Jump to content
TESTERS WANTED! ×

Planned 2030 Golf Ball Rollback


PMookie

Forum Member Opinions  

584 members have voted

  1. 1. Are you in favor of the rollback?

    • Yes
      81
    • No
      400
    • Don't Care
      103
  2. 2. Do you watch or care about the PGA Tour and other professional Tours?

    • Yes
      529
    • No
      21
    • Don't Care
      34
  3. 3. Do you wish there was a Tour Only golf ball?

    • Yes
      200
    • No
      237
    • Don't Care
      147
  4. 4. Do you want to play all the same equipment like the pros play?

    • Yes
      215
    • No
      143
    • Don't Care
      226
  5. 5. Do you feel your game will be dramatically effected by the rollback in 2030?

    • Yes
      230
    • No
      240
    • Don't know
      114
  6. 6. Will loosing any distance take away significant enjoyment in golfing for you?

    • Yes
      300
    • No
      158
    • Probably not
      126
  7. 7. Would you quit golf because of the rollback?

    • Yes
      25
    • No
      559
  8. 8. Would you prefer bifurcation?

    • Yes
      268
    • No
      202
    • Don't Care
      114
  9. 9. Is this all too early and we need to wait and see what more will happen over the next few years?

    • Definitely
      261
    • No, this needs to be addressed now
      262
    • Don't care
      61

This poll is closed to new votes


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, storm319 said:

Bryson?! He went from averaging 291 to 310 (lead the tour that year) over a single off season by adding nearly 50 lbs and bulking up. I wonder what equipment innovation that happened in 2020 that saw only him add 20 yards to his average? Hmmmm

BTW, all of those examples of having current pros hit a handful of shots with old equipment vs past results from HOF golfers who were tuned in with that equipment is not a realistic comparison. Give the new guys time to adapt and the results will be very different. 

Like it was mentioned by a mod, this debate has been hashed out on here and wrx with him. It’s not worth the energy. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Albatrossx3 said:

If you have a greens keeping background, you would know how silly your ideas are.  Takes weeks to grow out the rough, more water, and chemicals,  Making a course unplayable for anyone else, all to get to one week a year.   Making smaller greens is not about just letting the edges grow in bunkers need moved etc.  The issue is not today, but 5 or 10 years from now, when there may be players who can fly it 400, what do you do when players are hitting it that far and chipping to anything less than 500 yds as a par 4, you fix the ball then?   The ball should have been fixed decades ago, the USGA changed the swing speed but did little to fix the overall distance standard that was the new limit..   

I dont believe in the end the manufactures will go for this, no ball no rule, but I do believe the USGA/RA are serious about protecting the game, keeping it sustainable and affordable, longer courses deeper rough are not sustainable solutions and not good for the game for the rest of us.  I think the push back from the MFC's will force them to reign it ALL legal balls, but come on what 20 hdcp will notice his or her 200yd bunt goes 10 yds shorter, most players dont hit it solid enough often enough to know.  Are you gonna quit or just move up a few yards  

ROLF you must think you are super special and the only person in the world that knows golf.   I completely get how greenkeeping works and course prep work for amateurs like yourself and professionals.  So what you are saying golf course architect like Stanley Thompson designs is stupid and had no idea how to design courses correct?  Because he used smaller greens with more undulations.  You don't have to narrow the entire golf course but just the landing areas from the tips and tee boxes the tour earmark to be used.  PS most greens are moved between 2.5 - 3 for tournaments.  If you let greens grown out in two weeks its will be long enough for a 1st cut or apron.  You don't have to narrow the greens around the bunkers, but growing it out will make a huge difference.  LOL so you are saying they are doing it to keep the golf courses sustainable and affordable, lets talk how much golf course architect charge for their designs, how much soil they move (very costly) but you should know this because you know everything about greenkeeping and construction of golf courses. Modern architect want to make it so long the normal amateur that cant hit the ball out of his shadow wants to play from the tips. Maybe if you want to be better take a lesson or two and learn how to play the game better.  Like certain people that ski can only go on certain slopes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, cnosil said:

This conformance is only require for competitions where the model local rule is invoked.  If the competition doesn’t invoke the MRL current balls are conforming and will remain conforming.  
 

it does add to the existing bifurcation because it is enforcing different rules at different levels.   Does your group invoke the one ball rule and the rule that prohibits distance measuring devices? 

Non conforming balls will be called cheater balls. EVERY major will impose the local rule. Every PGA premier Level 1 event will impose MLR. You can see it coming, otherwise why make the rule ?

Yes, I play one ball.

No, I don't use rangefinder or slope. 

No, I don't play winter rules or roll ball over and neither do my friends. 

We do take mulligan.

We won't do stroke distance on a unexpected lost ball.

And we won't play with cheater balls. 

Driver FW - Titleist 917

Irons 4 to 8 - Titleist T300 2° flat

Irons 9 to wedges - George Nicoll Royal musclebacks 70s vintage

Putter - Scotty Cameron Select blackout

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, TitleistMike said:

Non conforming balls will be called cheater balls. EVERY major will impose the local rule. Every PGA premier Level 1 event will impose MLR. You can see it coming, otherwise why make the rule ?

It’s not a rule yet and it’s only an MLR so it’s optional. There is a review and comment period that it has to go thru that’s why it’s not going to be impellers til 2026.

The PGA tour isn’t going to use it for some events and not others. The members aren’t going to go for that and having to change ball and equipment. Everytime they go out. Also whether the PGA tour chooses to use it will be based on what their members say aka the players on the tour.

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, silver & black said:

Why can't you hit the ball arrow straight with the current ball/s?

Exactly, I see tour pros who make a good living frequently 15 feet wide of their target with a wedge. That's unbelievable and unfair.  I rarely miss my driving target by 15 feet, much less a fairway 30 yards wide. If I miss my line and my window by more than 3 feet with a wedge it's a very poor shot for me. 

If I could play courses 6100 yards with 10 yard wide fairways, punitive rough, and small greens that would be an equalizer. We'd see who could win. Golf would be more like ballet. 

Settled clubs: Epon 50/8, 45/6, 40/5, 35/4, 30/4, 26/3 all with Zelos 8 stiff, 1/2 degree flat. Mizuno CLK Hybrid 20 degrees. Putter: 37" rife.h Hbore xl 2wood (the unicorn)--16 degrees, 420 cc? 

Not settled: 54/10 Vokey 

Not settle: 12 degree Mizuno stx 12* set to 11.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s not a rule yet and it’s only an MLR so it’s optional. There is a review and comment period that it has to go thru that’s why it’s not going to be impellers til 2026.

The PGA tour isn’t going to use it for some events and not others. The members aren’t going to go for that and having to change ball and equipment. Everytime they go out. Also whether the PGA tour chooses to use it will be based on what their members say aka the players on the tour.

Players have no say other than joining LIV.

Players do NOT run PGA. Laughable to think they do. The players council has ALWAYS been a smoke and mirrors exposition.

Back to the main point....it is coming. And because Players will not be able to sway back and forth, the new criteria will be the universal criteria as all PGA events apply the MLR.

