Bifurcation/Ball Roll Back Discussion

[Albatrass]

9 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The ball is going to be more spinnier and that is going to increase the movement sideways so no shorter doesn’t mean straighter 

You are right. For me and I believe a lot of others I may not hit it as straight, but I will not go as deep into the rough.  Having a somewhat easier second shot is a lot better than hunting for a ball and taking penalties.  LOL  Have a great day.

[cnosil]

4 minutes ago, Albatrass said:

You are so right.  But for me I will not hit the ball as far and therefore not as deep into the rough.  A major victory.  LOL  

I assume that you will be switching to the elite ball?     
 

This is really the follow up to this decision.   If the tours and elite competitions choose to invoke the rule, which ball will you play?   

[cnosil]

1 minute ago, Albatrass said:

You are right. For me and I believe a lot of others I may not hit it as straight, but I will not go as deep into the rough.  Having a somewhat easier second shot is a lot better than hunting for a ball and taking penalties.  LOL  Have a great day.

What makes you think you will not hit it as “deep into the rough” and have less penalties.   If you want to do that today, why not just play the ball that spins the most?

[chisag]

... These are just my personal opinions and not shared by all nor meant as an attempt to change anyones mind. That said, I have not watched many PGA Tour events because frankly I find them boring. Watching Pro's hit an iron onto virtually every par 5 in two takes way the deign features of the hole. Water left the entire way means hitting a hybrid or fairway wood is much more of a risk reward than hitting a towering 6 iron that lands soft with little roll. Watching the LPGA play par 5's is infinitely more enjoyable. The very longest hitters may sometimes have an iron into a par 5 and justifiable so, but average hitters will have a hybrid or fairway wood and shorter hitters play the par 5's as a 3 shot hole. These are the best players on the planet and find many different ways to make birdie which is always interesting. 

... I would liken it to baseball. The solid golf ball went straighter and much farther. If they brought out a new baseball that enabled every player to easily hit a home run you would change the game to the equivalent of bomb and gouge. Much like I have little desire to see a Tour event when everyone is -25 under par, I have no interesting in watching a baseball game where the final score is 47 to 42 with 81 home runs, one triple. one double and 5 singles. Even short stops would be 6'7" 282 lbs and look like Aaron Judge. I think one of there reasons the NFL is so successful is they don't do anything different than Uncle Rico in high school, they are just bigger, stronger, faster and do it at a higher more athletic level. 

.... I do not want to watch a different game than I play. I just want to watch Tour Pro's do what I do better. Muuuuch better. I would feel 99% sure no course designer put in bunkers, trees, water and narrowed the intended landing area on a par 5 to have a player just fly all of it and have a 7 iron second shot. The great thing about golf, especially at the recreational level, is you can play par golf in many different ways. A long hitter brings more trouble into play with the risk reward of hitting a short iron 2nd shot, while a short hitter with a stellar short game does not face the same trouble but has to hit longer clubs and get up and down.  

... Who didn't enjoy watching Pro's hit 58 balls in the water on 17 at the Players this week? Still 58 out of thousands of shots and I saw a feature where they tracked Ams for a day and something like 101 out of 159 hit it in the water. They could all identify for a change. I love watching the Majors because the courses are set up more difficult and the pressure is greater. I watch most every LPGA and Woman's college golf because they use all their clubs and hit every conceivable shot. But I just don't watch many PGA events. For me at least, rolling the ball back will entice me to watch more. 

[storm319]

17 minutes ago, Albatrass said:

You are so right.  But for me I will not hit the ball as far and therefore not as deep into the rough.  A major victory.  LOL  

Not to mention that neither the course length nor driving distance differences that we are talking about here will really have a direct correlation to pace of play.

[GolfSpy_APH]

2 hours ago, ChuckZ said:

I think they need to work on something more important and that is slow play at all levels.  Baseball has addressed the issue with speeding up the game with success this year.  UGGA and R&A, lets work on this at all levels (especially at the PGA level, because they influence the amateurs watching them on TV.  If they take 30 seconds to putt, then most ams feel they should also.). 

