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Bifurcation/Ball Roll Back Discussion


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6 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Like it was mentioned by a mod, this debate has been hashed out on here and wrx with him. It’s not worth the energy. 

As much as we try to keep up with lots else going on it can be tricky, so please if this line of thread continues please report the comment and we can move forward with appropriate actions to get things back on track.

⛳🛄 as of Nov 6, 2023 (Past WITB
Driver:  :callaway-small: Paradym TD w/ GD ADDI 6X Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: F7 3 wood 14.5* w/ Motore F1 Shaft

Irons:   :titleist-small: T Series - T200 5 Iron
                                          T150 6-9 Iron
                                          T100 PW/GW

Wedge:  :mizuno-small: S23 54,58 w/ KBS Tour Hi-Rev Blackout - TBD

Putter:  Screenshot 2023-06-02 13.10.30.png Mezz Max!

Balls:     Vice Pro Plus Drip (Blue/Orange)

 

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7 hours ago, TitleistMike said:

Players have no say other than joining LIV.

Players do NOT run PGA. Laughable to think they do. The players council has ALWAYS been a smoke and mirrors exposition.

Back to the main point....it is coming. And because Players will not be able to sway back and forth, the new criteria will be the universal criteria as all PGA events apply the MLR.

Once in place, non conforming balls will be called cheater balls.

“Non conforming” is a misnomer here. There will be two different levels of conformance. Both types of balls will be conforming to the rules as structured. 

Edited by LICC
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7 hours ago, Subdiver1 said:

"Strength training does little to increase distance on any given swing."  Are you FLIPPIN kidding me?!?!?!  Please provide your background in personal training and sports physiology including all of the studies and tests you have coordinated, designed, observed or read.  Let me help you: 

"The results of this study demonstrate that power is significantly correlated with CHS in PGA professional golfers, confirming previously established relationships observed in amateur golfers (Lewis, Adam L.1; Ward, Nick2; Bishop, Chris3; Maloney, Sean4; Turner, Anthony N.3. Determinants of Club Head Speed in PGA Professional Golfers. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 30(8):p 2266-2270, August 2016. | DOI: 10.1519/JSC.0000000000001362).  

Oh here is one from 2020, "Eight Weeks of Strength and Power Training Improves Club Head Speed in Collegiate Golfers," (Oranchuk DJ, Mannerberg JM, Robinson TL, Nelson MC. Eight Weeks of Strength and Power Training Improves Club Head Speed in Collegiate Golfers. J Strength Cond Res. 2020 Aug;34(8):2205-2213. doi: 10.1519/JSC.0000000000002505. PMID: 29461422).

But it isn't just brute strength that results in distance, flexibility and the ability to create tempo is HUGE.  The ability to FEEL the swing apex and TRANSITION fluidly will generate more speed than some muscle head who can bench 650 trying to muscle a driver on the range.  It is the same reason why a 4'2" 92lb woman can toss a 360lb man across the mats like a rag doll.  But I digress.  

Equipment has ABSOLUTELY improved.  Ball speed off a metal head (or carbon fiber) driver is definitely hotter than off a persimmon wood head.  Lighter materials and shafts lead to increased club head speed.  But all of that aside I can still outdrive a couch potato with a Stealth 2, G425 or a Ti4 using my 1980s Wilson 1200GE woods or out distance comparative iron shots using my 1980s Titleist blades because of my level of fitness, which contributes to club head speed AND the ability to consistently generate that speed comfortably for a full round.  Kind of like an unfit guy still being able to run 4 second 40, but not being able to hold under 15 minutes for a full mile and a fit guy only being able to run a 6 second 40, but maintain under 6 minutes for the full mile or more.  Fitness = Performance.  Equipment only enhances fitness.  And if I had the flexibility I had before back surgery I'd blow it by you with a 4-year old's plastic kiddie club.

