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12 minutes ago, LICC said:

@MiddlerI don't see anything equating weight training and distance increases. With one exception (Bryson, which is questionable as he made major swing changes as he also bulked up), there is not one Tour player who significantly increased distance from prior to weight training to afterward.

Here is just one player's example. 

 

Physical strength was key, as well. That paid off on two holes on TPC Scottsdale’s front nine, where it’s easy to overlook a player’s performance. According to Tesori, Simpson’s weight has increased from 174 pounds in 2017 to 200 today. He lost three pounds of body fat in the process. His increased strength has allowed him to summon an extra 7-8 yards off the tee when necessary and rely more on his “fairway finder” swing without leaving himself too far behind the competition.

 

https://www.pgatour.com/tour-insider/2021/02/01/webb-simpson-outlier-among-golf-elite-players-waste-management-phoenix-open.html#:~:text=Simpson's average driving distance in,to 107th in that statistic.

 

@FrogginBullfish had the best take in this thread...

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I'm sure we will hear all about the evil's of bifurcation shortly but I'm not in that camp.  I played baseball in High School and College at a very interesting time.  My senior year of High School was

What do you see the average being?  250 yards? How do you limit the equipment to maintain that average over time.  I personally think you are underestimating how people adapt to change to become more

I am in the wait and see corner on this. We already have some bifurcation within golf...one ball local rule, rangefinder usage, and tee boxes to name a couple. The biggest issue is that there rea

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Just leave the game alone. There are already restrictions on the equipment. I don't think there is going to be much more distance than we are seeing now. Distance gains for the foreseeable future, with equipment restrictions in tact, will only garner more distance from practice, technique, innovation and desire on the part of the player.

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13 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Here is just one player's example. 

 

Physical strength was key, as well. That paid off on two holes on TPC Scottsdale’s front nine, where it’s easy to overlook a player’s performance. According to Tesori, Simpson’s weight has increased from 174 pounds in 2017 to 200 today. He lost three pounds of body fat in the process. His increased strength has allowed him to summon an extra 7-8 yards off the tee when necessary and rely more on his “fairway finder” swing without leaving himself too far behind the competition.

 

https://www.pgatour.com/tour-insider/2021/02/01/webb-simpson-outlier-among-golf-elite-players-waste-management-phoenix-open.html#:~:text=Simpson's average driving distance in,to 107th in that statistic.

 

@FrogginBullfish had the best take in this thread...

Webb Simpson average driving distance in 2018: 294.

Webb Simpson average driving distance in 2020: 296.

Webb Simpson average driving distance in 2021: 293.

Webb Simpson average driving distance in 2011: 296.

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

@MiddlerI don't see anything equating weight training and distance increases. With one exception (Bryson, which is questionable as he made major swing changes as he also bulked up), there is not one Tour player who significantly increased distance from prior to weight training to afterward.

WADR, that’s willful ignorance on your part. Weight and flexibility training and coaching has been a part of developing new players since Tiger made it work for him. It starts when elite players are very young, it’s not as if players are unaware and make a radical change once they turn pro - DeChambeau is an exception not the rule in this regard.

I’m not going to find all the evidence for you since your mind is made up. From the 2020 Distance Report, the R&A and USGA acknowledge it’s not just balls and equipment:

“The R&A and the USGA believe, however, that any further significant increases in hitting distances at the highest level are undesirable. Whether these increases in distance emanate from advancing equipment technology, greater athleticism of players, improved player coaching, golf course conditioning or a combination of these or other factors, they will have the impact of seriously reducing the challenge of the game. The consequential lengthening or toughening of courses would be costly or impossible and would have a negative effect on increasingly important environmental and ecological issues. Pace of play would be slowed and playing costs would increase.

The R&A and the USGA will consider all of these factors contributing to distance on a regular basis. Should such a situation of meaningful increases in distances arise, the R&A and the USGA would feel it immediately necessary to seek ways of protecting the game.“

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Only read the first page, but nobody has mentioned the OEMs there.

The biggest pushback on bifurcation will come from them. “Tour” equipment is a big part of their sales pitch to consumers.

Titleist doesn’t want joe average to think his ball isn’t the same Pro V Justin Thomas plays, same thing with Callaway, Ping and Taylormade with their drivers.

