Jump to content

Bifurcation coming!


PMookie
 Share

Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Iirc it wasn’t so much cancel culture but rather your constant blocking of people who proved your take wrong in numerous occasions, then flagging their posts when they disagreed with you and your constant harping on the subjects with the same rhetoric in multiple threads. At least from what my memory recalls from surfing the site 

 

I would say you definitely do not recall correctly. What is this proof of which you speak?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I came to read about Bifurcation and instead just witnessed one person argue with everyone in here. I am no longer interested in this topic. 

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1

2020 TESTER Ben Hogan UiHi 18* Utility Iron

Driver:     - Anser - 8.5* - Fujikara Red Blur 005 XStiff - Standard L/L

3W:     - SQ Sumo - Mitsubishi Rayon Diamana Stiff - Standard L/L

Hybrid 3:     - Machspeed - UST Mamiya AXIVCore XStiff -Standard L/L

Irons:      - Idea Black CB3  4-GW - KBS Tour Stiff+ - Standard L/L

Wedges:    - Vokey 52*, 54*, 60* - True Temper Wedge - Standard L/L

Putter:     - Versa Blade - 35in

Ball:      NXT Tour

Bag:  - Ultra Light Cart Bag  

Loc: USA/MD

Handicap: 13

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Either I saw an interview or read an article. But in any case I think it was Greg Norman. He said the easiest way to address this issue was to restrict the tee height. Then they proceeded to show how they are now using longer tees to hit up on the ball much more than in the past. They showed Bryson's ball on the tee and his swing path and compared it to a shorter tee and the path it needs to take.
Could this help? I don't know, but I thought it was a very different approach to the distance issue.     
I think the easiest way is to slow down the fairways. When watching the US Open at Winged Foot the announcers were taking about the field averaging 40 yards of roll if they hit the fairway. That's ridiculous. Or do what Nicklaus says and roll the ball back, not the clubs.

Take Dead Aim

  • Like 2

Take Dead Aim

Driver: Titleist 915 D3 10.5* 

Fairway: Titleist 917 F3 15*

Hybrid: Adams Idea Pro Boxer Gold 18*

Irons: Titleist 714CB 4-PW

Wedges: Vokey SM5 & SM6 50/54/58

Putter: Odyssey Versa #7 32"

Ball: Srixon Z-Star

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This topic really is a mind-boggling one. Decades of research and studies and data, yet opinions always seem to prevail. To me it’s not a debate, the research clearly shows what’s happening and the USGA and R&A choose to not follow it. It’s been a year since they released their own report detailing everything related to the “distance problem” and nothing has changed. They clearly have no idea what they’re doing and feel pressure to “do something”.

Every bit of information I have seen shows that equipment limitation(club or ball) will create a disproportionate advantage to long hitters. To me, that’s just the laws of physics. Length comes from speed, no matter what equipment is used.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eh. This is silliness from a salesman. I'm talking about the Tour, and I'm not putting stock into some indoor simulator readings.
A few years ago a number of Tour pros, the big hitters, (I believe Tony Finau and Jason Kokrak among them) hit old Ben Hogan clubs on a range, with modern balls. IIRC, they averaged 260-270 with the driver. And then after that at a tournament at Cherry Hills, a number of Tour pros, including Rory McIlroy, hit the old driver and balls off the first tee to recreate Arnold Palmer driving the green at the 1960 US Open. No one came close. Rory did the best reaching the bunker at the front of the green.

My counter is that you are an amateur golfer that has no clue what a pro could do if given a chance to play the old equipment. You site a staged recreation that was designed to make Arnold Palmer look good.

I still say that technology has taught players how to better utilize the equipment in their hands.

Equipment changes will create the same separation between golfers. Scores will not change. But some people will be happy that the players aren’t hitting wedges.
  • Like 5

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 5-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  logo-horizontal-black.svg Directed Force 2.1

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787, :seemore-small: mFGP2

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, LICC said:

.

I analogize it to throwing a baseball. The fast-twitch muscles used for that type of athletic movement do not get much enhanced by weight training. Someone may get slightly marginal increases, but no one is going from throwing an 85mph fastball to a 95mph fastball by lifting weights.

this is absolutely and completely untrue 

as someone who’s been on both sides of the athlete/trainer relationship, i can tell you first hand that increased strength from weight training, especially explosive speed/strength compound movements will absolutely translate to increases in velocity, running speed, bat speed, club head speed, or whatever metric you choose to evaluate for your given sport. 

i’m not gonna weigh in on the bifurcation issue, i’m just here bc what you said above is a flagrant lie. 