Need more examples of fitness over equipment?  From 1979 - 1985 Jack Nicklaus averaged from 264 to 269 yards off the tee.  What equipment advantage did he have over the other players???  NONE!  He played basketball, baseball and tennis in high school throughout his childhood and school years.  He had strength and athleticism that other players didn't at the time.  According to IBM recorded driving distance data at 11 PGA Tour events in 1968 the top 10 players averaged 270.2 yards, the average was 264.0 yards and Nicklaus led the Tour at 276.0 yards.   Fred Couples was a linebacker, he averaged 268 yards in 1982.  Davis Love III holds the second longest officially recorded drive in competitive play history, 476 yards at the 2004 Mercedes Championships (now the Hyundai ToC) at Kapalua. He drive was 39 yards short of the 515 yard record set by Mike Austin's in 1974.  1974!!!!!  NOT 2014, NOT 2024, 1974!  So, if the equipment is the problem why hasn't somebody beaten a record from 1974???  Sure, those guys would most likely be hitting the ball longer with today's equipment than they were then.  BUT, they were longer than the other guys and would STILL BE longer than the other guys.  So changing the equipment for everyone does NOTHING to bring the big guys down to our level.  If anything it handicaps the recreational player ever further because the advancements in technology that have led to improved clubbed speed, consistency of shaft flex and performance, improved ball speed and quality control benefit them; it doesn't penalize them.  And giving a beat up old Salt a bit of equipment to help him/her off-set all the wear and tear sure helps across the board, taking it away only penalizes all of us.  If they want to halt potential progress in distance to where it is, then do the testing using current balls and the new swing speed criteria and set the requirements right where the X-Y axes cross today.  That saves all of us recreational golfers from having to pay for manufacturers trying to figure out regression.  It saves all of us from having to return to the drawing board to figure out how far X, Y, and Z clubs are carrying and trying to figure out how to carry the pond on a 185 yard par 3.  It saves the problem of competitive amateurs having to figure out what ball they will be allowed to play at what tournaments and what the resultant club choices will have to, maybe, be.

I am going to try to put the ball factor to some level of rest by doing a "field test" tomorrow comparing my OLD 1980 model Titlest blades to my current P790 irons, 3 thru PW.  I'll post the comparative iron specs and results using current model range balls and a Swing Caddie SC300.

"Strength training does little to increase distance on any given swing."  You kill me dude. 

Just about everything you posted here is irrelevant to the point and quite misapplied. 
 

The moderator has asked to move on from this discussion. You can go back to early pages of this thread and read all the commentary on this point and learn more about it. Let’s respect the moderators wishes and move on. 

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8 hours ago, TitleistMike said:

Players have no say other than joining LIV.

Players do NOT run PGA. Laughable to think they do. The players council has ALWAYS been a smoke and mirrors exposition.

Back to the main point....it is coming. And because Players will not be able to sway back and forth, the new criteria will be the universal criteria as all PGA events apply the MLR.

Once in place, non conforming balls will be called cheater balls.

The PGA is a member organization so yes they have the power and as you mention LIV being there where they don’t have to adopt the change could be a draw for more players which isn’t what the PGA tour wants. This ball change just isn’t a change in the ball for the players, it’s a change in their whole bag to make sure they are optimizing their bag just like they have now. Professionals don’t like change. It’s why they play the same shafts over and over regardless of the model of club they have. It’s why Spieth and others take longer to change models of clubs, it’s why rory and morikawa are switching back to older models.
 

Again there is no guarantee it’s coming and even if it does it doesn’t mean it will be at the proposed testing criteria. That’s what the comment period is for. until that’s over and a decision is made nobody knows what the final decision will be. It could easily be a decision to make no changes at all and leave the ball where it’s at.
 

The PGA tour is professional golf entertainment. If the fans aren’t entertained they won’t be watching. Will the PGA adopt it out of necessity because the events around the majors will have less big names that’s possible just so they can avoid losing viewership and money at the gate. 
 

There is no such thing as non confirming balls because it’s a MLR so only events or tours that opt to use it will be required to use it whereas for the rest of the golfing public can still use then current ball. 
 

edit: what’s the financial incentive for the ball manufacturers to make the ball? 

if they don’t make the ball what will the usga and R&A do? They can’t make the ball companies produce a ball that optional to use? The PGA tour, elite level amateur events can’t make them make a ball. 
 

There’s no financial reason to invest r&d money into finding a ball because it’s still the review period so they need to know the final specs to test to.

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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I found the information in the tweet linked below very interesting.   I am assuming the data is accurate;  it is publically available so there is not a reason to doubt.  

