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Planned 2030 Golf Ball Rollback


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584 members have voted

  1. 1. Are you in favor of the rollback?

    • Yes
      81
    • No
      400
    • Don't Care
      103
  2. 2. Do you watch or care about the PGA Tour and other professional Tours?

    • Yes
      529
    • No
      21
    • Don't Care
      34
  3. 3. Do you wish there was a Tour Only golf ball?

    • Yes
      200
    • No
      237
    • Don't Care
      147
  4. 4. Do you want to play all the same equipment like the pros play?

    • Yes
      215
    • No
      143
    • Don't Care
      226
  5. 5. Do you feel your game will be dramatically effected by the rollback in 2030?

    • Yes
      230
    • No
      240
    • Don't know
      114
  6. 6. Will loosing any distance take away significant enjoyment in golfing for you?

    • Yes
      300
    • No
      158
    • Probably not
      126
  7. 7. Would you quit golf because of the rollback?

    • Yes
      25
    • No
      559
  8. 8. Would you prefer bifurcation?

    • Yes
      268
    • No
      202
    • Don't Care
      114
  9. 9. Is this all too early and we need to wait and see what more will happen over the next few years?

    • Definitely
      261
    • No, this needs to be addressed now
      262
    • Don't care
      61

This poll is closed to new votes


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6 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Iirc it wasn’t so much cancel culture but rather your constant blocking of people who proved your take wrong in numerous occasions, then flagging their posts when they disagreed with you and your constant harping on the subjects with the same rhetoric in multiple threads. At least from what my memory recalls from surfing the site 

 

I would say you definitely do not recall correctly. What is this proof of which you speak?

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I came to read about Bifurcation and instead just witnessed one person argue with everyone in here. I am no longer interested in this topic. 

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Either I saw an interview or read an article. But in any case I think it was Greg Norman. He said the easiest way to address this issue was to restrict the tee height. Then they proceeded to show how they are now using longer tees to hit up on the ball much more than in the past. They showed Bryson's ball on the tee and his swing path and compared it to a shorter tee and the path it needs to take.
Could this help? I don't know, but I thought it was a very different approach to the distance issue.     
I think the easiest way is to slow down the fairways. When watching the US Open at Winged Foot the announcers were taking about the field averaging 40 yards of roll if they hit the fairway. That's ridiculous. Or do what Nicklaus says and roll the ball back, not the clubs.

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This topic really is a mind-boggling one. Decades of research and studies and data, yet opinions always seem to prevail. To me it’s not a debate, the research clearly shows what’s happening and the USGA and R&A choose to not follow it. It’s been a year since they released their own report detailing everything related to the “distance problem” and nothing has changed. They clearly have no idea what they’re doing and feel pressure to “do something”.

Every bit of information I have seen shows that equipment limitation(club or ball) will create a disproportionate advantage to long hitters. To me, that’s just the laws of physics. Length comes from speed, no matter what equipment is used.


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Eh. This is silliness from a salesman. I'm talking about the Tour, and I'm not putting stock into some indoor simulator readings.
A few years ago a number of Tour pros, the big hitters, (I believe Tony Finau and Jason Kokrak among them) hit old Ben Hogan clubs on a range, with modern balls. IIRC, they averaged 260-270 with the driver. And then after that at a tournament at Cherry Hills, a number of Tour pros, including Rory McIlroy, hit the old driver and balls off the first tee to recreate Arnold Palmer driving the green at the 1960 US Open. No one came close. Rory did the best reaching the bunker at the front of the green.

My counter is that you are an amateur golfer that has no clue what a pro could do if given a chance to play the old equipment. You site a staged recreation that was designed to make Arnold Palmer look good.

I still say that technology has taught players how to better utilize the equipment in their hands.

Equipment changes will create the same separation between golfers. Scores will not change. But some people will be happy that the players aren’t hitting wedges.

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4 hours ago, LICC said:

.