People are hitting the balls longer because they are better conditioned athletes.  Look at their swing speeds.  Yes the equipment is somewhat better and the distances for some is insane. PGA Tour Player - Driver 285 - 321 yds (Tour Average: 299.8 yds).  It is a science to get less spin from the drivers and balls which is increasing the distances, with the players swing speed and the ball speed. So much for just grip it and hit it.      

Pace of play is a whole other can of worms.

[storm319]

5 hours ago, joedeausen said:

Storm319....   I did say at the beginning of the post, "I put together this commentary on bifurcation back in early 2018"

Korn Ferry Tour started in 2019    https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2019/06/24/golf-korn-ferry-web-dot-com-tour/

Sorry, missed that. Much of what I said was still relevant in 2018 as we knew the mechanisms they would use to enforce, just didn’t know if it would be adopted globally or with a limited scope.

[funkyjudge]

I am with Justin Thomas, Jordan Spieth, and Sam Burns (among others) on this golf ball subject. The proposed “master local rule” is ridiculous, does nothing to grow the game of golf, and is designed to address a problem that does not exist.

The other factor that others have brought up is that, since “elite golfers” do not pay for their golf balls, the substantial costs incurred by golf ball manufacturers to produce balls for use in the elite competitions will most certainly be passed on to the golfing public in the form of increased golf ball prices for other golf balls.

[Ben_Howell34]

43 minutes ago, chisag said:

I love watching the Majors because the courses are set up more difficult and the pressure is greater.

To me, this is where they need to address this versus dialing the ball or clubs back. These massive under par numbers happen on the same courses every year. If you look at Augusta, the under par number has pretty much stayed the same, barring weather. Same for other major locations (exception being St. Andrew’s last year, which was due to abnormally beautiful weather that week).
 

If these other courses would put designs in that makes players think before grabbing driver (i.e. thick rough, narrower fairways, deeper bunkers, water, big elevation changes, etc.) that would be a bigger help to this than going back to the 70s equipment wise. 
 

Great golf to me has almost every shot having to consider the risk vs reward. Seems to me these PGA courses are too set up to where you just grab driver. It’s not the players fault they’ve busted their tail daily to mash the ball. 

[chisag]

2 minutes ago, Ben_Howell34 said:

If you look at Augusta, the under par number has pretty much stayed the same, barring weather.

 

... To be fair, Augusta has the real estate to continue lengthening their course while many others do not.  in the last 20 years the AN has gone from 6,985 yards to the current 7,475 yards. The fact that the scores have stayed the same certainly indicate had they stayed at 6,985 the scores would be much lower.

... But obviously the design of the course also play a huge role. Depending on pin placements, #15 dictates a difficult option whether going for it in two or 3. Such a great hole. And #13 can reward the longest hitters if they are very accurate, yet we see so many balls in the trees/pine straw to the right, so far from a bomb and gauge hole. This year it has gone from 510 to 545 yds and it will be interesting to see how that effects scoring. 

[LICC]

On 3/14/2023 at 1:31 PM, revkev said:

Actually they did last year.

 

And we still had a guy break the home run record.  Athletes are getting bigger and stronger, that's not changing.  Even if you were to roll everything back to 1990 you could still fine tune those clubs and balls to get more out of them than they got back then.  Are you going to say that guys can't use trackman to practice and fit?  How would you legislate that?  

 

To me Golf seems very health right now on all levels.  I understand that you can never stand still or you go backwards but when something is healthy radical changes aren't necessary.  We've had tournaments won with a winning score single digits under par as well is mid 20's under par thus far this season.  I don't think it's gotten too easy.  