Once in place, non conforming balls will be called cheater balls.

Driver FW - Titleist 917

Irons 4 to 8 - Titleist T300 2° flat

Irons 9 to wedges - George Nicoll Royal musclebacks 70s vintage

Putter - Scotty Cameron Select blackout

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, LICC said:

It would be within 2-3% probably. Strength training does little to increase distance on any given swing. The equipment is the predominant factor. There have been several examples of today's players trying older equipment, and they all basically hit the balls the same distance as players did back when the equipment was being used. You can also look at the Champions tour and how much massively farther those same players hit it now compared to 25-30 years ago. They don't gain physical strength and speed in their 50s compared to their 20s.

"Strength training does little to increase distance on any given swing."  Are you FLIPPIN kidding me?!?!?!  Please provide your background in personal training and sports physiology including all of the studies and tests you have coordinated, designed, observed or read.  Let me help you: 

"The results of this study demonstrate that power is significantly correlated with CHS in PGA professional golfers, confirming previously established relationships observed in amateur golfers (Lewis, Adam L.1; Ward, Nick2; Bishop, Chris3; Maloney, Sean4; Turner, Anthony N.3. Determinants of Club Head Speed in PGA Professional Golfers. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 30(8):p 2266-2270, August 2016. | DOI: 10.1519/JSC.0000000000001362).  

Oh here is one from 2020, "Eight Weeks of Strength and Power Training Improves Club Head Speed in Collegiate Golfers," (Oranchuk DJ, Mannerberg JM, Robinson TL, Nelson MC. Eight Weeks of Strength and Power Training Improves Club Head Speed in Collegiate Golfers. J Strength Cond Res. 2020 Aug;34(8):2205-2213. doi: 10.1519/JSC.0000000000002505. PMID: 29461422).

But it isn't just brute strength that results in distance, flexibility and the ability to create tempo is HUGE.  The ability to FEEL the swing apex and TRANSITION fluidly will generate more speed than some muscle head who can bench 650 trying to muscle a driver on the range.  It is the same reason why a 4'2" 92lb woman can toss a 360lb man across the mats like a rag doll.  But I digress.  

Equipment has ABSOLUTELY improved.  Ball speed off a metal head (or carbon fiber) driver is definitely hotter than off a persimmon wood head.  Lighter materials and shafts lead to increased club head speed.  But all of that aside I can still outdrive a couch potato with a Stealth 2, G425 or a Ti4 using my 1980s Wilson 1200GE woods or out distance comparative iron shots using my 1980s Titleist blades because of my level of fitness, which contributes to club head speed AND the ability to consistently generate that speed comfortably for a full round.  Kind of like an unfit guy still being able to run 4 second 40, but not being able to hold under 15 minutes for a full mile and a fit guy only being able to run a 6 second 40, but maintain under 6 minutes for the full mile or more.  Fitness = Performance.  Equipment only enhances fitness.  And if I had the flexibility I had before back surgery I'd blow it by you with a 4-year old's plastic kiddie club.

Need more examples of fitness over equipment?  From 1979 - 1985 Jack Nicklaus averaged from 264 to 269 yards off the tee.  What equipment advantage did he have over the other players???  NONE!  He played basketball, baseball and tennis in high school throughout his childhood and school years.  He had strength and athleticism that other players didn't at the time.  According to IBM recorded driving distance data at 11 PGA Tour events in 1968 the top 10 players averaged 270.2 yards, the average was 264.0 yards and Nicklaus led the Tour at 276.0 yards.   Fred Couples was a linebacker, he averaged 268 yards in 1982.  Davis Love III holds the second longest officially recorded drive in competitive play history, 476 yards at the 2004 Mercedes Championships (now the Hyundai ToC) at Kapalua. He drive was 39 yards short of the 515 yard record set by Mike Austin's in 1974.  1974!!!!!  NOT 2014, NOT 2024, 1974!  So, if the equipment is the problem why hasn't somebody beaten a record from 1974???  Sure, those guys would most likely be hitting the ball longer with today's equipment than they were then.  BUT, they were longer than the other guys and would STILL BE longer than the other guys.  So changing the equipment for everyone does NOTHING to bring the big guys down to our level.  If anything it handicaps the recreational player ever further because the advancements in technology that have led to improved clubbed speed, consistency of shaft flex and performance, improved ball speed and quality control benefit them; it doesn't penalize them.  And giving a beat up old Salt a bit of equipment to help him/her off-set all the wear and tear sure helps across the board, taking it away only penalizes all of us.  If they want to halt potential progress in distance to where it is, then do the testing using current balls and the new swing speed criteria and set the requirements right where the X-Y axes cross today.  That saves all of us recreational golfers from having to pay for manufacturers trying to figure out regression.  It saves all of us from having to return to the drawing board to figure out how far X, Y, and Z clubs are carrying and trying to figure out how to carry the pond on a 185 yard par 3.  It saves the problem of competitive amateurs having to figure out what ball they will be allowed to play at what tournaments and what the resultant club choices will have to, maybe, be.

I am going to try to put the ball factor to some level of rest by doing a "field test" tomorrow comparing my OLD 1980 model Titlest blades to my current P790 irons, 3 thru PW.  I'll post the comparative iron specs and results using current model range balls and a Swing Caddie SC300.

"Strength training does little to increase distance on any given swing."  You kill me dude. 

  • Driver - Ping G400 9°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 65 gr. 
  • FW - TM M3 3-wood 15°, Project-X HZRDUS Red 6.0 75 gr. mid-spin
  • Hybrid - TM M4 19°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 85 gr. HY 
  • Irons - TM P790, 3-PW, Oban CT-115, PXG 311 P Gen 6
  • Wedges - Mizuno T20 Ion blue 52/9 & 56/14, N.S. Pro Modus3 S-flex
  • Putter - Evnroll ER2 Garsen Max grip
  • Getting a grip - oversize Winn DryTacs and Bionic gloves
  • Ball - ProV1, AVX, Maxfli Tour, PXG
  • Bag(s)/cart - Vessel Player III Rovic RV1S and Alphard V2

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Subdiver1 said:

"Strength training does little to increase distance on any given swing."  Are you FLIPPIN kidding me?!?!?!  Please provide your background in personal training and sports physiology including all of the studies and tests you have coordinated, designed, observed or read.  Let me help you: 

"The results of this study demonstrate that power is significantly correlated with CHS in PGA professional golfers, confirming previously established relationships observed in amateur golfers (Lewis, Adam L.1; Ward, Nick2; Bishop, Chris3; Maloney, Sean4; Turner, Anthony N.3. Determinants of Club Head Speed in PGA Professional Golfers. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 30(8):p 2266-2270, August 2016. | DOI: 10.1519/JSC.0000000000001362).  

Oh here is one from 2020, "Eight Weeks of Strength and Power Training Improves Club Head Speed in Collegiate Golfers," (Oranchuk DJ, Mannerberg JM, Robinson TL, Nelson MC. Eight Weeks of Strength and Power Training Improves Club Head Speed in Collegiate Golfers. J Strength Cond Res. 2020 Aug;34(8):2205-2213. doi: 10.1519/JSC.0000000000002505. PMID: 29461422).

