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3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 


So the one year gain for Bryson wasn’t relate to equipment. It was related to fitness and/or swing changes.

However it is accomplished, the simple fact is you personally don’t want to look at the driver stats chart and see players over 300 yards and because that wasn’t the norm it is because of changes to the ball and clubs.

Our point is that you can scale equipment back to temporarily make the average some number but players like Bryson will find ways to increase distance because golf strategy says to score better hit the ball farther. We have seen videos of Finau, DJ, and Rory getting significantly more distance with no equipment changes.

Again however the gains were achieved and no matter how much data is shown, the simple fact is that you (and others) don’t like it and you will show stats that support you claim and dismiss the opposite data as freakish, marketing, one off, and not real. It is impossible to separate equipment, fitness, and swing improvements to determine the amount of impact. Equipment becomes the easy focal point because you can’t tell players not to work on fitness and not to work on improving their swing.

 

And this is where we disagree. Players today will not take equipment from 1995 and hit the distances they do today. No matter what weights they lift or swing changes they make, it wouldn't happen. Maybe they can squeeze 5 more yards, maybe. The predominant cause of the distance increases has been equipment advances, so that if equipment is modified for Tour events to scale back the distance to 2000 levels, players won't be supercharging back up to the max distances again just by weight training or swing changes.

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2 minutes ago, LICC said:

And this is where we disagree. Players today will not take equipment from 1995 and hit the distances they do today. No matter what weights they lift or swing changes they make, it wouldn't happen. Maybe they can squeeze 5 more yards, maybe. The predominant cause of the distance increases has been equipment advances, so that if equipment is modified for Tour events to scale back the distance to 2000 levels, players won't be supercharging back up to the max distances again just by weight training or swing changes.

So the fast swingers get even more of an advantage.  Alienate the slower guys further.  Just because boo hoo an elite tour player drove a Par 4 at my old snobby elite private country club

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And this is where we disagree. Players today will not take equipment from 1995 and hit the distances they do today. No matter what weights they lift or swing changes they make, it wouldn't happen. Maybe they can squeeze 5 more yards, maybe. The predominant cause of the distance increases has been equipment advances, so that if equipment is modified for Tour events to scale back the distance to 2000 levels, players won't be supercharging back up to the max distances again just by weight training or swing changes.

Show me real examples and proof that it won’t happen. Not a marketing video where we see if someone can do something. I want to see people that have been playing equipment for that era made to today’s manufacturing tolerances.
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5 minutes ago, jlukes said:

He used a modern ball, so take 10-15 yards off, and that's about the same as Jack would drive it in his prime, and about 30-40 yards shorter than DJ can drive it with modern equipment.

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8 minutes ago, LICC said:

He used a modern ball, so take 10-15 yards off, and that's about the same as Jack would drive it in his prime, and about 30-40 yards shorter than DJ can drive it with modern equipment.

Great - but that isn't the argument the USGA is making.  They have this BS narrative about putting skill back into the game.  DJ is still going to drive the ball relatively further than the field.  Same with Bryson, Rory, etc.

Equipment rollback doesn't FIX anything in terms of competitive balance or certain skills mattering more.  All it does is make a bunch of rich old people feel better about the exclusive golf courses they belong to

As Rory said yesterday: "It reeks of self-importance"

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3 minutes ago, jlukes said:

Great - but that isn't the argument the USGA is making.  They have this BS narrative about putting skill back into the game.  DJ is still going to drive the ball relatively further than the field.  Same with Bryson, Rory, etc.

Equipment rollback doesn't FIX anything in terms of competitive balance or certain skills mattering more.  All it does is make a bunch of rich old people feel better about the exclusive golf courses they belong to

Tour golf has always had those who could hit longer distances than others. The argument is that with the state of equipment today, most of the Tour doesn't have to play the courses strategically anymore, and the advantage for long hitters is even more extreme now.

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6 minutes ago, LICC said:

Tour golf has always had those who could hit longer distances than others. The argument is that with the state of equipment today, most of the Tour doesn't have to play the courses strategically anymore, and the advantage for long hitters is even more extreme now.

Being long is a strategy.  Being closer to the hole after your drive makes it easier to hit your approach shots closer, which makes it easier to get down in less putts.  No amount of roll back will change that.  Just because strokes gained didn't exist in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s doesn't meant that driving the ball wasn't the most important component of golf back then either.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-jack-nicklaus-in-his-prime-would-dominate-modern-day-golf-too

Quote

“He rarely had to take anything out of his golf bag but his driver, wedge, putter and towel. …"

That quote is about Jack Nicklaus and the 1963 PGA Championship...

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Tour golf has always had those who could hit longer distances than others. The argument is that with the state of equipment today, most of the Tour doesn't have to play the courses strategically anymore, and the advantage for long hitters is even more extreme now.