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18 minutes ago, Grand Stranded said:

Only read the first page, but nobody has mentioned the OEMs there.

The biggest pushback on bifurcation will come from them. “Tour” equipment is a big part of their sales pitch to consumers.

Titleist doesn’t want joe average to think his ball isn’t the same Pro V Justin Thomas plays, same thing with Callaway, Ping and Taylormade with their drivers.

Extra clubs they’ll have to make...

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I think it's appropriate to say this again, there is absolutely nothing new regarding bifurcation in today's release.

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Bifurcation was the last major project I worked on before retiring... and that's all I can say about that without getting jail time 😉

As it pertains to our sport, I'm in the wait and see group.  Already some great points made for and against - not too much to add there.  I guess my biggest disappointment is that they chose this route first rather than some of the other options, like turf length, that is easy to do and, at worst, dosen't solve the pro distance thingy.  It just seems this is the nuclear option.

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2 hours ago, LICC said:

Do you have anything at all to show that it has? The data and anecdotal evidence are clear that the distance gains are predominantly from equipment advances. This desire to think that golfers are now more skilled or have better technique is just wishful thinking.

Here is an example that it isn't predominantly equipment advances.    45 year old golfer (non long drive competitor where they were getting 350 during that timeframe as well) getting 300+ with 25 year old equipment.  Todays players could do the exact same thing.  

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

For me it's less about the actual bifurcation than it is that I just flat-out disagree with the reasoning they're pushing for implementing it. I don't think distance is an issue, but rather people are making it an issue by refusing to adapt to the way the modern game is played. When you have architects who are unwilling to adapt their so-called design intent, which is another rabbit hole I don't wish to go down at this point, but would instead just rather take the hard earned distance advantage away from someone like Bryson so they feel better about the number on the bottom of the club he hit into a green, it's not something I can get behind.

Golf is a game built around getting the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes possible. How you get there shouldn't matter. There's a lot of ways to shoot the same score in golf. But it still takes a complete game to win on tour. Time and time again we see this reflected in the player hoisting the trophy at the end of the week.

This is just my opinion of course and I've gotten involved in far too many Twitter discussions on the topic in the past that have basically gone nowhere. I don't expect my take to sway any opinions here either on this topic but I'm sharing it anyway.

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The only problem with that is you cant just continue to make golf courses longer.  Golf already has ecological issues with land use and theres some courses that simply cant be lengthened.  Does anyone really want to see a course like Pebble Beach eliminated as a possible major championship venue?

If something isnt done, a lot of classic courses will have to be eliminated.

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6 hours ago, Hook DeLoft said:

At some point the pro game will be like watching a combo of a long drive contest and the national miniature golf championship.

Now that's funny 🤣.

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1 hour ago, BadgerGolfer said:

The only problem with that is you cant just continue to make golf courses longer.  Golf already has ecological issues with land use and theres some courses that simply cant be lengthened.  Does anyone really want to see a course like Pebble Beach eliminated as a possible major championship venue?

If something isnt done, a lot of classic courses will have to be eliminated.

I don't really want to get too in the weeds on this or have a discussion really cause as I've said earlier, I doubt I'll sway anyone and I've heard every argument in favour of a ball rollback and not one has done anything to sway me either so rather than having a pointless discussion, I'll just address how I view the lengthening the golf course issue and you can take it for whatever its worth to you.

 

I don't agree that the only way to combat distance gains on tour is to lengthen the golf course. There are other alternatives available, some of which have been mentioned in this thread already, that will help with golf's sustainability and environmental impact already. Plus, most courses on Tour aren't even using their full available yardage when hosting a tournament and when they do, it's usually only during one round. Lou Stagner has done plenty of research about this already and the info is on his Twitter account if you'd like to have a look.

 

I don't think courses like Pebble Beach will ever be made obsolete unless the governing bodies and architects refuse to adapt their design philosophies to actually meet the modern game. And currently the only design philosophy they have in regards to that is lengthening the course, but that just continues to not make much of a difference at all. Adam Scott said it at Bellerive for the PGA Championship a couple years back, the length of the course doesn't matter to them. How the course plays is what dictates winning score more often than the actual yardage on the golf course. And then there's the added con that a 7,800+ yard golf course only favours the bombers more. The unnecessary lengthening of courses to force the longest hitters on tour, who account for such a small percentage of players on tour anyway, into hitting mid to long irons into greens only hurts the shorter players. Lengthening the golf course to those levels takes a huge chunk of the field out of contention before the tournament even starts. That's not to say a 280 yard hitter can NEVER win on a 7,800 yard course, they just have absolutely no room for error on a course like that.

