Planned 2030 Golf Ball Rollback

[storm319]

On 1/13/2022 at 7:16 AM, Steelman said:

Actually bifurcation already exists when it comes to the ball.  There is not a single standard ball for golf like there is for baseball or football for example.  Even with different manufacturers for basketball and tennis the balls are essentially the same by rule.  In golf, we have 5 layer balls to 3 layer balls on Tour. Might even be the odd player with a 2 layer ball.  Have urethane covers and ionomer covers.  Have different dimple patterns and depths to make balls fly differently than other balls.  

In this regard, leave equipment alone and standardize the ball.  Require a certain amount of flat surface area, specify dimple number and pattern, layers, cover material, and other parameters and be done with it.  

I think you are misinterpreting bifurcation in this context. Currently there are a single set of regulations within the rules of golf for all levels of play. An example of bifurcation would be if a different set of regulations was introduced for certain conditions which is not the case today. 

[DaveP043]

9 hours ago, storm319 said:

I think you are misinterpreting bifurcation in this context. Currently there are a single set of regulations within the rules of golf for all levels of play. An example of bifurcation would be if a different set of regulations was introduced for certain conditions which is not the case today. 

I'd say there are some small areas where some degree of bifurcation has occurred, primarily through a few Model Local Rules which are applied only at the highest levels of play.  Three that come to mind, two of which are brand new, are the "one ball rule", the limitation of club length to 46", and the elimination of green-reading books.  One more would be the 2010 groove rules, which are used only at very high level competitions, but will go into effect for the rest of us in 2024.

[Shapotomous]

I just learned recently the one ball rule included color.  No changing from white to yellow even with the same model ball during a round.  I guess they believe color has an effect on performance.

[cnosil]

37 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd say there are some small areas where some degree of bifurcation has occurred, primarily through a few Model Local Rules which are applied only at the highest levels of play.  Three that come to mind, two of which are brand new, are the "one ball rule", the limitation of club length to 46", and the elimination of green-reading books.  One more would be the 2010 groove rules, which are used only at very high level competitions, but will go into effect for the rest of us in 2024.

Another is the use of distance measuring devices.  

[DaveP043]

29 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

I just learned recently the one ball rule included color.  No changing from white to yellow even with the same model ball during a round.  I guess they believe color has an effect on performance.

I'm not sure that it doesn't effect performance, I know I've seen people posting here who have sensed a difference.  But it may also be a simple "bookkeeping" thing, the ball used must be a single entry on the Approved Ball List, and that list differentiates balls based on color.

[cnosil]

53 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd say there are some small areas where some degree of bifurcation has occurred, primarily through a few Model Local Rules which are applied only at the highest levels of play.  Three that come to mind, two of which are brand new, are the "one ball rule", the limitation of club length to 46", and the elimination of green-reading books.  One more would be the 2010 groove rules, which are used only at very high level competitions, but will go into effect for the rest of us in 2024.

Couldn't we also add the new stroke and distance alternatives for balls OB.  And cart limitations?

[GolfSpy_APH]

4 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Couldn't we also add the new stroke and distance alternatives for balls OB.  And cart limitations?

Please no... we have talked about that rule far too much and is a endless cycle which will never be solved haha!  Us mods have enough to keep an eye on right now as is! haha

[cnosil]

3 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Please no... we have talked about that rule far too much and is a endless cycle which will never be solved haha!  Us mods have enough to keep an eye on right now as is! haha

The are examples of how the golf rules are already bifurcated;  not something to discuss on whether they are right and wrong.  

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

The are examples of how the golf rules are already bifurcated;  not something to discuss on whether they are right and wrong.  

 

Oh I know! I was more just trying to make a joke while also being sure we don't poke the bear on that one (topic) again. 

You are correct tho it is a example of how the rules of golf have been bifurcated already. 

[DaveP043]

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Couldn't we also add the new stroke and distance alternatives for balls OB.  And cart limitations?