And at the end of the day so what?
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1 minute ago, jlukes said:

Being long is a strategy.  Being closer to the hole after your drive makes it easier to hit your approach shots closer, which makes it easier to get down in less putts.  No amount of roll back will change that.  Just because strokes gained didn't exist in the 70s, 80s and 90s doesn't meant that driving the ball wasn't the most important component of golf back then either.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-jack-nicklaus-in-his-prime-would-dominate-modern-day-golf-too

 

Being long relative to others is a skill. Jack's length was a big advantage. Today, 20+ guys on Tour can overpower a normal Tour course with distance.

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https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-jack-nicklaus-in-his-prime-would-dominate-modern-day-golf-too

"Clearly, Nicklaus had a physical and length advantage over his competitors. But just how long would he have been with today’s equipment and technology? If you take Lee Trevino for his word: freakin’ far. “If Jack in his prime could have played the clubs and balls these guys are playing today, he would have hit that sumbitch 400 yards,” Trevino told Golf Digest in 2010, with characteristic color. “I’m dead serious.”

A search for a more scientific answer is hamstrung by a lack of data. There was no ShotLink in the 1960s or ’70s, and the first year the PGA Tour kept driving distance as an official stat was 1980. Luckily for us (and somewhat randomly) IBM did, for whatever reason, decide to measure driving distances for 11 tournaments in 1967, when Nicklaus was 27 and in his physical prime. The results, as uncovered by our Mike Johnson: Nicklaus averaged 276 yards, the longest on the PGA Tour. He was 4.5 percent longer than the average distance of 260.2. Extrapolate that 4.5 percent advantage to the 2018-’19 season, when the average was roughly 293.8 yards, and a player with Nicklaus’ advantage would have averaged 307 yards.

But there’s another relevant data point here, and it paints a slightly different picture. Nicklaus was 2.15 percent longer than the rest of the top 10, meaning there was a bit of a gap between he and the next-longest players. If we translate that advantage to last season, he’d have averaged 318.71 yards, which would have led the tour. So if we average those two figures—307 yards and 318.71 yards—we get 312.9 yards. That would have ranked fourth on tour last season, ahead of bombers like Dustin Johnson, Brooks Koepka, Tony Finau, Gary Woodland and so many more."

driving-distance-graphic-jack-80th.jpg

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9 minutes ago, LICC said:

Being long relative to others is a skill. Jack's length was a big advantage. Today, 20+ guys on Tour can overpower a normal Tour course with distance.

Yup, and those 20+ guys will further dominate the tour if the equipment is rolled back and the rest of the field loses distance too.  Again, the USGA tries to claim that this is about making other skills more important and determining outcome, but it is full of crap.

They are trying to protect old money courses

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6 minutes ago, cnosil said:


And at the end of the day so what?

So it is an inferior product to view as a golf fan who would like to see Tour players make strategic risk reward decisions, would like to see the variety of shots, and for course design be relevant.

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

Bad analogy. They added the three-point line when the game was being dominated too much by big men, and changed the game.

stick to golf...

https://www.usab.com/youth/news/2011/06/the-history-of-the-3-pointer.aspx

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2 minutes ago, jlukes said:

Yup, and those 20+ guys will further dominate the tour if the equipment is rolled back and the rest of the field loses distance too.  Again, the USGA tries to claim that this is about making other skills more important and determining outcome, but it is full of crap.

They are trying to protect old money courses

Those 20+ wouldn't dominate as much if they don't have the other skills that would be required and come into play with shorter distances overall.

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2 minutes ago, LICC said:

Those 20+ wouldn't dominate as much if they don't have the other skills that would be required and come into play with shorter distances overall.

Ok you clearly don't understand strokes gained so I am done with this conversation. 

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5 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

Happy to correct you again:

It was also popularized by the American Basketball Association (ABA), which introduced it in its inaugural 1967–68 season.[6][7] ABA commissioner George Mikan stated that the three-pointer "would give the smaller player a chance to score and open up the defense to make the game more enjoyable for the fans".

3 minutes ago, jlukes said:

Ok you clearly don't understand strokes gained so I am done with this conversation. 

You clearly don't know how to correctly apply strokes gained to this analysis.

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So it is an inferior product to view as a golf fan who would like to see Tour players make strategic risk reward decisions, would like to see the variety of shots, and for course design be relevant.

In your opinion an inferior product.

Even with rollback players wouldn’t make the risk/reward decisions that you are hoping to see. Today’s player bases the decisions on math and the foundations of strokes gained. Tournament golf is not played with emotional decisions and risk/reward strategy.

If you want to see courses player with longer clubs into the greens watch the LPGA. I love watching the LPGA as they are amazing players and skillful with the longer clubs.
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2 minutes ago, cnosil said:


In your opinion an inferior product.

Even with rollback players wouldn’t make the risk/reward decisions that you are hoping to see. Today’s player bases the decisions on math and the foundations of strokes gained. Tournament golf is not played with emotional decisions and risk/reward strategy.

If you want to see courses player with longer clubs into the greens watch the LPGA. I love watching the LPGA as they are amazing players and skillful with the longer clubs.

The math and strokes gained analysis would change with a distance rollback. And with those changes, players would have to consider more strategic risk-reward decisions and have to play more types of shots.

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