Bifurcation/Ball Roll Back Discussion

[sixcat]

16 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

This would make the usga look like the elite douches everyone thinks they are.

I also don’t think they would go that route over a MLR. But again if they did they would look bad.

The PGA tour could then turnaround and say that the FedEx cup points for the US Open will ne reduced and that the tour will no longer recognize the us open as a major. 

The PGA Tour doesn’t dictate or decide what defines a major. Which is why they don’t have one!

[cnosil]

10 minutes ago, Subdiver1 said:

I find it interesting that you hit GI irons longer than PD or Tour (muscle back) type.  If loft and spin disparity are pared down or cancelled out by shaft adjustments do you think the same would hold true?  I get that certain heads (clubs) are going to be more "skinny" than others to there is only so much one can do with shaft changes, but that is the benefit we have with today's technology.

Thanks. 

Yep,  My dispersion with GI irons is also a lot bigger than with Players irons.   Today, one of the clubs I was hitting was the Srixon ZX-4 and I compared it to the TM P7MB.  Different lofts and neither was optimized for me,  but the TM was so much better.    I don't think shaft will do much;  you'd have to level out the lofts to even anything out.    You seem to think it is odd that GI go farther. 

[mardukes]

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The more amateur events that decide to adopt it will cause a trickle down effect. Ajga is rumored to be onboard so that’s huge. Just like the pros aren’t going to want to bounce between balls depending on where they are playing the juniors and elite amateurs aren’t going to want to do the same.

So we are looking at the big picture of the effects of the decision compared to those thinking it’s only going to be a pro tour thing.

if the ball manufacturers decide to make a ball it’s going to be expensive at retail initially because lack of demand, once that switches to juniors and elite amateurs needing it then they will produce more and the price will come down. At that point they will have to look at the feasibility of making the current ball and it’s very likely they will reduce production and the costs will go up as more are buying the mlr ball.

 

While it is certain that the only brand of the new ball will be Titleist, let's not neglect to mention how it will cause sea levels to rise and wash away Torrey Pines.

[Subdiver1]

2 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Yep,  My dispersion with GI irons is also a lot bigger than with Players irons.   Today, one of the clubs I was hitting was the Srixon ZX-4 and I compared it to the TM P7MB.  Different lofts and neither was optimized for me,  but the TM was so much better.    I don't think shaft will do much;  you'd have to level out the lofts to even anything out.    You seem to think it is odd that GI go farther. 

I figured dispersion, in general is better (again in general/for most people) with GI irons. Otherwise why play them.  As far as distance, I have always been a bit longer with player/tour irons.  For whatever reason I recall discussion that you gave up a bit (potential power) to gain a bit (forgiveness) which is where the Players Distance irons came into bridge the gap between Players (tour) and GI (forgiveness) irons.  As I recall from "back in the day" the benefit of a forged tour iron was that when you were on the screws GI irons couldn't keep up, but that was the trade off; if you weren't on the screws you lost a few yards and spin etc.  Maybe that has changed.  I tried to keep an open mind the last couple of times I went to play around and had fittings done.  GI irons never seem to workout so on one hand I was glad I haven't lost so much of my game that I need to move over to a GI iron, but if I had seen better dispersion and relatively equal distance I was open to at least considering it. 

You touch on one of the funny things about all of this, that no matter how many shaft options there are, some clubs still won't work for some of us.  One would almost want to believe that with 42,657 different shafts out there, somebody would be able to make X club work for anyone; that just isn't the case.  I wish the ZX5s and 7s had been around when I got fitted last time.  I hit the ZX7 a while back and man did they feel good.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

49 minutes ago, mardukes said:

While it is certain that the only brand of the new ball will be Titleist, let's not neglect to mention how it will cause sea levels to rise and wash away Torrey Pines.

How do you get to the only brand of the ball will be titlest?

Titleist already and out against the proposal. Plus there are players under contract to TM, Srixon and Callaway, they aren’t going to allow a staff member out of a contract to play a competitors ball nor are they going to risk losing money in ball sales if it became retail available 

[TOMBALL 72]

RATHER THAN change the ball just limit the length of golf tees and further limit the length of driver shafts to 43 1/2 inches . those 2 easy changes at little cost will have the same result .

 

Edited March 21 by TOMBALL 72

[TOMBALL 72]

CORRECTION 43 1/2 INCH or 44  DRIVER SHAFTS

Edited March 21 by TOMBALL 72

[jlb1023]

Just read excerpts from Rory's interview with No Laying Up, linked in the latest newsletter from MGS.  I'm not a big fan of Rory, that is for a different day, but I actually found his argument FOR the change, to be rather compelling.  The article is definitely worth a read whether you agree with him or not.  I was firmly in the "shortening of the shaft" camp prior to reading his thoughts but am now reconsidering my stance.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 minute ago, jlb1023 said:

Just read excerpts from Rory's interview with No Laying Up, linked in the latest newsletter from MGS.  I'm not a big fan of Rory, that is for a different day, but I actually found his argument FOR the change, to be rather compelling.  The article is definitely worth a read whether you agree with him or not.  I was firmly in the "shortening of the shaft" camp prior to reading his thoughts but am now reconsidering my stance.  