To me, bifurcation applies to differences between top level golf and the rest of us.  Those two MLRs are applied (or not applied) across all levels of golf, so don't really differentiate based on the skill level of the competition.  MLR E-5 may be in force for casual play at a club, but not used for competitions among the same players.  Golf Carts are used commonly  on the Champions Tour, the highest-level competition for that age group, yet not allowed on many courses for even the least-skilled golfers.  So to my mind, these rules are not bifurcation, they're options to be used at any level of play.

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, Shapotomous said:

I just learned recently the one ball rule included color.  No changing from white to yellow even with the same model ball during a round.  I guess they believe color has an effect on performance.

It’s why they have to be on the approved list.

It was pointed out in the mgs 2019 ball study that they saw issues with the yellow z star or z star xv compared to the white version.

Its part of the reason that titleist took so long making a yellow prov. 

[BostonSal]

21 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

  If you play golf, your life is better at least in part because of the USGA.  

That could very well be true, Dave. 

What I notice, however, is their telling me that my wedge grooves are non-conforming.

[Shapotomous]

36 minutes ago, BostonSal said:

That could very well be true, Dave. 

What I notice, however, is their telling me that my wedge grooves are non-conforming.

They'll have to pry my Tour Action 588's from my cold dead hands!!  

Seriously, mine are so old the grooves are most certainly not giving me a spin advantage at this point.  I should get something new and start the process of grinding the soles to work for me.  I just hate the thought of grinding away on a $100+ club.

[BostonSal]

13 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

They'll have to pry my Tour Action 588's from my cold dead hands!!  

Seriously, mine are so old the grooves are most certainly not giving me a spin advantage at this point.  I should get something new and start the process of grinding the soles to work for me.  I just hate the thought of grinding away on a $100+ club.

Just gouge away. A local machine shop would have the tool.  With conformity not the issue, you could apply real cover shredding grooves.

[DaveP043]

2 hours ago, BostonSal said:

That could very well be true, Dave. 

What I notice, however, is their telling me that my wedge grooves are non-conforming.

You still have just about 2 full seasons of golf before that rule takes effect for most of us.  If you haven't replaced your wedges in 14 years, you don't fit in with the club hoes here at MGS. 

Edited January 15, 2022 by DaveP043

[BostonSal]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

You still have just about 2 full seasons of golf before that rule takes effect for most of us.  If you haven't replaced your wedges in 14 years, you don't fit in with the club hoes here at MGS. 

Let me share a short story.

 

Titleist made an L-Grind 58-04 since the original box groove Spin Milled Seiries to the SM7 generation.

With the SM8 model, they discontinued it.

I am in the process of acquiring a conforming SM6 version and having it completely rebuilt,

at a cost well in excess of buying  new wedge,

by The Iron Factory in Arizona.

In addition to stripping it, rechroming it, replacing the paint fill, reshafting it, and regripping it,

they will be machining cover shredding box grooves that would not have conformed

to the 2008 allowances.

Now I won't be able to try to qualify for the USGA Senior Amateur Championship.

 

I trust your judgment, Dave.  Should I worry about that?
 

Edited January 16, 2022 by BostonSal

[DaveP043]

14 hours ago, BostonSal said:

Let me share a short story.

 

Titleist made an L-Grind 58-04 since the original box groove Spin Milled Seiries to the SM7 generation.

With the SM8 model, they discontinued it.

I am in the process of acquiring a conforming SM6 version and having it completely rebuilt,

at a cost well in excess of buying  new wedge,

by The Iron Factory in Arizona.

In addition to stripping it, rechroming it, replacing the paint fill, reshafting it, and regripping it,

they will be machining cover shredding box grooves that would not have conformed

to the 2008 allowances.

Now I won't be able to try to qualify for the USGA Senior Amateur Championship.

 

I trust your judgment, Dave.  Should I worry about that?
 

