment change?

Because it is the equipment that is the predominant source of the distance explosion. Cut the fairways a little higher and you will get a few yards less roll. Make every course extremely penal and one-dimensional and you get boring golf.

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