  • Like 5
  • Love 1

image.png.926c5dbfc594427870bc33c43f290630.pngSIM2 8º | KuroKage XD 70TX 

  image.png.4f15ae5144722103242556b2db6d1033.pngSIM 3W 14º | Fujikura Atmos Black Tour Spec 9TX

image.png.bce9eebd9a20266703b359d88959bbcb.pngSIM2 5W 18º | Fujikura Ventus Black 10X
Titleist logo | Logo gallery, Golf birthday party, Logo designU500 2i | Fujikura Ventus HB Black 10TX
Titleist logo | Logo gallery, Golf birthday party, Logo design T100 4-PW | Dynamic Gold X7
Vokey Design Vector Logo | Free Download - (.SVG   .PNG) format - VTLogo.com SM6 52* SM8 56* SM8 60* | Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100
SIK Golf Partners with GolfPlus to Host Entry Level Professional Events!  DW | BGT Stability Tour

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, cnosil said:


My counter is that you are an amateur golfer that has no clue what a pro could do if given a chance to play the old equipment. You site a staged recreation that was designed to make Arnold Palmer look good.

I still say that technology has taught players how to better utilize the equipment in their hands.

Equipment changes will create the same separation between golfers. Scores will not change. But some people will be happy that the players aren’t hitting wedges.

We have more than a clue. We have Tour pros who hit the old equipment to compare. Not just at Cherry Hills (which I don't agree with discounting because you think the pros for some reason were trying to not hit it far so Arnold Palmer could look good), but at a range with measured readings. We also have the Champions Tour stats which show players in their late 50s- early 60s hitting it 20-30 yards farther than they did in their 20s. As to being taught how to swing better, it's not like players a few decades ago didn't know how to hit up on the ball.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

this is absolutely and completely untrue 

as someone who’s been on both sides of the athlete/trainer relationship, i can tell you first hand that increased strength from weight training, especially explosive speed/strength compound movements will absolutely translate to increases in velocity, running speed, bat speed, club head speed, or whatever metric you choose to evaluate for your given sport. 

i’m not gonna weigh in on the bifurcation issue, i’m just here bc what you said above is a flagrant lie. 

Do you have any examples of a MLB pitcher who added more than 3mph on his fastball from weight training compared to prior to weight training (non-steroids)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, LICC said:

Do you have any examples of a MLB pitcher who added more than 3mph on his fastball from weight training compared to prior to weight training (non-steroids)?

here’s one...

54C294FD-1F66-410F-B93A-710670DD0162.png

  • Like 1

image.png.926c5dbfc594427870bc33c43f290630.pngSIM2 8º | KuroKage XD 70TX 

  image.png.4f15ae5144722103242556b2db6d1033.pngSIM 3W 14º | Fujikura Atmos Black Tour Spec 9TX

image.png.bce9eebd9a20266703b359d88959bbcb.pngSIM2 5W 18º | Fujikura Ventus Black 10X
Titleist logo | Logo gallery, Golf birthday party, Logo designU500 2i | Fujikura Ventus HB Black 10TX
Titleist logo | Logo gallery, Golf birthday party, Logo design T100 4-PW | Dynamic Gold X7
Vokey Design Vector Logo | Free Download - (.SVG   .PNG) format - VTLogo.com SM6 52* SM8 56* SM8 60* | Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100
SIK Golf Partners with GolfPlus to Host Entry Level Professional Events!  DW | BGT Stability Tour

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

here’s one...

54C294FD-1F66-410F-B93A-710670DD0162.png

From the same article, deGrom himself does not attribute this to weight training:

So, how is deGrom doing this? All it took was a little extra time off and a little more tinkering, according to the man himself.

“This [coronavirus] break -- and even in spring, just working on my delivery -- I actually feel like it’s coming out with less effort than in years past,” deGrom told MLB.com’s Anthony DiComo on Monday. “I think just with that time off, I continued to work on my delivery, and feel like everything’s kind of in line where I want it to be.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have more than a clue. We have Tour pros who hit the old equipment to compare. Not just at Cherry Hills (which I don't agree with discounting because you think the pros for some reason were trying to not hit it far so Arnold Palmer could look good), but at a range with measured readings. We also have the Champions Tour stats which show players in their late 50s- early 60s hitting it 20-30 yards farther than they did in their 20s. As to being taught how to swing better, it's not like players a few decades ago didn't know how to hit up on the ball.