But it isn't just brute strength that results in distance, flexibility and the ability to create tempo is HUGE.  The ability to FEEL the swing apex and TRANSITION fluidly will generate more speed than some muscle head who can bench 650 trying to muscle a driver on the range.  It is the same reason why a 4'2" 92lb woman can toss a 360lb man across the mats like a rag doll.  But I digress.  

Equipment has ABSOLUTELY improved.  Ball speed off a metal head (or carbon fiber) driver is definitely hotter than off a persimmon wood head.  Lighter materials and shafts lead to increased club head speed.  But all of that aside I can still outdrive a couch potato with a Stealth 2, G425 or a Ti4 using my 1980s Wilson 1200GE woods or out distance comparative iron shots using my 1980s Titleist blades because of my level of fitness, which contributes to club head speed AND the ability to consistently generate that speed comfortably for a full round.  Kind of like an unfit guy still being able to run 4 second 40, but not being able to hold under 15 minutes for a full mile and a fit guy only being able to run a 6 second 40, but maintain under 6 minutes for the full mile or more.  Fitness = Performance.  Equipment only enhances fitness.  And if I had the flexibility I had before back surgery I'd blow it by you with a 4-year old's plastic kiddie club.

Need more examples of fitness over equipment?  From 1979 - 1985 Jack Nicklaus averaged from 264 to 269 yards off the tee.  What equipment advantage did he have over the other players???  NONE!  He played basketball, baseball and tennis in high school throughout his childhood and school years.  He had strength and athleticism that other players didn't at the time.  According to IBM recorded driving distance data at 11 PGA Tour events in 1968 the top 10 players averaged 270.2 yards, the average was 264.0 yards and Nicklaus led the Tour at 276.0 yards.   Fred Couples was a linebacker, he averaged 268 yards in 1982.  Davis Love III holds the second longest officially recorded drive in competitive play history, 476 yards at the 2004 Mercedes Championships (now the Hyundai ToC) at Kapalua. He drive was 39 yards short of the 515 yard record set by Mike Austin's in 1974.  1974!!!!!  NOT 2014, NOT 2024, 1974!  So, if the equipment is the problem why hasn't somebody beaten a record from 1974???  Sure, those guys would most likely be hitting the ball longer with today's equipment than they were then.  BUT, they were longer than the other guys and would STILL BE longer than the other guys.  So changing the equipment for everyone does NOTHING to bring the big guys down to our level.  If anything it handicaps the recreational player ever further because the advancements in technology that have led to improved clubbed speed, consistency of shaft flex and performance, improved ball speed and quality control benefit them; it doesn't penalize them.  And giving a beat up old Salt a bit of equipment to help him/her off-set all the wear and tear sure helps across the board, taking it away only penalizes all of us.  If they want to halt potential progress in distance to where it is, then do the testing using current balls and the new swing speed criteria and set the requirements right where the X-Y axes cross today.  That saves all of us recreational golfers from having to pay for manufacturers trying to figure out regression.  It saves all of us from having to return to the drawing board to figure out how far X, Y, and Z clubs are carrying and trying to figure out how to carry the pond on a 185 yard par 3.  It saves the problem of competitive amateurs having to figure out what ball they will be allowed to play at what tournaments and what the resultant club choices will have to, maybe, be.

I am going to try to put the ball factor to some level of rest by doing a "field test" tomorrow comparing my OLD 1980 model Titlest blades to my current P790 irons, 3 thru PW.  I'll post the comparative iron specs and results using current model range balls and a Swing Caddie SC300.

"Strength training does little to increase distance on any given swing."  You kill me dude. 

Calvin Peete

Settled clubs: Epon 50/8, 45/6, 40/5, 35/4, 30/4, 26/3 all with Zelos 8 stiff, 1/2 degree flat. Mizuno CLK Hybrid 20 degrees. Putter: 37" rife.h Hbore xl 2wood (the unicorn)--16 degrees, 420 cc? 

Not settled: 54/10 Vokey 

Not settle: 12 degree Mizuno stx 12* set to 11.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is a point of consideration I have't seen yet.  HOW in frickin' heck is handicap going to be calculated and fully comparative using different equipment?  

Scenario A: Golfer 1 plays "regular" balls in his region in recreational and competitive play and thus for reporting scores for his handicap.  Golfer 1 then had to travel to a region that requires the "new" ball for tournament play.

How do you compensate for giving Golfer 1 a new ball to play against others who have handicaps based on using that ball?

Scenario B: Golfer 2 plays in a region where some places require the "new" ball and some the old "regular" ball.  His handicap is based on scores reported using both balls.  HOW IN THE  **** can you calculate a baseline using different equipment???  Adding variables ADDS variables which throws the average off; it is like playing against the 8 handicap golfer who ONLY REPORTS his scores above +8 when he regularly shoots +4.  If Golfer 2 plays against Golfer 1 in either scenario their handicaps CANNOT be equivalent because the restrictions contribute to another differential that is NOT INCLUDED in the equation.  And it can't be because not everyone will remember to, or "check the right box" even if there was one.  And WHAT frickin' algorithm would account for a difference in ball performance?  How many variables would have to be in that calculation to make it even seem like it works out?  Are there any astrophysicist out there reading this that can help? 

Scenario C': Similar to scenario A, but opposite, Golfer 3 plays the "new" ball all the time so they don't have to worry about "possible" rule changes, but find himself playing against others who choose to use the "regular" ball because there is no rule requiring the new ball.  HOW do you calculate the literal handicap golfer 3 faces into the handicapping system and play under those circumstances?  Yes, it is a choice, but it is a choice where his, or her, handicap is calculated based on consistent equipment.  The opponents handicaps are an unknown because they may or may not be calculated using the same "new" ball, the "regular" ball all the time, or some combination.

The handicaps system cannot be viable and comparative when player 1 is using the "regular" ball, player 2 is using both and player 3 is using only the "new" ball for computation.  The inconsistency here is like arbitrarily and out of the blue taking a different club out of each players bag every round and still requiring them to record their score for handicap. Today I am pulling your sand wedge and Bob's 6-iron. Tomorrow maybe your 8-iron and Bob's putter. Next week no driver for you and Bob loses his wedge.  Would your handicap be viable if that were the case?

In all reality we are all here venting frustrations, either way, like Don Quixote tilting at windmills. The people making the decisions aren't reading through our gripes and groans and they don't give a rat's pink tailed derriere wether we like it or not. It's nice to think that the people actually paying the bill for all of their jobs and prestige would be at least payed a little lip service, but let's get real here.  Until your pounding the ball down the middle 65% of the time and carrying a +6 handicap getting paid to play in front of the big crowds you matter to them about as much as your $40 Nassau matters to the gust of wind getting ready to balloon your next tee shot short into the hazard you THOUGHT you could carry.

Cheers all.  Enjoy the game for the companions and laughs it offers.

