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Because it is the equipment that is the predominant source of the distance explosion. Cut the fairways a little higher and you will get a few yards less roll. Make every course extremely penal and one-dimensional and you get boring golf.

You have said that you want more risk/reward golf. Given how strokes gained works, what does non boring golf look like to you?
We have talked about 10 at riviera, given that players hit the ball some distance you look at where to can hit it and hit it as far as you can. Distances will change but strategies won’t. I know you don’t like Scott Fawcett but if you ignore the person and look at the methodology that is how golf is played. Decisions are based on facts and not emotion or where the player is positioned in a field.
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I'm sure we will hear all about the evil's of bifurcation shortly but I'm not in that camp.  I played baseball in High School and College at a very interesting time.  My senior year of High School was

What do you see the average being?  250 yards? How do you limit the equipment to maintain that average over time.  I personally think you are underestimating how people adapt to change to become more

I am in the wait and see corner on this. We already have some bifurcation within golf...one ball local rule, rangefinder usage, and tee boxes to name a couple. The biggest issue is that there rea

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59 minutes ago, cnosil said:


You have said that you want more risk/reward golf. Given how strokes gained works, what does non boring golf look like to you?
We have talked about 10 at riviera, given that players hit the ball some distance you look at where to can hit it and hit it as far as you can. Distances will change but strategies won’t. I know you don’t like Scott Fawcett but if you ignore the person and look at the methodology that is how golf is played. Decisions are based on facts and not emotion or where the player is positioned in a field.

I agree again, we can't roll back the clock on knowledge.  The idea of Strokes Gained cannot and will not ever be replaced in golf.  Lowest Score wins, Decade, Every Shot Counts, there's just too much knowledge available.  Players will never go back to "lay up to a good yardage" when statistics show that they'll score lower by hitting it as close as possible.  We may prefer a different style of play, but smart players are going to use whatever style gets them to the best scores.

Let me edit this to add, Strokes Gained may at some point be replaced.  The knowledge won't go away, but we may find out down the road that better statistical evaluations become available.  Nothing is forever, but knowledge generally grows, we won't be going backwards.

Edited by DaveP043
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1 hour ago, cnosil said:


You have said that you want more risk/reward golf. Given how strokes gained works, what does non boring golf look like to you?
We have talked about 10 at riviera, given that players hit the ball some distance you look at where to can hit it and hit it as far as you can. Distances will change but strategies won’t. I know you don’t like Scott Fawcett but if you ignore the person and look at the methodology that is how golf is played. Decisions are based on facts and not emotion or where the player is positioned in a field.

Having the ball land 20-30 yards closer than otherwise will changed the strokes gained choices. Players were changing and simplifying their decisions due to increased distance before strokes gained statistics came to be.

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Having the ball land 20-30 yards closer than otherwise will changed the strokes gained choices. Players were changing and simplifying their decisions due to increased distance before strokes gained statistics came to be.

We will have to disagree on that point; I am pretty sure shotlink shows hole strategy has evolved for all players in the past few years.

You still didn’t answer How do you think your proposed changes will make the game more exciting?
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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

You can go to the USGA website and see Distance Reports from 2015 to the present.  Bryson won the US Amateur in 2015, I'm pretty sure they didn't start this project based on some pimply college kid.  The Distance Insights project was begun in early 2018, and in 2017 Bryson ranked #45 in driving distance.  I just don't think Bryson had anything to do with the decision to collect and evaluate distance information.  Similarly, I don't think that spending 2 years to compile and evaluate data is a particularly rash decision.  Spending an additional year to more clearly define additional areas for further evaluation is particularly rash.    

So you don’t think that Bryson’s quest for hitting it longer, what he did at the US Open, his 380 yard drives, the constant media coverage of him and his plan, and the spoken desire by others to follow suit didn’t do anything at all to move the discussion further forward? 
Wow. It’s the most purely coincidental discussion about distance in golf history then....

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So you don’t think that Bryson’s quest for hitting it longer, what he did at the US Open, his 380 yard drives, the constant media coverage of him and his plan, and the spoken desire by others to follow suit didn’t do anything at all to move the discussion further forward? 
Wow. It’s the most purely coincidental discussion about distance in golf history then....

I don’t think he disagrees that it is part of the discussion today. But as stated the investigation into limiting distance Began before Bryson really started his distance quest. Bryson is the gas being added to the fire to make it seem like a bigger issue.
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Just now, PMookie said:

So you don’t think that Bryson’s quest for hitting it longer, what he did at the US Open, his 380 yard drives, the constant media coverage of him and his plan, and the spoken desire by others to follow suit didn’t do anything at all to move the discussion further forward? 
Wow. It’s the most purely coincidental discussion about distance in golf history then....