Obviously you have your thoughts and there is no one that can provide you any information that will change your mind and you will only look at evidence that supports your mindset.

You have established your bias and it just isn’t worth discussing this anymore with you.
  • Like 8
  • Love 1

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 5-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  logo-horizontal-black.svg Directed Force 2.1

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787, :seemore-small: mFGP2

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:


Obviously you have your thoughts and there is no one that can provide you any information that will change your mind and you will only look at evidence that supports your mindset.

You have established your bias and it just isn’t worth discussing this anymore with you.

Can't you say the same thing about yourself? I'm providing examples and data. I'm happy to change my mind if you have other good examples or data that support a different conclusion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, LICC said:

From the same article, deGrom himself does not attribute this to weight training:

So, how is deGrom doing this? All it took was a little extra time off and a little more tinkering, according to the man himself.

“This [coronavirus] break -- and even in spring, just working on my delivery -- I actually feel like it’s coming out with less effort than in years past,” deGrom told MLB.com’s Anthony DiComo on Monday. “I think just with that time off, I continued to work on my delivery, and feel like everything’s kind of in line where I want it to be.”

if you think it has 0 to do with lifting weights then i’ve got a bridge to sell you. 

here’s an article outlining how hard he and syndergaard train 

https://www.mensjournal.com/sports/ny-mets-pitchers-noah-syndergaard-and-jacob-degrom-reveal-their-training-secrets-mlb/

also, degrom is up about 20 lbs from when he debuted. 

furthermore, your question as written is pretty un-answerable. there are few MLB players who give you a full breakdown of their training during and in the offseason to be able to do a direct comparison of MPH to training programs. 

you could always look at the startling increase in league-wide velocity, along with the number of guys who come out of college throwing 92-93 and get to the big leagues throwing 96-97. 

or you could continue to believe that you and you alone are right. 

i know which option i’ve got $20 on. 

  • Like 2

image.png.926c5dbfc594427870bc33c43f290630.pngSIM2 8º | KuroKage XD 70TX 

  image.png.4f15ae5144722103242556b2db6d1033.pngSIM 3W 14º | Fujikura Atmos Black Tour Spec 9TX

image.png.bce9eebd9a20266703b359d88959bbcb.pngSIM2 5W 18º | Fujikura Ventus Black 10X
Titleist logo | Logo gallery, Golf birthday party, Logo designU500 2i | Fujikura Ventus HB Black 10TX
Titleist logo | Logo gallery, Golf birthday party, Logo design T100 4-PW | Dynamic Gold X7
Vokey Design Vector Logo | Free Download - (.SVG   .PNG) format - VTLogo.com SM6 52* SM8 56* SM8 60* | Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100
SIK Golf Partners with GolfPlus to Host Entry Level Professional Events!  DW | BGT Stability Tour

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Chip Strokes said:

if you think it has 0 to do with lifting weights then i’ve got a bridge to sell you. 

here’s an article outlining how hard he and syndergaard train 

https://www.mensjournal.com/sports/ny-mets-pitchers-noah-syndergaard-and-jacob-degrom-reveal-their-training-secrets-mlb/

also, degrom is up about 20 lbs from when he debuted. 

furthermore, your question as written is pretty un-answerable. there are few MLB players who give you a full breakdown of their training during and in the offseason to be able to do a direct comparison of MPH to training programs. 

you could always look at the startling increase in league-wide velocity, along with the number of guys who come out of college throwing 92-93 and get to the big leagues throwing 96-97. 

or you could continue to believe that you and you alone are right. 

i know which option i’ve got $20 on. 

Where are you getting his weight from? The NY Times in 2018: " For the past several years, deGrom weighed 183 pounds. His metabolism has apparently been impervious to all the chicken fingers, fries and fast food he loves, particularly Chick-fil-A and McDonald's, where he typically orders a Big Mac meal with large fries, a large Mountain Dew and two double cheeseburgers." This year he is listed at 180 pounds.

So you have zero examples to support your claim. Maybe you should have good information to back your position before you call someone a liar and thus present yourself in such a poor manner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, LICC said:

 

So you have zero examples to support your claim. Maybe you should have good information to back your position before you call someone a liar and thus present yourself in such a poor manner.

have a great day!