I analogize it to throwing a baseball. The fast-twitch muscles used for that type of athletic movement do not get much enhanced by weight training. Someone may get slightly marginal increases, but no one is going from throwing an 85mph fastball to a 95mph fastball by lifting weights.

this is absolutely and completely untrue 

as someone who’s been on both sides of the athlete/trainer relationship, i can tell you first hand that increased strength from weight training, especially explosive speed/strength compound movements will absolutely translate to increases in velocity, running speed, bat speed, club head speed, or whatever metric you choose to evaluate for your given sport. 

i’m not gonna weigh in on the bifurcation issue, i’m just here bc what you said above is a flagrant lie. 

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36 minutes ago, cnosil said:


My counter is that you are an amateur golfer that has no clue what a pro could do if given a chance to play the old equipment. You site a staged recreation that was designed to make Arnold Palmer look good.

I still say that technology has taught players how to better utilize the equipment in their hands.

Equipment changes will create the same separation between golfers. Scores will not change. But some people will be happy that the players aren’t hitting wedges.

We have more than a clue. We have Tour pros who hit the old equipment to compare. Not just at Cherry Hills (which I don't agree with discounting because you think the pros for some reason were trying to not hit it far so Arnold Palmer could look good), but at a range with measured readings. We also have the Champions Tour stats which show players in their late 50s- early 60s hitting it 20-30 yards farther than they did in their 20s. As to being taught how to swing better, it's not like players a few decades ago didn't know how to hit up on the ball.

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16 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

this is absolutely and completely untrue 

as someone who’s been on both sides of the athlete/trainer relationship, i can tell you first hand that increased strength from weight training, especially explosive speed/strength compound movements will absolutely translate to increases in velocity, running speed, bat speed, club head speed, or whatever metric you choose to evaluate for your given sport. 

i’m not gonna weigh in on the bifurcation issue, i’m just here bc what you said above is a flagrant lie. 

Do you have any examples of a MLB pitcher who added more than 3mph on his fastball from weight training compared to prior to weight training (non-steroids)?

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6 minutes ago, LICC said:

Do you have any examples of a MLB pitcher who added more than 3mph on his fastball from weight training compared to prior to weight training (non-steroids)?

here’s one...

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3 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

here’s one...

54C294FD-1F66-410F-B93A-710670DD0162.png

From the same article, deGrom himself does not attribute this to weight training:

So, how is deGrom doing this? All it took was a little extra time off and a little more tinkering, according to the man himself.

“This [coronavirus] break -- and even in spring, just working on my delivery -- I actually feel like it’s coming out with less effort than in years past,” deGrom told MLB.com’s Anthony DiComo on Monday. “I think just with that time off, I continued to work on my delivery, and feel like everything’s kind of in line where I want it to be.”

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We have more than a clue. We have Tour pros who hit the old equipment to compare. Not just at Cherry Hills (which I don't agree with discounting because you think the pros for some reason were trying to not hit it far so Arnold Palmer could look good), but at a range with measured readings. We also have the Champions Tour stats which show players in their late 50s- early 60s hitting it 20-30 yards farther than they did in their 20s. As to being taught how to swing better, it's not like players a few decades ago didn't know how to hit up on the ball.

Obviously you have your thoughts and there is no one that can provide you any information that will change your mind and you will only look at evidence that supports your mindset.

You have established your bias and it just isn’t worth discussing this anymore with you.

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3 minutes ago, cnosil said:


Obviously you have your thoughts and there is no one that can provide you any information that will change your mind and you will only look at evidence that supports your mindset.

You have established your bias and it just isn’t worth discussing this anymore with you.

Can't you say the same thing about yourself? I'm providing examples and data. I'm happy to change my mind if you have other good examples or data that support a different conclusion.

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Just now, LICC said:

From the same article, deGrom himself does not attribute this to weight training:

So, how is deGrom doing this? All it took was a little extra time off and a little more tinkering, according to the man himself.