The USGA/R&A released reports in February, 2020, and in the Conclusions they presented their plans for future study.  This was well before Bryson's performance in the US Open.  Twelve months later, they've released more detailed list of the things slated for additional study.  Essentially, the 2021 Report (AB, or After-Bryson) included nearly identical language to the 2020 Report, which was PB (Pre-Bryson).  Based on the extremely minimal changes between the two reports, I'd say Bryson had little or no impact on the findings.  Unless you think they were clairvoyant, and they produced the February 202 report knowing in advance that Bryson would be so successful in his quest for distance, and that he'd win the US Open.

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

Carry is a major issue. When players don't even blink at a hazard 280 yards away, that defeats course strategy.

But that capability is involves way fewer players than nearly the entire field getting 20+ yards of rollout...which adds to the total average distance... which is at the core of this discussion.  

But, yes, I get your point.  Dig some new traps where the Big Guns land and problems solved.  Traps are just holes in the ground filled with sand.  They reduce grass which has to lower maintenance costs... what would be the downside?

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23 minutes ago, PMookie said:

So you don’t think that Bryson’s quest for hitting it longer, what he did at the US Open, his 380 yard drives, the constant media coverage of him and his plan, and the spoken desire by others to follow suit didn’t do anything at all to move the discussion further forward? 
Wow. It’s the most purely coincidental discussion about distance in golf history then....

We all know that golfers especially at the pro level are trying to hit the ball further but curious who you think has looked at Bryson and said I’m going that route? Or maybe who he’s influenced to look at trying it?

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39 minutes ago, cnosil said:


We will have to disagree on that point; I am pretty sure shotlink shows hole strategy has evolved for all players in the past few years.

You still didn’t answer How do you think your proposed changes will make the game more exciting?

I've said it several times earlier. It would make the game more fun to watch for fans. It would bring back more strategic risk/reward decisions consistent with course designs, more variety of shots and shotmaking, and more challenge.

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34 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

We all know that golfers especially at the pro level are trying to hit the ball further but curious who you think has looked at Bryson and said I’m going that route? Or maybe who he’s influenced to look at trying it?

Notice how many of us are doing speed training? How many since Bryson have added it to their workouts? How prevalent it’s become? Sure, folks were doing it before, but every weekend comments on speed training are mentioned. They see what gains Bryson has accomplished and have begun to add various methods to workouts. Good gracious, after he won the US Open it’s all anyone talked about for weeks. Everyone was asked on the podium about Bryson and his results.

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43 minutes ago, PMookie said:

Notice how many of us are doing speed training? How many since Bryson have added it to their workouts? How prevalent it’s become? Sure, folks were doing it before, but every weekend comments on speed training are mentioned. They see what gains Bryson has accomplished and have begun to add various methods to workouts. Good gracious, after he won the US Open it’s all anyone talked about for weeks. Everyone was asked on the podium about Bryson and his results.

But was that because of Bryson or because of other data. Phil has been doing superspeed training before Bryson started his journey to get bigger to get longer. Guys like Spieth, Smylie and some others chased the distance and have ruined their games. 

As mentioned getting longer has always been part of the game especially via fitness and training since Tiger came on the scene and various aids have been invented since to help with that. 

Yes everyone is being asked about Bryson and what he’s doing but you won’t hear any of the pros talking about how they are planning to go the Bryson route. 

As far as I see it there’s nobody that has looked at what Bryson has done and said that’s my goal. 

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9 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

As far as I see it there’s nobody that has looked at what Bryson has done and said that’s my goal. 

No just amateurs such as myself seem to have had an uptick with the Bryson changes since it was the transformation I feel like. Off topic but Tiger, Dustin, Rory were long when they arrived on tour and have stayed there. I think Bryson captured the imagination of the average golfer a bit going from pretty long, to longest on tour (with some real high end numbers). I think it showed how much could be gained even for experienced golfers.

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2 hours ago, LICC said:

I've said it several times earlier. It would make the game more fun to watch for fans. It would bring back more strategic risk/reward decisions consistent with course designs, more variety of shots and shotmaking, and more challenge.

It would make it more fun for some golf fans.   What do you consider a strategic risk reward decision and how would shots be more varied and what do you consider shotmaking?  You have said you don't like target golf in another thread.      How would it be any different that hit the ball as far as possible off the tee with driver and instead of a short iron hit a mid iron into the green.  Maybe you make more par 5s 3 shot holes.    I don't see much strategy change other than hitting a longer club into the green. 

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4 hours ago, cnosil said:

It would make it more fun for some golf fans.   What do you consider a strategic risk reward decision and how would shots be more varied and what do you consider shotmaking?  You have said you don't like target golf in another thread.      How would it be any different that hit the ball as far as possible off the tee with driver and instead of a short iron hit a mid iron into the green.  Maybe you make more par 5s 3 shot holes.    I don't see much strategy change other than hitting a longer club into the green. 