As has been noted, there are periods where equipment technology increased distance and where imposed limitations slowed the increase but since 2015 distance has been trending up again

There is a chart that shows average clubhead speed really hasn't changed much since 2007 and a chart that shows carry has increased by about 20 yards since 2007.  Maybe fitness isn't as much in play as I would have thought.  

This makes you question where the increase is coming from???

  • equipment (ball and driver) has limitations in place. 
  • Strokes gained metrics started gaining traction in roughly 2015 creating a change in strategy for most players.  Driver versus laying back to a distance. 
  • How many holes is driver distance measured?  Has the shotlink era changed this from 2 holes to every hole and we not get more accurate data than when there was just a downwind and upwind hole where players maybe didn't play driver?
  • With clubhead speed and equipment staying roughly the same same 2007, how are player hitting the balls significantly farther?  PGA level players don't miss the center of the face by much so I don't personally think it is attributable to off center forgiveness.  My guess would be the increased usage of launch monitors to optimize equipment,  launch, and spin conditions.     In my opinion, the new ball would result in a flatlining of distance growth,  but with technology, players will replace equipment to optimize launch conditions and we will get back to seeing increases in distance.  

 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:  SPG-ROUND-FAT-LOGO-No-Bkgnd.png 

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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41 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I found the information in the tweet linked below very interesting.   I am assuming the data is accurate;  it is publically available so there is not a reason to doubt.  

As has been noted, there are periods where equipment technology increased distance and where imposed limitations slowed the increase but since 2015 distance has been trending up again

There is a chart that shows average clubhead speed really hasn't changed much since 2007 and a chart that shows carry has increased by about 20 yards since 2007.  Maybe fitness isn't as much in play as I would have thought.  

This makes you question where the increase is coming from???

  • equipment (ball and driver) has limitations in place. 
  • Strokes gained metrics started gaining traction in roughly 2015 creating a change in strategy for most players.  Driver versus laying back to a distance. 
  • How many holes is driver distance measured?  Has the shotlink era changed this from 2 holes to every hole and we not get more accurate data than when there was just a downwind and upwind hole where players maybe didn't play driver?
  • With clubhead speed and equipment staying roughly the same same 2007, how are player hitting the balls significantly farther?  PGA level players don't miss the center of the face by much so I don't personally think it is attributable to off center forgiveness.  My guess would be the increased usage of launch monitors to optimize equipment,  launch, and spin conditions.     In my opinion, the new ball would result in a flatlining of distance growth,  but with technology, players will replace equipment to optimize launch conditions and we will get back to seeing increases in distance.  

 

Equipment hasn’t been the same since 2007. The advances have slowed but they have still happened. Shaft technology, more forgiving driver heads, etc. 

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On 3/17/2023 at 11:00 AM, LICC said:

Bifurcation is already part of golf. Recreational players don't use the same tee boxes at anywhere near the lengths of the courses that pros play. 

Well, usually that is the case (see my comment above about playing the black tees in my tournament on Thursday).  Also, in my last two rounds at Bethpage Black, we played from the tips (same tees used for the 2002 and 2009 U. S. Opens).

Driver: Callaway Paradym X, 10.5* with HZRDUS Black Gen 4 6.0 shaft

4-Wood: Titleist TS2, 15.75* loft, 42.5” long, Miyazaki Kuala Mizu 7-S

Utility wood: Callaway Apex UW, 19*, Mitsubishi MMT 70-S

Hybrid: Sub 70 939X 4-hyb. (21*) with Project X Black 80-S

7-Wood (when I carry one): VERY OLD Callaway Epic 7-wood (20*) with ACCRA Tour-Z 85-S

Irons: Callaway Paradym set (5-PW) HZRDUS Gen 4 Silver75-S shafts

Wedges: Cobra Snakebite 50* with Recoil 95, Ping Glide 2.0 54* & 58* with Nippon NS Pro 115-S shafts

Putter:  Makefield VS mallet (all black, including shaft), 34", 67* lie angle (custom-fitted at Makefield Putters Fitting Center)

Ball: Maxfli Tour X (2023 model) 

Spoiler

driver / off the tee is no longer a weakness for me!