 

As I said before, there's a lot of ways to shoot 68 in golf but the only way to win golf tournaments consistently is to play a complete game across all facets. That's what I care about. That the player who played the best golf wins the tournament and that's usually the case every week on Tour. Anyways, that's all I have to say on the topic right now.

 

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13 hours ago, cnosil said:

Here is an example that it isn't predominantly equipment advances.    45 year old golfer (non long drive competitor where they were getting 350 during that timeframe as well) getting 300+ with 25 year old equipment.  Todays players could do the exact same thing.  

Eh. This is silliness from a salesman. I'm talking about the Tour, and I'm not putting stock into some indoor simulator readings.

A few years ago a number of Tour pros, the big hitters, (I believe Tony Finau and Jason Kokrak among them) hit old Ben Hogan clubs on a range, with modern balls. IIRC, they averaged 260-270 with the driver. And then after that at a tournament at Cherry Hills, a number of Tour pros, including Rory McIlroy, hit the old driver and balls off the first tee to recreate Arnold Palmer driving the green at the 1960 US Open. No one came close. Rory did the best reaching the bunker at the front of the green.

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12 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

The unnecessary lengthening of courses to force the longest hitters on tour, who account for such a small percentage of players on tour anyway

Last year, 72 players averaged 300+ yard drives. 117 players averaged 295+.

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15 hours ago, Middler said:

Whether these increases in distance emanate from advancing equipment technology, greater athleticism of players, improved player coaching, golf course conditioning or a combination of these or other factors, they will have the impact of seriously reducing the challenge of the game.

That is a speculative statement, not a conclusion.

The best example for your hypothesis is Scott Stallings. For years on Tour he was very overweight and out of shape with no fitness regimen. He then incorporated diligent weight-training, cross-fit type training, etc., and became very fit and in shape. And it resulted in no increase in his driving distance.

I analogize it to throwing a baseball. The fast-twitch muscles used for that type of athletic movement do not get much enhanced by weight training. Someone may get slightly marginal increases, but no one is going from throwing an 85mph fastball to a 95mph fastball by lifting weights.

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3 minutes ago, LICC said:

That is a speculative statement, not a conclusion.

The best example for your hypothesis is Scott Stallings. For years on Tour he was very overweight and out of shape with no fitness regimen. He then incorporated diligent weight-training, cross-fit type training, etc., and became very fit and in shape. And it resulted in no increase in his driving distance.

I analogize it to throwing a baseball. The fast-twitch muscles used for that type of athletic movement do not get much enhanced by weight training. Someone may get slightly marginal increases, but no one is going from throwing an 85mph fastball to a 95mph fastball by lifting weights.

Same argument you used to make on wrx befor getting banned there and you were proven wrong numerous times on that side in similar threads and never admitted to being shown wrong. 

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58 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Same argument you used to make on wrx befor getting banned there and you were proven wrong numerous times on that side in similar threads and never admitted to being shown wrong. 

Which shows why the mygolfspy forum is so great. It doesn't have a bunch of overly sensitive, insecure cancel-culture types.

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Either I saw an interview or read an article. But in any case I think it was Greg Norman. He said the easiest way to address this issue was to restrict the tee height. Then they proceeded to show how they are now using longer tees to hit up on the ball much more than in the past. They showed Bryson's ball on the tee and his swing path and compared it to a shorter tee and the path it needs to take.

Could this help? I don't know, but I thought it was a very different approach to the distance issue.     

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16 minutes ago, LICC said:

Which shows why the mygolfspy forum is so great. It doesn't have a bunch of overly sensitive, insecure cancel-culture types.

Iirc it wasn’t so much cancel culture but rather your constant blocking of people who proved your take wrong in numerous occasions, then flagging their posts when they disagreed with you and your constant harping on the subjects with the same rhetoric in multiple threads. At least from what my memory recalls from surfing the site 

 

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