I don't claim to be an expert on exactly what conforms, and I certainly don't know how your "rebuilt" club will fit in the regulations.  If I read you right, you're taking a club that conforms to the 2024 rules and having it changed.  What has The Iron Factory told you about groove conformance?  If it ends up being non-conforming, I have very little sympathy.  If you're worried about it conforming, and you'll need to use it in significant competitions, you can send it to the USGA (or have The Iron Factory send it) to be evaluated.  

[storm319]

On 1/15/2022 at 8:17 AM, DaveP043 said:

I'd say there are some small areas where some degree of bifurcation has occurred, primarily through a few Model Local Rules which are applied only at the highest levels of play.  Three that come to mind, two of which are brand new, are the "one ball rule", the limitation of club length to 46", and the elimination of green-reading books.  One more would be the 2010 groove rules, which are used only at very high level competitions, but will go into effect for the rest of us in 2024.

Should have clarified that my comment was limited to balls, buifurcation absolutely exists in other areas (granted the groove rule is temporary). I wouldn’t consider the one ball condition as true equipment buifurcation since it does not limit any physical or performance properties of the actual ball. 

[LICC]

Patrick Cantlay:

“That’s the hardest part of it. The knee-jerk reaction is don’t do anything. They may mess up the implementation, so it won’t be worth it,” he said.

“Theoretically, the golf ball needs to go shorter,” he continued, “Every golf course I go to has different tee boxes farther back than even 4-5 years ago when I visited the golf course. It’s getting to the point where the tee boxes are already to the perimeter of the property, so much so that Augusta National has been buying up all the adjacent pieces of property so they can put more tee boxes and change the holes.

“That’s not sustainable. Not only that if pace of play is one of your biggest concerns, how many golf course do I go to on Tour where the tees are 100 yards back? They can’t keep going in this direction.

Cantlay added: “The technology isn’t only better but young guys are trying to hit it farther and farther because the stats say the farther I hit it, the better I’ll play. Something has to give.

“I think the biggest shame is that I can’t go to Cypress Point and play the course the way the designer designed the golf course to be played. The biggest problem for me is when we lose the architectural integrity of the golf course. We’re to the point where that’s where we are. Something has to give.”

[LICC]

On 2/4/2021 at 7:42 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Kyle Berkshire and Bryson got faster by workout out and training. 

 

“Over the past two years, Bryson DeChambeau became the poster child for big drives and a major proponent of adding weight and muscle to gain yards. But Big Bryson is no more, with the 29-year-old recently dropping his bulk-up scheme in favor of the exact opposite: losing huge amounts of weight to improve his health and prevent injuries. … 

But ever since that highlight, DeChambeau has struggled both with his game and his body, suffering a litany of injuries that often kept him off the course until he jumped to LIV Golf last summer.

Now, the Big Bulk Up has officially come to an end, and DeChambeau is expressing regrets for what his radical weight gain did to his body.“

Bryson lost the bulk but not the distance.

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by LICC

[fixyurdivot]

Did the LIV Golf thread get locked?

[cnosil]

17 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Did the LIV Golf thread get locked?

Not that I can see.  

[fixyurdivot]

59 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Not that I can see.  

Phewww, what a relief .

[Buckle]

Bifurcation has been here since 2019.  The USGA allows courses to put a drop zone on the green side of a PA with no adjustment to handicap and the same penalty as if the zone was where the USGA said "It should be."  The USGA/AGA would NEVER run a tournament and put a drop zone on the green side of a Penalty area.  

Sorry if this has been mentioned in the previous 21 pages, I didn't read them all.

 

[LICC]

10 minutes ago, Buckle said:

Bifurcation has been here since 2019.  The USGA allows courses to put a drop zone on the green side of a PA with no adjustment to handicap and the same penalty as if the zone was where the USGA said "It should be."  The USGA/AGA would NEVER run a tournament and put a drop zone on the green side of a Penalty area.  