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Has anyone ever realized how many members come out of the woodwork for topics like this? Why do we only see engaged discussion on something that we have zero control over and is usually polarizing?!? ENGAGE MORE! Well some comments from certain members also indicates they should post less 🤣🤣🤣🤣

I like golf. You should like golf. If life is tough, play more golf!

Callaway Paradym Triple Diamond 10.5, ProjectX HZRDUS Smoke Black

Titleist TSi2 18 Degree Hybrid, Project X HZRDUS Smoke Black RDX Hexcel

Takomo 301CB's, KBS Tours S

Vokey SM8 48 10F, 52 08F, 56 08M, 60 08M

Odyssey Stroke Lab 2 Ball 10 

Nike VR Tour Staff Bag

Titleist Pro V1x and Vice Pro Plus

 

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2 minutes ago, TylorJudd said:

Has anyone ever realized how many members come out of the woodwork for topics like this? Why do we only see engaged discussion on something that we have zero control over and is usually polarizing?!? ENGAGE MORE! Well some comments from certain members also indicates they should post less 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Hopefully we see some who got involved in this thread find other threads that interest them. 

Controversial topics always bring added comments and members. LIV, Distance Debate and more. 

Same goes for when member testing starts then you will really see many come out of the woodworks! 

 

⛳🛄 as of Nov 6, 2023 (Past WITB
Driver:  :callaway-small: Paradym TD w/ GD ADDI 6X Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: F7 3 wood 14.5* w/ Motore F1 Shaft

Irons:   :titleist-small: T Series - T200 5 Iron
                                          T150 6-9 Iron
                                          T100 PW/GW

Wedge:  :mizuno-small: S23 54,58 w/ KBS Tour Hi-Rev Blackout - TBD

Putter:  Screenshot 2023-06-02 13.10.30.png Mezz Max!

Balls:     Vice Pro Plus Drip (Blue/Orange)

 

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33 minutes ago, LICC said:

Equipment hasn’t been the same since 2007. The advances have slowed but they have still happened. Shaft technology, more forgiving driver heads, etc. 

Yes,  you have said that about 1000+ times in this thread.  I didn't say there haven't been advances but there have been limitations imposed and it has stayed roughly the same.   I don't believe more forgiving heads have had much influence in pro distance since they mostly hit the center of the face and there are limitations on trampoline effect so that doesn't show ball speed increases with same driver speed.   Shaft have changed to help pros optimize launch and spins conditions to maximize distance;  this will continue even with the new balls. With these new shafts driver speed remained the same.   So yes,  I supported your position that it isn't player fitness but equipment as well as  better understanding of desired launch characteristics, player strategy, and more data capture by the tours  that has lead to the faster uptick since 2015.  You even acknowledged that the advances have slowed but the distance numbers have increased as a faster rate so it can't just be equipment. 

7 minutes ago, TylorJudd said:

Has anyone ever realized how many members come out of the woodwork for topics like this? Why do we only see engaged discussion on something that we have zero control over and is usually polarizing?!? ENGAGE MORE! Well some comments from certain members also indicates they should post less 🤣🤣🤣🤣

It is tied to the daily emails that highlight threads and this one was highlighted a few days ago.  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:  SPG-ROUND-FAT-LOGO-No-Bkgnd.png 

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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12 hours ago, Subdiver1 said:

using my 1980s Wilson 1200GE woods

Cool. That was my second set of woods. How in the heck do you still have them? Good on you.

Driver: Callaway Epic 9 degree, stiff (set at 10 degrees with the movable weight in the center}

FW: Callaway Epic 3,5, heaven wood w/ regular shaft (driver shaft in 3 wood, 3 wood shaft in 5 wood, 5 wood shaft in heaven wood, all three set at neutral plus 1 degree)

Hybrids: Callaway BB19 4,6,7 (4 set at neutral plus 1 degree and 6 and 7 set at neutral minus 1 degree for gapping purposes)

Irons: Callaway Rogue ST Max 8, 9, PW 

Wedges: Titleist Vokey SM6 50,54,58

Ball: Titleist Pro V1, 1X, Vice Pro Plus or anything I find that day and try out for the fun of it (I haven't bought balls with my own money in at least 10 years)

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Hasn’t golf been through enough with Liv now the distance stuff..  USGA  has a few majors a year they are not The PGA 0r for the 99 percent of golfers who play for the sake of playing..Enough of this.. let’s just play. Rolling back the distance the ball travels is silly.. 