“This [coronavirus] break -- and even in spring, just working on my delivery -- I actually feel like it’s coming out with less effort than in years past,” deGrom told MLB.com’s Anthony DiComo on Monday. “I think just with that time off, I continued to work on my delivery, and feel like everything’s kind of in line where I want it to be.”

if you think it has 0 to do with lifting weights then i’ve got a bridge to sell you. 

here’s an article outlining how hard he and syndergaard train 

https://www.mensjournal.com/sports/ny-mets-pitchers-noah-syndergaard-and-jacob-degrom-reveal-their-training-secrets-mlb/

also, degrom is up about 20 lbs from when he debuted. 

furthermore, your question as written is pretty un-answerable. there are few MLB players who give you a full breakdown of their training during and in the offseason to be able to do a direct comparison of MPH to training programs. 

you could always look at the startling increase in league-wide velocity, along with the number of guys who come out of college throwing 92-93 and get to the big leagues throwing 96-97. 

or you could continue to believe that you and you alone are right. 

i know which option i’ve got $20 on. 

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1 minute ago, Chip Strokes said:

if you think it has 0 to do with lifting weights then i’ve got a bridge to sell you. 

here’s an article outlining how hard he and syndergaard train 

https://www.mensjournal.com/sports/ny-mets-pitchers-noah-syndergaard-and-jacob-degrom-reveal-their-training-secrets-mlb/

also, degrom is up about 20 lbs from when he debuted. 

furthermore, your question as written is pretty un-answerable. there are few MLB players who give you a full breakdown of their training during and in the offseason to be able to do a direct comparison of MPH to training programs. 

you could always look at the startling increase in league-wide velocity, along with the number of guys who come out of college throwing 92-93 and get to the big leagues throwing 96-97. 

or you could continue to believe that you and you alone are right. 

i know which option i’ve got $20 on. 

Where are you getting his weight from? The NY Times in 2018: " For the past several years, deGrom weighed 183 pounds. His metabolism has apparently been impervious to all the chicken fingers, fries and fast food he loves, particularly Chick-fil-A and McDonald's, where he typically orders a Big Mac meal with large fries, a large Mountain Dew and two double cheeseburgers." This year he is listed at 180 pounds.

So you have zero examples to support your claim. Maybe you should have good information to back your position before you call someone a liar and thus present yourself in such a poor manner.

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42 minutes ago, LICC said:

 

So you have zero examples to support your claim. Maybe you should have good information to back your position before you call someone a liar and thus present yourself in such a poor manner.

have a great day!

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Rory's thoughts...



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6 hours ago, Tsmithjr9 said:

I think the easiest way is to slow down the fairways. When watching the US Open at Winged Foot the announcers were taking about the field averaging 40 yards of roll if they hit the fairway. That's ridiculous. Or do what Nicklaus says and roll the ball back, not the clubs.

Take Dead Aim
 

Agree.  40 yards of roll on top of their crazy carry numbers is too much frosting IMHO.  We amateurs rarely see that amount of roll on normal flighted drives and conditioned courses.  I'll bet I average just 5-10 yards on most drives.  Raising the deck height on the Toro's costs nothing and should be tested before jumping into equipment changes.  I doubt this alone will meet their specific distances target (and I'm not really sure what that is quite frankly), but it and a few other, less contentious options, seem worth a try. 

Ultimately this simply shifts the average distances of the tour players down to "fit the courses" a bit better but the long hitters will still be long and have the advantage of reaching for a more accurate arrow for their second shots. 

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3 hours ago, LICC said:

Can't you say the same thing about yourself? I'm providing examples and data. I'm happy to change my mind if you have other good examples or data that support a different conclusion.

I am actually open to changes.  You see a problem with golf.   Ignoring how you get there,  explain to me what you think professional golf should look like and how do you future proof golf to keep the problem from happening again?  

If you say scale back distances by 10%, how keep players from figuring out how to hit it their old distances?

If you don't want players to be hitting wedges into greens,  what club is acceptable to hit into a green?

Are you willing to okay with changing course conditions to slow down greens to be able to hold those longer irons? 

What does the product look like?

Does it apply to all professional levels, men's tours only, elite amateur competitions, tour qualifying events (not monday qualifiers but US Open qualifier)?

Do the changes impact the product so significantly that they lose viewership?

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7 hours ago, Tsmithjr9 said:

I think the easiest way is to slow down the fairways

Do you think that the USGA or R&A regulate how courses are maintained, or set up for tournaments?  Sure, longer fairway grass will decrease driving distance, but that can not be regulated by the Ruling Bodies.  And as long as the PGA Tour is selling distance, they're not going to slow the fairways either.