  • Driver - Ping G400 9°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 65 gr. 
  • FW - TM M3 3-wood 15°, Project-X HZRDUS Red 6.0 75 gr. mid-spin
  • Hybrid - TM M4 19°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 85 gr. HY 
  • Irons - TM P790, 3-PW, Oban CT-115, PXG 311 P Gen 6
  • Wedges - Mizuno T20 Ion blue 52/9 & 56/14, N.S. Pro Modus3 S-flex
  • Putter - Evnroll ER2 Garsen Max grip
  • Getting a grip - oversize Winn DryTacs and Bionic gloves
  • Ball - ProV1, AVX, Maxfli Tour, PXG
  • Bag(s)/cart - Vessel Player III Rovic RV1S and Alphard V2

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read some really..."interesting" new comments and as I reviewed others it occurred to me that there is a much simpler approach to this whole discussion than has been proposed by the "governing bodies."  Maybe I missed it, but in case it just hasn't been broached I'll go ahead and open myself up to the "already stated" criticism.  

Test the current batch of balls that are conforming and in play with the proposed testing criteria and from those results create a no greater than requirement.  This means that manufacturers can either keep the current designs etc. or conduct new R&D to change without completely changing "life as we know it."  I think what really bothers me about this entire topic is just that.  Instead of pausing at the current status we now are facing a press to change something which has a ripple effect.

It may sound cynical but to me this all means somebody is getting something (benefitting in big $$$) to force this change.  I understand the perspective some have that the DTCs aren't going anywhere even with this change, but the big names are feeling it a bit from the growth of DTCs and they (the big guys) will suffer the least form the change.  The small guy always feels the hit more than the big guy does.  Is the push for this coming quietly from that arena (quiet pressure form this big board rooms whispering in the ears of the rules committees)?  Or maybe somebody in those big board rooms pissed off the rule makers by holding back some expected/traditional kick-backs/pay-offs and the plan is to get back at them by costing them millions, up front, in R&D and retooling etc.?  That may sound cynical, but 🤷‍♂️

  • Driver - Ping G400 9°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 65 gr. 
  • FW - TM M3 3-wood 15°, Project-X HZRDUS Red 6.0 75 gr. mid-spin
  • Hybrid - TM M4 19°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 85 gr. HY 
  • Irons - TM P790, 3-PW, Oban CT-115, PXG 311 P Gen 6
  • Wedges - Mizuno T20 Ion blue 52/9 & 56/14, N.S. Pro Modus3 S-flex
  • Putter - Evnroll ER2 Garsen Max grip
  • Getting a grip - oversize Winn DryTacs and Bionic gloves
  • Ball - ProV1, AVX, Maxfli Tour, PXG
  • Bag(s)/cart - Vessel Player III Rovic RV1S and Alphard V2

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Like it was mentioned by a mod, this debate has been hashed out on here and wrx with him. It’s not worth the energy. 

As much as we try to keep up with lots else going on it can be tricky, so please if this line of thread continues please report the comment and we can move forward with appropriate actions to get things back on track.

⛳🛄 as of Nov 6, 2023 (Past WITB
Driver:  :callaway-small: Paradym TD w/ GD ADDI 6X Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: F7 3 wood 14.5* w/ Motore F1 Shaft

Irons:   :titleist-small: T Series - T200 5 Iron
                                          T150 6-9 Iron
                                          T100 PW/GW

Wedge:  Toura Golf - A Spec 53,37,61 degree 

Putter:  Screenshot 2023-06-02 13.10.30.png Mezz Max!

Balls:     Vice Pro Plus Drip (Blue/Orange)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, TitleistMike said:

Players have no say other than joining LIV.

Players do NOT run PGA. Laughable to think they do. The players council has ALWAYS been a smoke and mirrors exposition.

Back to the main point....it is coming. And because Players will not be able to sway back and forth, the new criteria will be the universal criteria as all PGA events apply the MLR.

Once in place, non conforming balls will be called cheater balls.

“Non conforming” is a misnomer here. There will be two different levels of conformance. Both types of balls will be conforming to the rules as structured. 

Edited by LICC
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Subdiver1 said:

"Strength training does little to increase distance on any given swing."  Are you FLIPPIN kidding me?!?!?!  Please provide your background in personal training and sports physiology including all of the studies and tests you have coordinated, designed, observed or read.  Let me help you: 

"The results of this study demonstrate that power is significantly correlated with CHS in PGA professional golfers, confirming previously established relationships observed in amateur golfers (Lewis, Adam L.1; Ward, Nick2; Bishop, Chris3; Maloney, Sean4; Turner, Anthony N.3. Determinants of Club Head Speed in PGA Professional Golfers. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 30(8):p 2266-2270, August 2016. | DOI: 10.1519/JSC.0000000000001362).  

Oh here is one from 2020, "Eight Weeks of Strength and Power Training Improves Club Head Speed in Collegiate Golfers," (Oranchuk DJ, Mannerberg JM, Robinson TL, Nelson MC. Eight Weeks of Strength and Power Training Improves Club Head Speed in Collegiate Golfers. J Strength Cond Res. 2020 Aug;34(8):2205-2213. doi: 10.1519/JSC.0000000000002505. PMID: 29461422).

But it isn't just brute strength that results in distance, flexibility and the ability to create tempo is HUGE.  The ability to FEEL the swing apex and TRANSITION fluidly will generate more speed than some muscle head who can bench 650 trying to muscle a driver on the range.  It is the same reason why a 4'2" 92lb woman can toss a 360lb man across the mats like a rag doll.  But I digress.  

Equipment has ABSOLUTELY improved.  Ball speed off a metal head (or carbon fiber) driver is definitely hotter than off a persimmon wood head.  Lighter materials and shafts lead to increased club head speed.  But all of that aside I can still outdrive a couch potato with a Stealth 2, G425 or a Ti4 using my 1980s Wilson 1200GE woods or out distance comparative iron shots using my 1980s Titleist blades because of my level of fitness, which contributes to club head speed AND the ability to consistently generate that speed comfortably for a full round.  Kind of like an unfit guy still being able to run 4 second 40, but not being able to hold under 15 minutes for a full mile and a fit guy only being able to run a 6 second 40, but maintain under 6 minutes for the full mile or more.  Fitness = Performance.  Equipment only enhances fitness.  And if I had the flexibility I had before back surgery I'd blow it by you with a 4-year old's plastic kiddie club.