2BFD20D8-10CA-4333-99FB-9047D5B3176E.gif

New PXG Xcore ..irons and 0311 XF driver…

 

 

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1 hour ago, funkyjudge said:

Well, usually that is the case (see my comment above about playing the black tees in my tournament on Thursday).  Also, in my last two rounds at Bethpage Black, we played from the tips (same tees used for the 2002 and 2009 U. S. Opens).

The blue tees at the Black are not the tee boxes used for the majors. Most of those tee boxes are generally not even maintained well except for those tournaments. I’ve played the Black countless times and have never once seen anyone use those tee boxes. 

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52 minutes ago, Beakbryce said:

Cool. That was my second set of woods. How in the heck do you still have them? Good on you.

The short answer it that when I got to my 2nd or 3rd duty station I picked them up during a visit back home so I could start playing again while living in San Diego and have just never gotten rid of them.  I played them through high school along with those 1980 Titleist Tour blades and I didn't have a lot of spare funds back in those days so I played with what I had and they have just followed me through the years.  

I picked up some knockoff metals in the late 90s and played an Orlimar Trimetal; still have that one floating around as well.  I did upgrade my driver to a 975D at some point, then picked up a Ping Rapture that I gamed until a few years ago.  I've toyed with taking the 1200s and the blades out for a round to see what it is like to play them again.  I am actually going to the range later today to compare the blades to my current iron numbers.  I play with a group of guys once a month where we play a different format and try to change up locations/courses.  I was toying around with trying to get everyone to play one of our matches with pre-2000 equipment just to see how that goes.  I think it would be fun.  The problem would be the logistics of everyone having or obtaining, or wanting to obtain, such relics just for one outing. 

Anyway, short answer, because I have a bunch of crap in my garage/storage that I haven't gotten around to getting rid of because I'd rather be out playing than sorting through "stuff" and trying ti figure out what I should keep and what I need to get rid of LOL!

  • Driver - Ping G400 9°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 65 gr. 
  • FW - TM M3 3-wood 15°, Project-X HZRDUS Red 6.0 75 gr. mid-spin
  • Hybrid - TM M4 19°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 85 gr. HY 
  • Irons - TM P790, 3-PW, Oban CT-115, PXG 311 P Gen 6
  • Wedges - Mizuno T20 Ion blue 52/9 & 56/14, N.S. Pro Modus3 S-flex
  • Putter - Evnroll ER2 Garsen Max grip
  • Getting a grip - oversize Winn DryTacs and Bionic gloves
  • Ball - ProV1, AVX, Maxfli Tour, PXG
  • Bag(s)/cart - Vessel Player III Rovic RV1S and Alphard V2

 

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5 hours ago, LICC said:

Just about everything you posted here is irrelevant to the point and quite misapplied. 
 

The moderator has asked to move on from this discussion. You can go back to early pages of this thread and read all the commentary on this point and learn more about it. Let’s respect the moderators wishes and move on. 

Are you kidding me?!?  

Irrelevant and misapplied?  YOU stated that "strength training does little to increase distance on any given swing."  Which is part and parcel of the new testing criteria (120MPH to 127MPH) and is an elemental part of the argument that is being made to "roll back" golf ball design.  So, the specific point cannot be "irrelevant" in response or as part of the thread.  The response and evidence CANNOT be "misapplied" because it DIRECTLY applies to your false assertion that one does not affect the other.  Your choice to not like facts don't make them any less relevant or applicable.

How about grow up and respond, "Wow. I didn't know that. I may not agree, but thanks I learned something today.  Going back to the ball itself..."

But in light of and in response:

A. PLEASE report ME to the moderator for responding to your statement by providing you with PEER REVIEWED STUDIES which provide data which directly contradicts your silly assertion; AND which also DIRECTLY correlate to point of the topic, in that this bifurcating MLR doesn't close any gap among players. 

B. YOU are the one who posted the statement, to which a response was provided with real objective evidence and data vs. subjective opinion.