Really? You don't see how if you can't fly a hazard, and that hazard is strategically located in a risk-reward manner, that you now have to consider how to play your shot? You don't see how the difference between being in the fairway and being in the rough takes on more impact the farther away you are from the green? I can't believe you don't understand this.

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14 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

But was that because of Bryson or because of other data. Phil has been doing superspeed training before Bryson started his journey to get bigger to get longer. Guys like Spieth, Smylie and some others chased the distance and have ruined their games. 

As mentioned getting longer has always been part of the game especially via fitness and training since Tiger came on the scene and various aids have been invented since to help with that. 

Yes everyone is being asked about Bryson and what he’s doing but you won’t hear any of the pros talking about how they are planning to go the Bryson route. 

As far as I see it there’s nobody that has looked at what Bryson has done and said that’s my goal. 

Goes to show everyone's style is different--- You have to play to your strengths--- Back in the day Corey pavin was short compared to Nicklaus and Jim Dent but man was he was one heck of a long iron player and putter.  Jordan has one heck of a short game and is usually a fantastic putter. I think his driving woes frustrated his overall game some but I think he is getting his head together. 

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18 hours ago, LICC said:

I've said it several times earlier. It would make the game more fun to watch for fans. It would bring back more strategic risk/reward decisions consistent with course designs, more variety of shots and shotmaking, and more challenge.

What you are describing is your personal preference.  Shorter distance would NOT make it more fun for all fans, only for a percentage of them.  This is a line of reasoning I have an issue with, golf is about getting the ball in the hole, not a particular preferred style of play.  I really don't mind that more modern players have come up with better ways of getting the ball in the hole, I don't care that distance has made the traditional shot values somewhat obsolete, or has at least changed the relative importance of certain skills.  That's simply the evolution of golf.  Bobby Jones said that Nicklaus played a game with which he (Jones) was not familiar, but he didn't claim that Jack was somehow ruining the game, or making it less exciting.

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13 hours ago, LICC said:

Really? You don't see how if you can't fly a hazard, and that hazard is strategically located in a risk-reward manner, that you now have to consider how to play your shot? You don't see how the difference between being in the fairway and being in the rough takes on more impact the farther away you are from the green? I can't believe you don't understand this.

If it is determined that the hazard is too big of a penalty if they land there, they play short of the hazard - no risk reward or new decision on how to play a shot.   

Yes,  being in the fairway vs being in the rough has more impact the farther you are from the green.  But that same difference occurs using todays lengths.  All you are doing is making them play a longer club. 

I understand completely.     Player gets on tee box and knows how far they hit the ball and the impact of landing in the various hazards and rough and based on strokes gained they have a predefined strategy on how to play the hole.  They hit shot and deal with the results.   Move to where the ball is and do the same thing.     

Your belief is that some players may decide that they are willing to take a chance and see if they can avoid the hazard; basically changing to a more aggressive strategy because they need to make something happen.    It seems the root cause of your wanting to change distance is that you want to change the underlying strategy on how players play the game.    I personally don't think that players will undergo this change as they better understand the impacts of making poor decisions on the course.   

The thing I don't understand is why you think decreased distance will make player play a different strategy.  

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3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

What you are describing is your personal preference.  Shorter distance would NOT make it more fun for all fans, only for a percentage of them.  This is a line of reasoning I have an issue with, golf is about getting the ball in the hole, not a particular preferred style of play.  I really don't mind that more modern players have come up with better ways of getting the ball in the hole, I don't care that distance has made the traditional shot values somewhat obsolete, or has at least changed the relative importance of certain skills.  That's simply the evolution of golf.  Bobby Jones said that Nicklaus played a game with which he (Jones) was not familiar, but he didn't claim that Jack was somehow ruining the game, or making it less exciting.

The Distance Insights surveys show that a large majority of fans would prefer to see the distance gains stopped for the Tours. Yes, it is personal opinion. The whole forum is people debating their opinions. 
 

Bobby Jones said Nicklaus played a game which he was not familiar. He didn’t say that half the entire Tour played a game which he was not familiar. Like I said earlier, golf went more than 50 years with minor incremental changes in distance and then it exploded.

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39 minutes ago, LICC said:

The Distance Insights surveys show that a large majority of fans would prefer to see the distance gains stopped for the Tours. Yes, it is personal opinion. The whole forum is people debating their opinions. 
 

Bobby Jones said Nicklaus played a game which he was not familiar. He didn’t say that half the entire Tour played a game which he was not familiar. Like I said earlier, golf went more than 50 years with minor incremental changes in distance and then it exploded.

Exactly where does the Report say that most fans think decreasing distance would make pro golf more fun to watch?  Thats what you claimed.

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