Need more examples of fitness over equipment?  From 1979 - 1985 Jack Nicklaus averaged from 264 to 269 yards off the tee.  What equipment advantage did he have over the other players???  NONE!  He played basketball, baseball and tennis in high school throughout his childhood and school years.  He had strength and athleticism that other players didn't at the time.  According to IBM recorded driving distance data at 11 PGA Tour events in 1968 the top 10 players averaged 270.2 yards, the average was 264.0 yards and Nicklaus led the Tour at 276.0 yards.   Fred Couples was a linebacker, he averaged 268 yards in 1982.  Davis Love III holds the second longest officially recorded drive in competitive play history, 476 yards at the 2004 Mercedes Championships (now the Hyundai ToC) at Kapalua. He drive was 39 yards short of the 515 yard record set by Mike Austin's in 1974.  1974!!!!!  NOT 2014, NOT 2024, 1974!  So, if the equipment is the problem why hasn't somebody beaten a record from 1974???  Sure, those guys would most likely be hitting the ball longer with today's equipment than they were then.  BUT, they were longer than the other guys and would STILL BE longer than the other guys.  So changing the equipment for everyone does NOTHING to bring the big guys down to our level.  If anything it handicaps the recreational player ever further because the advancements in technology that have led to improved clubbed speed, consistency of shaft flex and performance, improved ball speed and quality control benefit them; it doesn't penalize them.  And giving a beat up old Salt a bit of equipment to help him/her off-set all the wear and tear sure helps across the board, taking it away only penalizes all of us.  If they want to halt potential progress in distance to where it is, then do the testing using current balls and the new swing speed criteria and set the requirements right where the X-Y axes cross today.  That saves all of us recreational golfers from having to pay for manufacturers trying to figure out regression.  It saves all of us from having to return to the drawing board to figure out how far X, Y, and Z clubs are carrying and trying to figure out how to carry the pond on a 185 yard par 3.  It saves the problem of competitive amateurs having to figure out what ball they will be allowed to play at what tournaments and what the resultant club choices will have to, maybe, be.

I am going to try to put the ball factor to some level of rest by doing a "field test" tomorrow comparing my OLD 1980 model Titlest blades to my current P790 irons, 3 thru PW.  I'll post the comparative iron specs and results using current model range balls and a Swing Caddie SC300.

"Strength training does little to increase distance on any given swing."  You kill me dude. 

Just about everything you posted here is irrelevant to the point and quite misapplied. 
 

The moderator has asked to move on from this discussion. You can go back to early pages of this thread and read all the commentary on this point and learn more about it. Let’s respect the moderators wishes and move on. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, TitleistMike said:

Players have no say other than joining LIV.

Players do NOT run PGA. Laughable to think they do. The players council has ALWAYS been a smoke and mirrors exposition.

Back to the main point....it is coming. And because Players will not be able to sway back and forth, the new criteria will be the universal criteria as all PGA events apply the MLR.

Once in place, non conforming balls will be called cheater balls.

The PGA is a member organization so yes they have the power and as you mention LIV being there where they don’t have to adopt the change could be a draw for more players which isn’t what the PGA tour wants. This ball change just isn’t a change in the ball for the players, it’s a change in their whole bag to make sure they are optimizing their bag just like they have now. Professionals don’t like change. It’s why they play the same shafts over and over regardless of the model of club they have. It’s why Spieth and others take longer to change models of clubs, it’s why rory and morikawa are switching back to older models.
 

Again there is no guarantee it’s coming and even if it does it doesn’t mean it will be at the proposed testing criteria. That’s what the comment period is for. until that’s over and a decision is made nobody knows what the final decision will be. It could easily be a decision to make no changes at all and leave the ball where it’s at.
 

The PGA tour is professional golf entertainment. If the fans aren’t entertained they won’t be watching. Will the PGA adopt it out of necessity because the events around the majors will have less big names that’s possible just so they can avoid losing viewership and money at the gate. 
 

There is no such thing as non confirming balls because it’s a MLR so only events or tours that opt to use it will be required to use it whereas for the rest of the golfing public can still use then current ball. 
 

edit: what’s the financial incentive for the ball manufacturers to make the ball? 

if they don’t make the ball what will the usga and R&A do? They can’t make the ball companies produce a ball that optional to use? The PGA tour, elite level amateur events can’t make them make a ball. 
 

There’s no financial reason to invest r&d money into finding a ball because it’s still the review period so they need to know the final specs to test to.

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found the information in the tweet linked below very interesting.   I am assuming the data is accurate;  it is publically available so there is not a reason to doubt.  

As has been noted, there are periods where equipment technology increased distance and where imposed limitations slowed the increase but since 2015 distance has been trending up again

There is a chart that shows average clubhead speed really hasn't changed much since 2007 and a chart that shows carry has increased by about 20 yards since 2007.  Maybe fitness isn't as much in play as I would have thought.  

This makes you question where the increase is coming from???

  • equipment (ball and driver) has limitations in place. 
  • Strokes gained metrics started gaining traction in roughly 2015 creating a change in strategy for most players.  Driver versus laying back to a distance. 
  • How many holes is driver distance measured?  Has the shotlink era changed this from 2 holes to every hole and we not get more accurate data than when there was just a downwind and upwind hole where players maybe didn't play driver?
  • With clubhead speed and equipment staying roughly the same same 2007, how are player hitting the balls significantly farther?  PGA level players don't miss the center of the face by much so I don't personally think it is attributable to off center forgiveness.  My guess would be the increased usage of launch monitors to optimize equipment,  launch, and spin conditions.     In my opinion, the new ball would result in a flatlining of distance growth,  but with technology, players will replace equipment to optimize launch conditions and we will get back to seeing increases in distance.  

 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I found the information in the tweet linked below very interesting.   I am assuming the data is accurate;  it is publically available so there is not a reason to doubt.  

As has been noted, there are periods where equipment technology increased distance and where imposed limitations slowed the increase but since 2015 distance has been trending up again

There is a chart that shows average clubhead speed really hasn't changed much since 2007 and a chart that shows carry has increased by about 20 yards since 2007.  Maybe fitness isn't as much in play as I would have thought.  

This makes you question where the increase is coming from???

  • equipment (ball and driver) has limitations in place. 
  • Strokes gained metrics started gaining traction in roughly 2015 creating a change in strategy for most players.  Driver versus laying back to a distance. 
  • How many holes is driver distance measured?  Has the shotlink era changed this from 2 holes to every hole and we not get more accurate data than when there was just a downwind and upwind hole where players maybe didn't play driver?
  • With clubhead speed and equipment staying roughly the same same 2007, how are player hitting the balls significantly farther?  PGA level players don't miss the center of the face by much so I don't personally think it is attributable to off center forgiveness.  My guess would be the increased usage of launch monitors to optimize equipment,  launch, and spin conditions.     In my opinion, the new ball would result in a flatlining of distance growth,  but with technology, players will replace equipment to optimize launch conditions and we will get back to seeing increases in distance.  

 

Equipment hasn’t been the same since 2007. The advances have slowed but they have still happened. Shaft technology, more forgiving driver heads, etc. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/17/2023 at 11:00 AM, LICC said:

Bifurcation is already part of golf. Recreational players don't use the same tee boxes at anywhere near the lengths of the courses that pros play. 

Well, usually that is the case (see my comment above about playing the black tees in my tournament on Thursday).  Also, in my last two rounds at Bethpage Black, we played from the tips (same tees used for the 2002 and 2009 U. S. Opens).