C.  The only "moderator response" I've seen in the recent thread statements referred to a comment about Bryson.  But by all means PLEASE report ME to the moderator for RESPONDING to your absurd assertion.  I already moved on from this facet after sending you facts hoping it would help you because, well, because it is moot since the peer reviewed studies already solved that argument.  I'm good having passionate discussion on any topic and fielding disagreement because hearing differing points of view is how we open our minds and learn.  But when it comes to this kind of exchange hey, I'd love to have a conversation with one of the poor moderators who gets stuck having to go read all of this because a you got schooled and it drove you to come back with, "I'm going to tell my mommy."  😭

Worry not, regardless of anything direction from a moderator to cease and desist, I'll refrain from bothering to provide facts, contradicting or supporting, any future statement, in an effort to prevent them being "misapplied and irrelevant" to your feelings.  Good day sir.

  • Driver - Ping G400 9°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 65 gr. 
  • FW - TM M3 3-wood 15°, Project-X HZRDUS Red 6.0 75 gr. mid-spin
  • Hybrid - TM M4 19°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 85 gr. HY 
  • Irons - TM P790, 3-PW, Oban CT-115, PXG 311 P Gen 6
  • Wedges - Mizuno T20 Ion blue 52/9 & 56/14, N.S. Pro Modus3 S-flex
  • Putter - Evnroll ER2 Garsen Max grip
  • Getting a grip - oversize Winn DryTacs and Bionic gloves
  • Ball - ProV1, AVX, Maxfli Tour, PXG
  • Bag(s)/cart - Vessel Player III Rovic RV1S and Alphard V2

 

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17 minutes ago, Subdiver1 said:

The short answer it that when I got to my 2nd or 3rd duty station I picked them up during a visit back home so I could start playing again while living in San Diego and have just never gotten rid of them.  I played them through high school along with those 1980 Titleist Tour blades and I didn't have a lot of spare funds back in those days so I played with what I had and they have just followed me through the years.  

I picked up some knockoff metals in the late 90s and played an Orlimar Trimetal; still have that one floating around as well.  I did upgrade my driver to a 975D at some point, then picked up a Ping Rapture that I gamed until a few years ago.  I've toyed with taking the 1200s and the blades out for a round to see what it is like to play them again.  I am actually going to the range later today to compare the blades to my current iron numbers.  I play with a group of guys once a month where we play a different format and try to change up locations/courses.  I was toying around with trying to get everyone to play one of our matches with pre-2000 equipment just to see how that goes.  I think it would be fun.  The problem would be the logistics of everyone having or obtaining, or wanting to obtain, such relics just for one outing. 

Anyway, short answer, because I have a bunch of crap in my garage/storage that I haven't gotten around to getting rid of because I'd rather be out playing than sorting through "stuff" and trying ti figure out what I should keep and what I need to get rid of LOL!

 I would be interested to see how you feel about hitting them now. I would think the swing weight, shaft lengths, and general feel would be a lot different than modern clubs. They will probably be shorter with a club to club comparison due to shaft length. But still fun I would imagine.

Driver: Callaway Epic 9 degree, stiff (set at 10 degrees with the movable weight in the center}

FW: Callaway Epic 3,5, heaven wood w/ regular shaft (driver shaft in 3 wood, 3 wood shaft in 5 wood, 5 wood shaft in heaven wood, all three set at neutral plus 1 degree)

Hybrids: Callaway BB19 4,6,7 (4 set at neutral plus 1 degree and 6 and 7 set at neutral minus 1 degree for gapping purposes)

Irons: Callaway Rogue ST Max 8, 9, PW 

Wedges: Titleist Vokey SM6 50,54,58

Ball: Titleist Pro V1, 1X, Vice Pro Plus or anything I find that day and try out for the fun of it (I haven't bought balls with my own money in at least 10 years)

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11 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

As much as we try to keep up with lots else going on it can be tricky, so please if this line of thread continues please report the comment and we can move forward with appropriate actions to get things back on track.

I think free form discussion, aside from any direct threat of harm or name calling, is good debate.  The funny thing about getting a group discussion going is that group think is driven by the fear of being told, your thought doesn't matter.  In direct, in person, communication we need group norms to prevent group think, in forums like this lack of a response will, or should, cut irrelevant threads off form the main topic; or the relevant tributaries that flow from it.  If moderators start shutting down free form thinking and bringing out points that may not be directly relevant, but might lead to another relevant thought path, they create and echo chamber suppress open discussion.  Realistically, we could say that anything here is "irrelevant" because the likelihood that anything any of us writes has an impact on the decision is probably less than .01%.  