  • Like 2

image.png.926c5dbfc594427870bc33c43f290630.pngSIM2 8º | KuroKage XD 70TX 

  image.png.4f15ae5144722103242556b2db6d1033.pngSIM 3W 14º | Fujikura Atmos Black Tour Spec 9TX

image.png.bce9eebd9a20266703b359d88959bbcb.pngSIM2 5W 18º | Fujikura Ventus Black 10X
Titleist logo | Logo gallery, Golf birthday party, Logo designU500 2i | Fujikura Ventus HB Black 10TX
Titleist logo | Logo gallery, Golf birthday party, Logo design T100 4-PW | Dynamic Gold X7
Vokey Design Vector Logo | Free Download - (.SVG   .PNG) format - VTLogo.com SM6 52* SM8 56* SM8 60* | Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100
SIK Golf Partners with GolfPlus to Host Entry Level Professional Events!  DW | BGT Stability Tour

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Tsmithjr9 said:

I think the easiest way is to slow down the fairways. When watching the US Open at Winged Foot the announcers were taking about the field averaging 40 yards of roll if they hit the fairway. That's ridiculous. Or do what Nicklaus says and roll the ball back, not the clubs.

Take Dead Aim
 

Agree.  40 yards of roll on top of their crazy carry numbers is too much frosting IMHO.  We amateurs rarely see that amount of roll on normal flighted drives and conditioned courses.  I'll bet I average just 5-10 yards on most drives.  Raising the deck height on the Toro's costs nothing and should be tested before jumping into equipment changes.  I doubt this alone will meet their specific distances target (and I'm not really sure what that is quite frankly), but it and a few other, less contentious options, seem worth a try. 

Ultimately this simply shifts the average distances of the tour players down to "fit the courses" a bit better but the long hitters will still be long and have the advantage of reaching for a more accurate arrow for their second shots. 

:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

:EVNROLL: ER5v Putter  (Evnroll ER5v Official Review)

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, LICC said:

Can't you say the same thing about yourself? I'm providing examples and data. I'm happy to change my mind if you have other good examples or data that support a different conclusion.

I am actually open to changes.  You see a problem with golf.   Ignoring how you get there,  explain to me what you think professional golf should look like and how do you future proof golf to keep the problem from happening again?  

If you say scale back distances by 10%, how keep players from figuring out how to hit it their old distances?

If you don't want players to be hitting wedges into greens,  what club is acceptable to hit into a green?

Are you willing to okay with changing course conditions to slow down greens to be able to hold those longer irons? 

What does the product look like?

Does it apply to all professional levels, men's tours only, elite amateur competitions, tour qualifying events (not monday qualifiers but US Open qualifier)?

Do the changes impact the product so significantly that they lose viewership?

  • Like 5

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 5-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  logo-horizontal-black.svg Directed Force 2.1

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787, :seemore-small: mFGP2

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Tsmithjr9 said:

I think the easiest way is to slow down the fairways

Do you think that the USGA or R&A regulate how courses are maintained, or set up for tournaments?  Sure, longer fairway grass will decrease driving distance, but that can not be regulated by the Ruling Bodies.  And as long as the PGA Tour is selling distance, they're not going to slow the fairways either.

  • Like 1

:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I am actually open to changes.  You see a problem with golf.   Ignoring how you get there,  explain to me what you think professional golf should look like and how do you future proof golf to keep the problem from happening again?  

If you say scale back distances by 10%, how keep players from figuring out how to hit it their old distances?

If you don't want players to be hitting wedges into greens,  what club is acceptable to hit into a green?

Are you willing to okay with changing course conditions to slow down greens to be able to hold those longer irons? 

What does the product look like?

Does it apply to all professional levels, men's tours only, elite amateur competitions, tour qualifying events (not monday qualifiers but US Open qualifier)?

Do the changes impact the product so significantly that they lose viewership?

This isn't that hard.

If you bifurcate the equipment to get lower averages, the players won't just "figure out" how to hit 10% farther again. Human physics doesn't work like that.

The club to hit into a green depends on how the hole is designed. A hole designed as a long par-4 should have the large majority of players hitting longer irons in.

I'm not a fan of flatter, super-fast greens. But the green speed needs to match the green contours and hole designs. I would prefer more contour and less speed, but each course and set-up is different. The US Open should be set up to be more difficult than a regular Tour event.

What product?

If bifurcation occurs, I would prefer to see it at all professional levels, NCAA, and USGA events.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...