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22 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I am actually open to changes.  You see a problem with golf.   Ignoring how you get there,  explain to me what you think professional golf should look like and how do you future proof golf to keep the problem from happening again?  

If you say scale back distances by 10%, how keep players from figuring out how to hit it their old distances?

If you don't want players to be hitting wedges into greens,  what club is acceptable to hit into a green?

Are you willing to okay with changing course conditions to slow down greens to be able to hold those longer irons? 

What does the product look like?

Does it apply to all professional levels, men's tours only, elite amateur competitions, tour qualifying events (not monday qualifiers but US Open qualifier)?

Do the changes impact the product so significantly that they lose viewership?

This isn't that hard.

If you bifurcate the equipment to get lower averages, the players won't just "figure out" how to hit 10% farther again. Human physics doesn't work like that.

The club to hit into a green depends on how the hole is designed. A hole designed as a long par-4 should have the large majority of players hitting longer irons in.

I'm not a fan of flatter, super-fast greens. But the green speed needs to match the green contours and hole designs. I would prefer more contour and less speed, but each course and set-up is different. The US Open should be set up to be more difficult than a regular Tour event.

What product?

If bifurcation occurs, I would prefer to see it at all professional levels, NCAA, and USGA events.

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Rory's thoughts...





Rory is a great spokesman for the game and his voice carries a bit of weight so hearing this from him makes it that much better. Hits the nail on the head and says what most of us are thinking! You can tell it was on his mind and he means what he’s saying. Good stuff!
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1 hour ago, cnosil said:

What do you see the average being?  250 yards? How do you limit the equipment to maintain that average over time.  I personally think you are underestimating how people adapt to change to become more efficient

Are you dictating how a hole must be played?  Can't hit over trees?  what is a longer iron?  9 iron instead of wedge,  8 iron instead of wedge? 5 iron instead of wedge?  Clubs have different lofts so the number is irrelevant.  I could make a 20* wedge and say I am hitting wedge into a green.  How long are courses,  what is average hole length?  I assume with the reduced club distances come reduced course distances so you don't lose the below average players. Because if you lose the below average distance golfer,  the average increases.  

It isn't about the contours of the green but the ability to hold the ball when approaching with longer clubs.   How do you control how courses are setup each week?  Do we penalize the course if they make it fast and there is lots of rollout?   

Professional golf is a product.  There are advertising dollars and TV deals that are worth millions of dollars.  The purses are part of the sponsorship deals.  Players make money from endorsements.   If there isn't a market for professional golf based on the changes,  it goes away.  

On page one you said the problem is with the tour,  now we are extending it down to amateur events.  Lets look at NCAA golf,  how do you think DIII and NAIA scoring will fair with your new approach.  Here are their mens scoring ranges for reference

  • NCAA Division 3 golf scores: 72 to low 80s
  • NAIA golf scores: low 70s to high 80s

I don't think anyone will accuse them of hitting the ball too far or that courses are obsolete for their game. 

Fundamentally you are not doing bifurcation but pushing the "distance problem" down to the all golfers that may want to play competitive golf.  

And at the end of the day, what have you accomplished?  Have you made the product better?  Have you satisfied the purist that believes that courses aren't being played the way they were designed?  Have you brought more people to the game?  Have you changed scoring?   

Based on your very limited description,  I don't think you have "fixed" anything but then again I don't know what you are trying to fix other than you think players hit the ball too far. 

In 2000, only two players averaged over 290 yard drives. John Daly at 301 and Tiger at 298. The average drive was 272. It was also a time of the greatest boom in the interest in golf we had seen in decades. 
 

You really don’t know the difference between a wedge, a short iron, and a long iron?

Courses can generally be the same lengths they are now. Maybe some give or take in setup if necessary. Same with green speeds- should vary based on course design and setup. 
 

If it would be better for the NCAA to not bifurcate then fine. That can be figured out. But I would include it. 
 

These really aren’t complicated issues. 
 