If we were to conduct a true root cause analysis (RCA) and come up with an honest solution we would have to include equipment design progression (ball and club components), fitness training, course conditions, and many other facets of the game and players that ave been discussed here.  Cutting off one particular line of thought or discussion arbitrarily could prevent a relevant line being drawn between to other subject points.  E.g. The strength training = club head speed = balls speed = distance.  Solutions?  Prevent strength training?  Limit shaft length? Control club weight? Control club face design? Control ball design? Require course layout to only play INTO the prevailing winds? Require course design to have uphill slope in target driving ranges to limit roll out?  Some of these "solutions" sound ridiculous, but are not less ridiculous to many of us than having two, or more, different ball designs for different regions or play.  I agree some of them are ABSIOLUTELY ridiculous, but free thinking and getting silly ideas out there lead to discussion of possible solutions that might not be thought of or expressed if someone didn't hear the silly idea or think that they would be shut down for expressing a silly idea "just because."  In industry many innovations and solutions have come to fruition BECAUSE of silly ideas that started the "Why not?" thought pattern and discussion.

So, we don't need to have threats and name calling.  We don't need to discuss Bryson per se because people just can't see past liking him or not liking him, whatever.  But what is accomplished by shutting down a discussion that will just Peter out when the steam fades after no one responds anymore?

  • Driver - Ping G400 9°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 65 gr. 
  • FW - TM M3 3-wood 15°, Project-X HZRDUS Red 6.0 75 gr. mid-spin
  • Hybrid - TM M4 19°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 85 gr. HY 
  • Irons - TM P790, 3-PW, Oban CT-115, PXG 311 P Gen 6
  • Wedges - Mizuno T20 Ion blue 52/9 & 56/14, N.S. Pro Modus3 S-flex
  • Putter - Evnroll ER2 Garsen Max grip
  • Getting a grip - oversize Winn DryTacs and Bionic gloves
  • Ball - ProV1, AVX, Maxfli Tour, PXG
  • Bag(s)/cart - Vessel Player III Rovic RV1S and Alphard V2

 

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

The blue tees at the Black are not the tee boxes used for the majors. Most of those tee boxes are generally not even maintained well except for those tournaments. I’ve played the Black countless times and have never once seen anyone use those tee boxes. 

I didn’t play the blue tees at Bethpage Black! I played the black tees both times.  They were immaculately maintained, except for the tee boxes on hole #10 and on #14 where there was a temporary tee box because maintenance was going on.

These were tournament rounds and it was known in advance that we would be playing the Black Course from the tips, so any golfers who ware unable or unwilling to play from those tees (about 7,400 yards, if I recall correctly) could opt not to pay the registration fee and enter these events.

Edited by funkyjudge

Driver: Callaway Paradym X, 10.5* with HZRDUS Black Gen 4 6.0 shaft

4-Wood: Titleist TS2, 15.75* loft, 42.5” long, Miyazaki Kuala Mizu 7-S

Utility wood: Callaway Apex UW, 19*, Mitsubishi MMT 70-S

Hybrid: Sub 70 939X 4-hyb. (21*) with Project X Black 80-S

7-Wood (when I carry one): VERY OLD Callaway Epic 7-wood (20*) with ACCRA Tour-Z 85-S

Irons: Callaway Paradym set (5-PW) HZRDUS Gen 4 Silver75-S shafts

Wedges: Cobra Snakebite 50* with Recoil 95, Ping Glide 2.0 54* & 58* with Nippon NS Pro 115-S shafts

Putter:  Makefield VS mallet (all black, including shaft), 34", 67* lie angle (custom-fitted at Makefield Putters Fitting Center)

Ball: Maxfli Tour X (2023 model) 

Spoiler

driver / off the tee is no longer a weakness for me!