DR - Callaway Paradym X, Newton Motion 4-Dot

4W - T.E. Exotics C722, Diamana D+ 82-S

HYB - Paradym X 18*, HZRDUS Smoke Red 80S; Sub 70 949X 21*, same shaft

7W (if played) - Callaway Epic Flash, ACCRA Tour X 80S

Irons - Cobra Forged Tec X (5-GW), KBS TGI 75-R

Wedges - Edison 2.0, 53* and 57* (bent to 58*), KBS TGI 100

Putter - Makefield VS custom, 34", 67* lie, 1.75* loft

Ball - Maxfli Tour-X CG (2023) or Vice Pro Plus (OnCore ELIXR or Maxfli Tour S in winter)

Bags - Vessel

Cart - MotoCaddy M7 Remote (without the remote)

Spoiler

driver / off the tee is no longer a weakness for me!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has anyone ever realized how many members come out of the woodwork for topics like this? Why do we only see engaged discussion on something that we have zero control over and is usually polarizing?!? ENGAGE MORE! Well some comments from certain members also indicates they should post less 🤣🤣🤣🤣

I like golf. You should like golf. If life is tough, play more golf!

Callaway Paradym Triple Diamond 10.5, ProjectX HZRDUS Smoke Black

Titleist TSi2 18 Degree Hybrid, Project X HZRDUS Smoke Black RDX Hexcel

Takomo 301CB's, KBS Tours S

Vokey SM8 48 10F, 52 08F, 56 08M, 60 08M

Odyssey Stroke Lab 2 Ball 10 

Nike VR Tour Staff Bag

Titleist Pro V1x and Vice Pro Plus

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, TylorJudd said:

Has anyone ever realized how many members come out of the woodwork for topics like this? Why do we only see engaged discussion on something that we have zero control over and is usually polarizing?!? ENGAGE MORE! Well some comments from certain members also indicates they should post less 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Hopefully we see some who got involved in this thread find other threads that interest them. 

Controversial topics always bring added comments and members. LIV, Distance Debate and more. 

Same goes for when member testing starts then you will really see many come out of the woodworks! 

 

⛳🛄 as of Nov 6, 2023 (Past WITB
Driver:  :callaway-small: Paradym TD w/ GD ADDI 6X Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: F7 3 wood 14.5* w/ Motore F1 Shaft

Irons:   :titleist-small: T Series - T200 5 Iron
                                          T150 6-9 Iron
                                          T100 PW/GW

Wedge:  Toura Golf - A Spec 53,37,61 degree 

Putter:  Screenshot 2023-06-02 13.10.30.png Mezz Max!

Balls:     Vice Pro Plus Drip (Blue/Orange)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, LICC said:

Equipment hasn’t been the same since 2007. The advances have slowed but they have still happened. Shaft technology, more forgiving driver heads, etc. 

Yes,  you have said that about 1000+ times in this thread.  I didn't say there haven't been advances but there have been limitations imposed and it has stayed roughly the same.   I don't believe more forgiving heads have had much influence in pro distance since they mostly hit the center of the face and there are limitations on trampoline effect so that doesn't show ball speed increases with same driver speed.   Shaft have changed to help pros optimize launch and spins conditions to maximize distance;  this will continue even with the new balls. With these new shafts driver speed remained the same.   So yes,  I supported your position that it isn't player fitness but equipment as well as  better understanding of desired launch characteristics, player strategy, and more data capture by the tours  that has lead to the faster uptick since 2015.  You even acknowledged that the advances have slowed but the distance numbers have increased as a faster rate so it can't just be equipment. 

7 minutes ago, TylorJudd said:

Has anyone ever realized how many members come out of the woodwork for topics like this? Why do we only see engaged discussion on something that we have zero control over and is usually polarizing?!? ENGAGE MORE! Well some comments from certain members also indicates they should post less 🤣🤣🤣🤣

It is tied to the daily emails that highlight threads and this one was highlighted a few days ago.  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Subdiver1 said:

using my 1980s Wilson 1200GE woods

Cool. That was my second set of woods. How in the heck do you still have them? Good on you.

Driver: Callaway Epic 9 degree, stiff (set at 10 degrees with the movable weight in the center}

FW: Callaway Epic 3,5, heaven wood w/ regular shaft (driver shaft in 3 wood, 3 wood shaft in 5 wood, 5 wood shaft in heaven wood, all three set at neutral plus 1 degree)

Hybrids: Callaway BB19 4,6,7 (4 set at neutral plus 1 degree and 6 and 7 set at neutral minus 1 degree for gapping purposes)

Irons: Callaway Rogue ST Max 8, 9, PW 

Wedges: Titleist Vokey SM6 50,54,58

Ball: Titleist Pro V1, 1X, Vice Pro Plus or anything I find that day and try out for the fun of it (I haven't bought balls with my own money in at least 10 years)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hasn’t golf been through enough with Liv now the distance stuff..  USGA  has a few majors a year they are not The PGA 0r for the 99 percent of golfers who play for the sake of playing..Enough of this.. let’s just play. Rolling back the distance the ball travels is silly.. 

2BFD20D8-10CA-4333-99FB-9047D5B3176E.gif

New PXG Xcore ..irons and 0311 XF driver…

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, funkyjudge said:

Well, usually that is the case (see my comment above about playing the black tees in my tournament on Thursday).  Also, in my last two rounds at Bethpage Black, we played from the tips (same tees used for the 2002 and 2009 U. S. Opens).

The blue tees at the Black are not the tee boxes used for the majors. Most of those tee boxes are generally not even maintained well except for those tournaments. I’ve played the Black countless times and have never once seen anyone use those tee boxes. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Beakbryce said:

Cool. That was my second set of woods. How in the heck do you still have them? Good on you.

The short answer it that when I got to my 2nd or 3rd duty station I picked them up during a visit back home so I could start playing again while living in San Diego and have just never gotten rid of them.  I played them through high school along with those 1980 Titleist Tour blades and I didn't have a lot of spare funds back in those days so I played with what I had and they have just followed me through the years.  

I picked up some knockoff metals in the late 90s and played an Orlimar Trimetal; still have that one floating around as well.  I did upgrade my driver to a 975D at some point, then picked up a Ping Rapture that I gamed until a few years ago.  I've toyed with taking the 1200s and the blades out for a round to see what it is like to play them again.  I am actually going to the range later today to compare the blades to my current iron numbers.  I play with a group of guys once a month where we play a different format and try to change up locations/courses.  I was toying around with trying to get everyone to play one of our matches with pre-2000 equipment just to see how that goes.  I think it would be fun.  The problem would be the logistics of everyone having or obtaining, or wanting to obtain, such relics just for one outing. 

Anyway, short answer, because I have a bunch of crap in my garage/storage that I haven't gotten around to getting rid of because I'd rather be out playing than sorting through "stuff" and trying ti figure out what I should keep and what I need to get rid of LOL!