Sorry if this has been mentioned in the previous 21 pages, I didn't read them all.

 

A level of bifurcation also exists via the tee boxes. Recreational golfers never play from the distances the Tour plays. This discussion mainly focuses on equipment bifurcation.

[cardia10]

It is always interesting to me when doing a USGA survey and they only will allow you to make choices to support their direction. We saw it with the groove rule that was eventually imposed on all of us, even though statistics on tour basically say it was a waste of time and money for the OEM's and we will see it during the distance debacle. The ruling bodies minds are made up, but that applies to less than 1% of the golfing population. We will again be forced to change and I can't see the guys that hit it 230-250 off the tee in most groups being happy with a change that makes the game harder for the masses. It is so short sighted and the results are predictable, but golf has never been a game for the masses so in essence, our voices mean little anyway I guess. At least the pros will only hit it 300 instead of 330. Not sure what that will do to bring classic courses back, but hey, who isn't up for a rule change that kills all our distance and will to live.

Edited November 21, 2022 by cardia10

[Buckle]

37 minutes ago, LICC said:

A level of bifurcation also exists via the tee boxes. Recreational golfers never play from the distances the Tour plays. This discussion mainly focuses on equipment bifurcation.

Thanks for the clarification, Maybe the title should be "Equipment bifurcation is coming"?  or I could read the thread 

[LICC]

52 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

It is always interesting to me when doing a USGA survey and they only will allow you to make choices to support their direction. We saw it with the groove rule that was eventually imposed on all of us, even though statistics on tour basically say it was a waste of time and money for the OEM's and we will see it during the distance debacle. The ruling bodies minds are made up, but that applies to less than 1% of the golfing population. We will again be forced to change and I can't see the guys that hit it 230-250 off the tee in most groups being happy with a change that makes the game harder for the masses. It is so short sighted and the results are predictable, but golf has never been a game for the masses so in essence, our voices mean little anyway I guess. At least the pros will only hit it 300 instead of 330. Not sure what that will do to bring classic courses back, but hey, who isn't up for a rule change that kills all our distance and will to live.

Even if they changed drivers or balls to reduce distance, recreational golfers won’t see a big difference. It’s the super fast swing speeds that are also needed to get the exponential increases in distance. 

[flsw19]

While equipment bifurcation is somewhat a change; but rules of competition and local rules affecting highly skilled players already provided some level of bifurcation. As far as I have observed no local championships are testing equipment of going through bags to insure compliance with conforming lists. While the distance debate makes no sense in terms of most golfers; perhaps the regulating bodies should require longer fairways to reduce roll and cutting greens only every third day; and remove rakes from bunkers for highly skilled players.

 

[WiTerp50]

On 2/2/2021 at 11:03 AM, Middler said:

I assumed bifurcation meant there would be two classes of balls, todays standard and a restricted distance ball of some sort for pros. It never occurred to me they might require two classes of equipment for professional competition - that seems ridiculous to me.

And I wonder when a developing aspiring pro switches balls or equipment in their career. e.g. you get to use whatever you want in junior golf, high school golf, college golf - and then you turn pro and use balls and/or equipment that sets you back substantially? Huh? Imagine working for years to develop the skills to drive the ball 320 yards, and then being forced to hit 250 yards off the tee thereafter - sound good?

Tail wagging the dog. Say the pros are restricted to 350 cc drivers. What are the chances the OEM will continue to develop or even market a non-conforming 460 cc head?  There will be no bifurcation.  Anyone think TP5 or Pro-V will have a longer edition for amateurs? Wouldn’t not mowing fairways so tight and using USGA (4 inches minimum) rough be worth a try?  Adjust green side bunkers so the risk of dropping a second shot in the bunker on a par 5 is worse than coming up 20 yards short? Only need to do this at tournament level courses. Far better than impacting millions of golfers became of a thousand top tier golfers.