 

I did think that the response to the press release today was a collective - "Thanks for all you do but no thanks to this one.  We'll pass."  As DaveP wrote none of this is a surprise.  It's been talked about some the 1980's.  They should have done it then when they had the chance.  If this was that big a concern at least.  Instead of this they should forward look, consider what might come next, what might be good or bad for the game and legislate that.  

Give today's players 1990 equipment and they would hit the balls roughly the same as the players in 1990. You would see minimal differences.

[LICC]

On 3/14/2023 at 2:03 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s simple stop messing with the game and they can keep doing what they want in their sanctioned events. There doesn’t have to be a rule per se, they an work with the pga tour on course setup each week to make it more like the USGA events, but the pga tour isn’t going to allow that so what the usga and R&A are doing is trying to force their stance on the tour. Creating a problem because people with money want to build a course to host a pga tour event and they feel like they need more acreage instead of more creative designs.

It would suck if the ball companies said since the usga and R&A want to go this route we aren’t going to have an elite player ball and a line for the non elite golfers so we will put all money into the rollback and will only sell that ball at retail as well as have it played in elite level tournaments.

There would be a lot of ticked off golfers

Exactly. As I mentioned this is the ruing bodies trying to force their stance on the professional tours who have not worked well with them.

I hope the tours tell them to pound sand

Controlling distance through bifurcation is a far better option than narrowing fairways and growing rough to penal heights on all courses. That would detract from course strategy and design and be boring. Rolling back the ball adds to course strategy.

[LICC]

On 3/14/2023 at 2:04 PM, GolfSpy MPR said:

My hottest take on all this rollback stuff: the panic response to longer hitters was stupid and created the problem.

When guys hit it longer, you should respond by making courses *shorter*. "Tiger-proofing," lengthening the course, just gives longer hitters even more of an advantage over the shorter hitters.

I can (potentially) hang with Scottie Scheffler in a putting contest inside 5'. Every single yard we move away from the hole, his distance and skill advantage over me is exponentially magnified.

The classic courses made "obsolete" by distance gains leaned into their obsolescence by lengthening.

Don't roll back the ball. If you want to "balance" the game by making power less of a factor, shorten the courses.

That is not feasible. It would dumb down play. 7000+ yard courses are already too short for most of the Tour. There are no par-5s anymore. Par-5s are now long par-4s. Most all par-3s have to be 200 yards to be a challenge. Most par-4s are now short irons or wedges on 2nd shots. Shortening the courses would turn the courses into pitch and putts.

[Albatrass]

3 hours ago, cnosil said:

I assume that you will be switching to the elite ball?     
 

This is really the follow up to this decision.   If the tours and elite competitions choose to invoke the rule, which ball will you play?   

If that is the ball that is available to use according to "The Rules of Golf" I will be ok with it.  I will still choose the company I want.  

[fixyurdivot]

14 hours ago, MattWillGolf said:

To combat excessive iron head patina I read that the R&A has consulted with Aaron Rai to develop standards for the mandatory use iron head covers which they hope to implement by 2027.

Jamie doesn't know this yet, so keep it on the down-low, but if he should win either the MGS Pick 'Em or FTx league (low probability mind you), we're sending him a set of iron head covers.

[cnosil]

6 minutes ago, Albatrass said:

If that is the ball that is available to use according to "The Rules of Golf" I will be ok with it.  I will still choose the company I want.  

Current balls will still be acceptable under the rules of golf.  The MLR that is being discussed is like the one ball rule or not allowing rangefinders/GPS for elite competitions it will need to be made a condition of the competition.   At this point the tours haven’t even said if they are going to invoke the condition.

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, funkyjudge said:

The other factor that others have brought up is that, since “elite golfers” do not pay for their golf balls, the substantial costs incurred by golf ball manufacturers to produce balls for use in the elite competitions will most certainly be passed on to the golfing public in the form of increased golf ball prices for other golf balls.

WHAAAATTTT???  The hell you say!!  See you all at USGA HQ!!