  • Driver - Ping G400 9°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 65 gr. 
  • FW - TM M3 3-wood 15°, Project-X HZRDUS Red 6.0 75 gr. mid-spin
  • Hybrid - TM M4 19°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 85 gr. HY 
  • Irons - TM P790, 3-PW, Oban CT-115, PXG 311 P Gen 6
  • Wedges - Mizuno T20 Ion blue 52/9 & 56/14, N.S. Pro Modus3 S-flex
  • Putter - Evnroll ER2 Garsen Max grip
  • Getting a grip - oversize Winn DryTacs and Bionic gloves
  • Ball - ProV1, AVX, Maxfli Tour, PXG
  • Bag(s)/cart - Vessel Player III Rovic RV1S and Alphard V2

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, LICC said:

Just about everything you posted here is irrelevant to the point and quite misapplied. 
 

The moderator has asked to move on from this discussion. You can go back to early pages of this thread and read all the commentary on this point and learn more about it. Let’s respect the moderators wishes and move on. 

Are you kidding me?!?  

Irrelevant and misapplied?  YOU stated that "strength training does little to increase distance on any given swing."  Which is part and parcel of the new testing criteria (120MPH to 127MPH) and is an elemental part of the argument that is being made to "roll back" golf ball design.  So, the specific point cannot be "irrelevant" in response or as part of the thread.  The response and evidence CANNOT be "misapplied" because it DIRECTLY applies to your false assertion that one does not affect the other.  Your choice to not like facts don't make them any less relevant or applicable.

How about grow up and respond, "Wow. I didn't know that. I may not agree, but thanks I learned something today.  Going back to the ball itself..."

But in light of and in response:

A. PLEASE report ME to the moderator for responding to your statement by providing you with PEER REVIEWED STUDIES which provide data which directly contradicts your silly assertion; AND which also DIRECTLY correlate to point of the topic, in that this bifurcating MLR doesn't close any gap among players. 

B. YOU are the one who posted the statement, to which a response was provided with real objective evidence and data vs. subjective opinion.

C.  The only "moderator response" I've seen in the recent thread statements referred to a comment about Bryson.  But by all means PLEASE report ME to the moderator for RESPONDING to your absurd assertion.  I already moved on from this facet after sending you facts hoping it would help you because, well, because it is moot since the peer reviewed studies already solved that argument.  I'm good having passionate discussion on any topic and fielding disagreement because hearing differing points of view is how we open our minds and learn.  But when it comes to this kind of exchange hey, I'd love to have a conversation with one of the poor moderators who gets stuck having to go read all of this because a you got schooled and it drove you to come back with, "I'm going to tell my mommy."  😭

Worry not, regardless of anything direction from a moderator to cease and desist, I'll refrain from bothering to provide facts, contradicting or supporting, any future statement, in an effort to prevent them being "misapplied and irrelevant" to your feelings.  Good day sir.

  • Driver - Ping G400 9°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 65 gr. 
  • FW - TM M3 3-wood 15°, Project-X HZRDUS Red 6.0 75 gr. mid-spin
  • Hybrid - TM M4 19°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 85 gr. HY 
  • Irons - TM P790, 3-PW, Oban CT-115, PXG 311 P Gen 6
  • Wedges - Mizuno T20 Ion blue 52/9 & 56/14, N.S. Pro Modus3 S-flex
  • Putter - Evnroll ER2 Garsen Max grip
  • Getting a grip - oversize Winn DryTacs and Bionic gloves
  • Ball - ProV1, AVX, Maxfli Tour, PXG
  • Bag(s)/cart - Vessel Player III Rovic RV1S and Alphard V2

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Subdiver1 said:

The short answer it that when I got to my 2nd or 3rd duty station I picked them up during a visit back home so I could start playing again while living in San Diego and have just never gotten rid of them.  I played them through high school along with those 1980 Titleist Tour blades and I didn't have a lot of spare funds back in those days so I played with what I had and they have just followed me through the years.  

I picked up some knockoff metals in the late 90s and played an Orlimar Trimetal; still have that one floating around as well.  I did upgrade my driver to a 975D at some point, then picked up a Ping Rapture that I gamed until a few years ago.  I've toyed with taking the 1200s and the blades out for a round to see what it is like to play them again.  I am actually going to the range later today to compare the blades to my current iron numbers.  I play with a group of guys once a month where we play a different format and try to change up locations/courses.  I was toying around with trying to get everyone to play one of our matches with pre-2000 equipment just to see how that goes.  I think it would be fun.  The problem would be the logistics of everyone having or obtaining, or wanting to obtain, such relics just for one outing. 

Anyway, short answer, because I have a bunch of crap in my garage/storage that I haven't gotten around to getting rid of because I'd rather be out playing than sorting through "stuff" and trying ti figure out what I should keep and what I need to get rid of LOL!

 I would be interested to see how you feel about hitting them now. I would think the swing weight, shaft lengths, and general feel would be a lot different than modern clubs. They will probably be shorter with a club to club comparison due to shaft length. But still fun I would imagine.

Driver: Callaway Epic 9 degree, stiff (set at 10 degrees with the movable weight in the center}

FW: Callaway Epic 3,5, heaven wood w/ regular shaft (driver shaft in 3 wood, 3 wood shaft in 5 wood, 5 wood shaft in heaven wood, all three set at neutral plus 1 degree)

Hybrids: Callaway BB19 4,6,7 (4 set at neutral plus 1 degree and 6 and 7 set at neutral minus 1 degree for gapping purposes)

Irons: Callaway Rogue ST Max 8, 9, PW 

Wedges: Titleist Vokey SM6 50,54,58

Ball: Titleist Pro V1, 1X, Vice Pro Plus or anything I find that day and try out for the fun of it (I haven't bought balls with my own money in at least 10 years)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

As much as we try to keep up with lots else going on it can be tricky, so please if this line of thread continues please report the comment and we can move forward with appropriate actions to get things back on track.

I think free form discussion, aside from any direct threat of harm or name calling, is good debate.  The funny thing about getting a group discussion going is that group think is driven by the fear of being told, your thought doesn't matter.  In direct, in person, communication we need group norms to prevent group think, in forums like this lack of a response will, or should, cut irrelevant threads off form the main topic; or the relevant tributaries that flow from it.  If moderators start shutting down free form thinking and bringing out points that may not be directly relevant, but might lead to another relevant thought path, they create and echo chamber suppress open discussion.  Realistically, we could say that anything here is "irrelevant" because the likelihood that anything any of us writes has an impact on the decision is probably less than .01%.  

If we were to conduct a true root cause analysis (RCA) and come up with an honest solution we would have to include equipment design progression (ball and club components), fitness training, course conditions, and many other facets of the game and players that ave been discussed here.  Cutting off one particular line of thought or discussion arbitrarily could prevent a relevant line being drawn between to other subject points.  E.g. The strength training = club head speed = balls speed = distance.  Solutions?  Prevent strength training?  Limit shaft length? Control club weight? Control club face design? Control ball design? Require course layout to only play INTO the prevailing winds? Require course design to have uphill slope in target driving ranges to limit roll out?  Some of these "solutions" sound ridiculous, but are not less ridiculous to many of us than having two, or more, different ball designs for different regions or play.  I agree some of them are ABSIOLUTELY ridiculous, but free thinking and getting silly ideas out there lead to discussion of possible solutions that might not be thought of or expressed if someone didn't hear the silly idea or think that they would be shut down for expressing a silly idea "just because."  In industry many innovations and solutions have come to fruition BECAUSE of silly ideas that started the "Why not?" thought pattern and discussion.