The problem is that the Tour game has been degraded by the massive distance gains from equipment advances. I detailed how earlier. It’s still good to watch for golf fans, but it could be better. 

Edited by LICC
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1 hour ago, LICC said:

In 2000, only two players averaged over 290 yard drives. John Daly at 301 and Tiger at 298. The average drive was 272. It was also a time of the greatest boom in the interest in golf we had seen in decades. 
 

You really don’t know the difference between a wedge, a short iron, and a long iron?

Courses can generally be the same lengths they are now. Maybe some give or take in setup if necessary. Same with green speeds- should vary based on course design and setup. 
 

If it would be better for the NCAA to not bifurcate then fine. That can be figured out. But I would include it. 
 

These really aren’t complicated issues. 
 

The problem is that the Tour game has been degraded by the massive distance gains from equipment advances. I detailed how earlier. It’s still good to watch for golf fans, but it could be better. 

The boom was because of Tiger Woods.  Also,  if equipment was such a limitation,  why were long drive competitors able to do this:

  • 1990 – Frank Miller, 328 yards
  • 1991 – Art Sellinger, 326 yards
  • 1992 – Monte Scheinblum 329 yards
  • 1993 – Brian Pavlet, 336 yards
  • 1994 – Darryl Anderson, 345 yards
  • 1995 – Sean Fister, 362 yards
  • 1996 – Jason Zuback (🇨🇦Canada) 351 yards
  • 1997 – Jason Zuback (🇨🇦Canada) 412 yards
  • 1998 – Jason Zuback (🇨🇦Canada) 361 yards
  • 1999 – Jason Zuback (🇨🇦Canada) 376 yards
  • 2000 – Viktor Johansson (🇸🇪Sweden) 315 yards

Todays players would have the ability to accomplish those same distances if they were using clubs from the 90s because they swing faster than tour players from the 90s.  That is not an equipment thing but a physical ability thing.  

I do know the difference; you said longer, not a category.  A GW is longer than a SW; so a 1 club "reduction" is all you are looking for?

In your opinion they aren't complicated issues.  

In your opinion the Tour game has been degraded.  

Your last statement is really your problem statement and what you think needs to be fixed:  " The problem is that the Tour game has been degraded by the massive distance gains from equipment advances. I detailed how earlier. It’s still good to watch for golf fans, but it could be better."

I don't see the tour game as being degraded by massive distance gains.  How those gain were achieved is not important because people were able to exceed 400 yards with 90s equipment.   But I personally enjoy the state of the game and hope it doesn't change. 

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Kyle Berkshire and Bryson got faster by workout out and training. 
 

A simple test is to get on a training regiment that includes lifting weights with some level of progressive overload to build strength and some hypertrophy to help build muscle. Do that for a extended period of time and see if you don’t gain clubhead and/or ball speed. 
 

Really doesn’t even need to be a workout program or a change to one. There’s an entire thread on mgs for the superspeed training system that shows average golfers gaining speed just from using that system and superspeed themselves have even more data on speed increases.

 

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Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

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Here’s an article on Molinari and his distance gain, which was changing his swing approach and also working out. A couple things to takeaway IMO 1) it took awhile with the swing 2) his coach’s comment about physique and not technique being the key to power

 “Power doesn’t come from technique, it comes from physique,” he says. “The goal was to get him as strong as possible to create more power in his swing. But we had to make sure his technique didn’t block that newfound energy from being utilized.”

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-francesco-molinari-picked-up-20-yards-off-the-tee-and-still-hits-it-straight

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Quit feeding the troll folks, or he/she will never go away...forum 101.

“Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”

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12 hours ago, cnosil said:

Based on your very limited description,  I don't think you have "fixed" anything but then again I don't know what you are trying to fix other than you think players hit the ball too far. 

The more I read about this topic, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that neither the R&A or USGA know what they are trying to fix 🤨.  

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2 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

The more I read about this topic, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that neither the R&A or USGA know what they are trying to fix 🤨.  

They are trying to fix the bug money developers and owners issue of property. These big names want to have a place that can host a tournament but they need more property because they think there’s a tour distance issue and length is the only way to make a course tough instead of looking at layout to challenge the golfer. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Preach!

 

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

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