[Albatrass]

1 hour ago, storm319 said:

Not to mention that neither the course length nor driving distance differences that we are talking about here will really have a direct correlation to pace of play.

I think hunting for balls taking penalties does slow pace.  Unless you just drop one and play.  This is only my view

[Albatrass]

5 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Current balls will still be acceptable under the rules of golf.  The MLR that is being discussed is like the one ball rule or not allowing rangefinders/GPS for elite competitions it will need to be made a condition of the competition.   At this point the tours haven’t even said if they are going to invoke the condition.

I understand that.  What I am thinking about is increasing the diameter of the ball so everyone will be able to use the same ball.  The pro's will not be able to hit it as far as they do now.  Driving par fours will be a lot more risky.  If something is not done courses will not be cost effective to build and maintain.  The ones that will be built the fees will be so high the lower income and medium income families will not be able to play.  If you have plenty of income it will not matter, and you will not care how much is spent to build it or what the fees are.  I am not sure but I will bet there are more courses closing than are being built due to cost for the owners and the players.

[Subdiver1]

1 minute ago, LICC said:

Controlling distance through bifurcation is a far better option than narrowing fairways and growing rough to penal heights on all courses. That would detract from course strategy and design and be boring. Rolling back the ball adds to course strategy.

How do you figure?  

Course design 101 is to place hazards in places where they come into play for those who are supposed to be playing from each tee set, set for the distance those players are supposed to be playing from (e.g. 190 5-iron X 36 = 6800 yd tees) so fairway bunkers, cross fairway hazards etc. would come into play somewhere around tee shot distance or where a good tee shot puts the next shot into a lay-up or 85% chance your in it situation. Narrowing fairways for tournaments and thickening the rough have been shown to absolutely BURY the players who cannot keep it in the fairway (e.g. '07 @ Oakmont, '20 Winged Foot).  

They did a GREAT job refurbishing our course in southern GA back in the 90s and in the process narrowed the fairways, that lasted about 6 weeks before the complaints go so bad they had to cut them back so guys, and gals, could keep it in the fairway.  Up here in WA there are courses where you can watch the ball go in and not find it with 42 people and 3 hunting dogs trained to find surlyn; and if you do find it in the fescue, 70% of the time or more you're probably better off taking the unplayable.  

Forcing players to play strategically because of hazard variation between course is what golf is all about.  That is why a guy who is a 2 on his home course where there is no strategy, who plays 99.5% on one or two courses, can easily be a 14 when they travel, especially when you travel to new regions with different grass, elevation etc. that you might not have on home courses.  Reducing ball flight is one-dimensional.  AND it only screws amateurs.  The big guys are still not only going to blow it by you, their accuracy AND distance advantage are still going to be there.  

For simplicity sake let's say they make a rule that drops flight 15%.  If your average drive is 250 that Adding variation in ball flight means (250*.15=37.5) your new average is 213; the guys your playing against averaged 285 (285*.15=42.5) dropping his average to 242; you're STILL 30 yards back.  if you are using the formulas for tee selection instead of ego (e.g. https://www.golfwrx.com/642381/how-to-select-the-proper-tees-to-play-from-what-tees-you-should-play-from/) were playing from the 6200-6500 yard tees (Whites?) you are now playing the Red (?) tees, and struggling to get there.  Go forbid you are one of those guys who has a 250 average drive distance, before the restriction, and thinks he should be playing from the 7200 yd tips.  On the other hand, if you narrow fairways and put hazards in the right place you open the long guy with the ego to drilling one into the hazard while you come up safe, then play smoothly down the middle.  As a relatively long player I can tell you that, from experience, my game benefits when I play new courses strategically (hybrids and irons off tees) rather than trying to blow through the course using my distance "advantage." And God help you of you are long, but crooked on those courses where water, waste areas and OB are prevalent.  Narrow fairways and penalty areas ARE the basis of course strategy; I am not sure how you can argue otherwise, but I am willing to listen to the argument.