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2 minutes ago, Subdiver1 said:

I think free form discussion, aside from any direct threat of harm or name calling, is good debate.  The funny thing about getting a group discussion going is that group think is driven by the fear of being told, your thought doesn't matter.  In direct, in person, communication we need group norms to prevent group think, in forums like this lack of a response will, or should, cut irrelevant threads off form the main topic; or the relevant tributaries that flow from it.  If moderators start shutting down free form thinking and bringing out points that may not be directly relevant, but might lead to another relevant thought path, they create and echo chamber suppress open discussion.  Realistically, we could say that anything here is "irrelevant" because the likelihood that anything any of us writes has an impact on the decision is probably less than .01%.  

If we were to conduct a true root cause analysis (RCA) and come up with an honest solution we would have to include equipment design progression (ball and club components), fitness training, course conditions, and many other facets of the game and players that ave been discussed here.  Cutting off one particular line of thought or discussion arbitrarily could prevent a relevant line being drawn between to other subject points.  E.g. The strength training = club head speed = balls speed = distance.  Solutions?  Prevent strength training?  Limit shaft length? Control club weight? Control club face design? Control ball design? Require course layout to only play INTO the prevailing winds? Require course design to have uphill slope in target driving ranges to limit roll out?  Some of these "solutions" sound ridiculous, but are not less ridiculous to many of us than having two, or more, different ball designs for different regions or play.  I agree some of them are ABSIOLUTELY ridiculous, but free thinking and getting silly ideas out there lead to discussion of possible solutions that might not be thought of or expressed if someone didn't hear the silly idea or think that they would be shut down for expressing a silly idea "just because."  In industry many innovations and solutions have come to fruition BECAUSE of silly ideas that started the "Why not?" thought pattern and discussion.

So, we don't need to have threats and name calling.  We don't need to discuss Bryson per se because people just can't see past liking him or not liking him, whatever.  But what is accomplished by shutting down a discussion that will just Peter out when the steam fades after no one responds anymore?

Where did I say anything about shutting down this discussion? 

The reason for my comment is we have had (still do) a thread on the distance debate and fitness in relation which got heated and where warnings had to be handed out. This while a valuable conversation is for another thread and our goal is to not mute or stop members from commenting, but to ensure that this thread  remains mostly on point. 

If members want to have the fitness debate, go for it, but it can go in if own thread. 

Pretty sure we are pretty lenient here with discussions and don't make efforts to control or dictate opinions one way or another.

⛳🛄 as of Nov 6, 2023 (Past WITB
Driver:  :callaway-small: Paradym TD w/ GD ADDI 6X Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: F7 3 wood 14.5* w/ Motore F1 Shaft

Irons:   :titleist-small: T Series - T200 5 Iron
                                          T150 6-9 Iron
                                          T100 PW/GW

Wedge:  :mizuno-small: S23 54,58 w/ KBS Tour Hi-Rev Blackout - TBD

Putter:  Screenshot 2023-06-02 13.10.30.png Mezz Max!

Balls:     Vice Pro Plus Drip (Blue/Orange)

 

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

The blue tees at the Black are not the tee boxes used for the majors. Most of those tee boxes are generally not even maintained well except for those tournaments. I’ve played the Black countless times and have never once seen anyone use those tee boxes. 

Do you think that I am an idiot or so naive that I would think that blue tees are tournament tees ANYWHERE?  I have played competitive golf for more than 35 years, although it is getting very frustrating the last few years as my handicap has ballooned from single digits to the mid-teens.

Driver: Callaway Paradym X, 10.5* with HZRDUS Black Gen 4 6.0 shaft

4-Wood: Titleist TS2, 15.75* loft, 42.5” long, Miyazaki Kuala Mizu 7-S

Utility wood: Callaway Apex UW, 19*, Mitsubishi MMT 70-S

Hybrid: Sub 70 939X 4-hyb. (21*) with Project X Black 80-S

7-Wood (when I carry one): VERY OLD Callaway Epic 7-wood (20*) with ACCRA Tour-Z 85-S

Irons: Callaway Paradym set (5-PW) HZRDUS Gen 4 Silver75-S shafts

Wedges: Cobra Snakebite 50* with Recoil 95, Ping Glide 2.0 54* & 58* with Nippon NS Pro 115-S shafts

Putter:  Makefield VS mallet (all black, including shaft), 34", 67* lie angle (custom-fitted at Makefield Putters Fitting Center)

Ball: Maxfli Tour X (2023 model) 

Spoiler

driver / off the tee is no longer a weakness for me!

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