So, we don't need to have threats and name calling.  We don't need to discuss Bryson per se because people just can't see past liking him or not liking him, whatever.  But what is accomplished by shutting down a discussion that will just Peter out when the steam fades after no one responds anymore?

  • Driver - Ping G400 9°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 65 gr. 
  • FW - TM M3 3-wood 15°, Project-X HZRDUS Red 6.0 75 gr. mid-spin
  • Hybrid - TM M4 19°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 85 gr. HY 
  • Irons - TM P790, 3-PW, Oban CT-115, PXG 311 P Gen 6
  • Wedges - Mizuno T20 Ion blue 52/9 & 56/14, N.S. Pro Modus3 S-flex
  • Putter - Evnroll ER2 Garsen Max grip
  • Getting a grip - oversize Winn DryTacs and Bionic gloves
  • Ball - ProV1, AVX, Maxfli Tour, PXG
  • Bag(s)/cart - Vessel Player III Rovic RV1S and Alphard V2

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LICC said:

The blue tees at the Black are not the tee boxes used for the majors. Most of those tee boxes are generally not even maintained well except for those tournaments. I’ve played the Black countless times and have never once seen anyone use those tee boxes. 

I didn’t play the blue tees at Bethpage Black! I played the black tees both times.  They were immaculately maintained, except for the tee boxes on hole #10 and on #14 where there was a temporary tee box because maintenance was going on.

These were tournament rounds and it was known in advance that we would be playing the Black Course from the tips, so any golfers who ware unable or unwilling to play from those tees (about 7,400 yards, if I recall correctly) could opt not to pay the registration fee and enter these events.

Edited by funkyjudge

DR - Callaway Paradym X, Newton Motion 4-Dot

4W - T.E. Exotics C722, Diamana D+ 82-S

HYB - Paradym X 18*, HZRDUS Smoke Red 80S; Sub 70 949X 21*, same shaft

7W (if played) - Callaway Epic Flash, ACCRA Tour X 80S

Irons - Cobra Forged Tec X (5-GW), KBS TGI 75-R

Wedges - Edison 2.0, 53* and 57* (bent to 58*), KBS TGI 100

Putter - Makefield VS custom, 34", 67* lie, 1.75* loft

Ball - Maxfli Tour-X CG (2023) or Vice Pro Plus (OnCore ELIXR or Maxfli Tour S in winter)

Bags - Vessel

Cart - MotoCaddy M7 Remote (without the remote)

Spoiler

driver / off the tee is no longer a weakness for me!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Subdiver1 said:

I think free form discussion, aside from any direct threat of harm or name calling, is good debate.  The funny thing about getting a group discussion going is that group think is driven by the fear of being told, your thought doesn't matter.  In direct, in person, communication we need group norms to prevent group think, in forums like this lack of a response will, or should, cut irrelevant threads off form the main topic; or the relevant tributaries that flow from it.  If moderators start shutting down free form thinking and bringing out points that may not be directly relevant, but might lead to another relevant thought path, they create and echo chamber suppress open discussion.  Realistically, we could say that anything here is "irrelevant" because the likelihood that anything any of us writes has an impact on the decision is probably less than .01%.  

If we were to conduct a true root cause analysis (RCA) and come up with an honest solution we would have to include equipment design progression (ball and club components), fitness training, course conditions, and many other facets of the game and players that ave been discussed here.  Cutting off one particular line of thought or discussion arbitrarily could prevent a relevant line being drawn between to other subject points.  E.g. The strength training = club head speed = balls speed = distance.  Solutions?  Prevent strength training?  Limit shaft length? Control club weight? Control club face design? Control ball design? Require course layout to only play INTO the prevailing winds? Require course design to have uphill slope in target driving ranges to limit roll out?  Some of these "solutions" sound ridiculous, but are not less ridiculous to many of us than having two, or more, different ball designs for different regions or play.  I agree some of them are ABSIOLUTELY ridiculous, but free thinking and getting silly ideas out there lead to discussion of possible solutions that might not be thought of or expressed if someone didn't hear the silly idea or think that they would be shut down for expressing a silly idea "just because."  In industry many innovations and solutions have come to fruition BECAUSE of silly ideas that started the "Why not?" thought pattern and discussion.

So, we don't need to have threats and name calling.  We don't need to discuss Bryson per se because people just can't see past liking him or not liking him, whatever.  But what is accomplished by shutting down a discussion that will just Peter out when the steam fades after no one responds anymore?

Where did I say anything about shutting down this discussion? 

The reason for my comment is we have had (still do) a thread on the distance debate and fitness in relation which got heated and where warnings had to be handed out. This while a valuable conversation is for another thread and our goal is to not mute or stop members from commenting, but to ensure that this thread  remains mostly on point. 

If members want to have the fitness debate, go for it, but it can go in if own thread. 

Pretty sure we are pretty lenient here with discussions and don't make efforts to control or dictate opinions one way or another.

⛳🛄 as of Nov 6, 2023 (Past WITB
Driver:  :callaway-small: Paradym TD w/ GD ADDI 6X Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: F7 3 wood 14.5* w/ Motore F1 Shaft

Irons:   :titleist-small: T Series - T200 5 Iron
                                          T150 6-9 Iron
                                          T100 PW/GW

Wedge:  Toura Golf - A Spec 53,37,61 degree 

Putter:  Screenshot 2023-06-02 13.10.30.png Mezz Max!

Balls:     Vice Pro Plus Drip (Blue/Orange)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LICC said:

The blue tees at the Black are not the tee boxes used for the majors. Most of those tee boxes are generally not even maintained well except for those tournaments. I’ve played the Black countless times and have never once seen anyone use those tee boxes. 

Do you think that I am an idiot or so naive that I would think that blue tees are tournament tees ANYWHERE?  I have played competitive golf for more than 35 years, although it is getting very frustrating the last few years as my handicap has ballooned from single digits to the mid-teens.

DR - Callaway Paradym X, Newton Motion 4-Dot

4W - T.E. Exotics C722, Diamana D+ 82-S

HYB - Paradym X 18*, HZRDUS Smoke Red 80S; Sub 70 949X 21*, same shaft

7W (if played) - Callaway Epic Flash, ACCRA Tour X 80S

Irons - Cobra Forged Tec X (5-GW), KBS TGI 75-R

Wedges - Edison 2.0, 53* and 57* (bent to 58*), KBS TGI 100

Putter - Makefield VS custom, 34", 67* lie, 1.75* loft

Ball - Maxfli Tour-X CG (2023) or Vice Pro Plus (OnCore ELIXR or Maxfli Tour S in winter)

Bags - Vessel

Cart - MotoCaddy M7 Remote (without the remote)

Spoiler

driver / off the tee is no longer a weakness for me!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...