Rory can be a walking contradiction at times.

he just switched to an older model driver because it has a hotter face and better distance than he turns around and says he supports the rollback because it will benefit him.

Rory I think many times means good and wants to be open and honest when he talks but imo he needs to talk less on most issues

[jlb1023]

Just now, RickyBobby_PR said:

Rory can be a walking contradiction at times.

he just switched to an older model driver because it has a hotter face and better distance than he turns around and says he supports the rollback because it will benefit him.

Rory I think many times means good and wants to be open and honest when he talks but imo he needs to talk less on most issues

I agree that he should talk less but his reasons for supporting the the change, besides the selfish ones, are legit, or at least worth considering.  I certainly was not aware that tennis did the exact same thing, slowed the ball for the mens game.  Not apples to apples, I know, but the reasoning was similar.  Again, I'm not a proponent necessarily, but I'm more open to it than I was an hour ago.

[GolfSpy BOS]

Have not caught up on this discussion so sorry if it's been asked already.  I was listening to the NLU podcast on the way in here (thanks for the tip @GolfSpy_APH) where they talked to Mike Whan.  I found it interesting that he spent a lot of time talking about keeping courses from needing to be longer, and about a 10-15 year window where distance will be scaled back, but he ultimately thinks we will get back to where we are today in the future even with the MLR ball.  

My question is if is approved... is the PGA tour all of a sudden going to play tournaments at 85% of the tee lengths they are playing now?  That would seem to support the notion that they're thinking about courses and sustainability... but if they keep playing on these lengthened courses I don't see what the point is.  If course builders want these events and build courses to suit the PGA length then we need to see them playing shorter course setups along with the MLR ball which in theory will mean nothing actually happens to the pro game.  Pro's will hit it to the same spot they do today, just from a more forward tee location.  (I realize that the approach shot from that spot will effectively play longer too).

[sixcat]

56 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

he just switched to an older model driver because it has a hotter face and better distance 

Well, this just isn't even remotely true!!!

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/mar/09/rory-mcilroy-laments-change-of-driver-golf-poor-start-at-players-championship

 

Excerpt from the linked article. 

McIlroy said: “I went to that new driver in Riviera, and it’s just not … look, I wish I could use my driver from last year but I can’t just because if you use a driver for so long, basically it just wouldn’t pass the test. The more a club is used, the more it’s hit, the more springy the face becomes. These driver heads are so finicky, it’s hard to get one exactly the same. I’m obviously trying my best, trying to get something that’s as close to what I had last year. I have just struggled a little bit off the tee the last couple weeks.”

 

Understanding his old driver would likely fail the COR test done by the PGA Tour, he started trying to find a replacement and hasn't been able to find anything that suits him.

[sixcat]

The No Laying Up article mentioned above. The addition of Kevin Van Valkenburg to the NLU team is paying enormous dividends!!!

https://nolayingup.com/blog/mcilroy-supports-governing-bodies-distance-proposal

 

 

[chisag]

1 hour ago, jlb1023 said:

I agree that he should talk less but his reasons for supporting the the change, besides the selfish ones, are legit, or at least worth considering.

... Hard too argue with any of this from Rory, especially the statement in bold print:


“I’ve been pretty adamant that I don’t really want the governing bodies to touch the recreational golfer because we need to make this game as not intimidating and as much fun as possible, just to try to keep the participation levels at an all-time high,” he said.

“So, I’m glad in this new proposal that they haven’t touched the recreational golfer. But for elite level play, I really like it. I really do. I know that’s a really unpopular opinion amongst my peers, but I think it’s going to help identify who the best players are a bit easier.”

“I think you’re going to see people with more well-rounded games succeed easier than what the game has become, which is a bit bomb and gouge over these last few years.”

“Selfishly, I think it helps me. I think this is only going to help the better player. You know, it might help the longer player, too, in some ways. But I think it’s going to help the overall professional game.

“I think making guys hit some long irons again, and some mid irons, and being able to hit every club in your bag in a round of golf. I can’t remember the last time when I’ve had to do that. I don’t know if this change in the ball will make us do that, but it certainly is a step closer to that.”

“I was once of the opinion that, you know, they don’t try to make Formula 1 cars go slower. Innovation is a part of every sport. It’s a part of every industry. But whenever that innovation outgrows the footprint of the game, that’s when I think we have a problem.”

[RickyBobby_PR]

33 minutes ago, sixcat said:

Well, this just isn't even remotely true!!!

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/mar/09/rory-mcilroy-laments-change-of-driver-golf-poor-start-at-players-championship

 

Excerpt from the linked article. 

McIlroy said: “I went to that new driver in Riviera, and it’s just not … look, I wish I could use my driver from last year but I can’t just because if you use a driver for so long, basically it just wouldn’t pass the test. The more a club is used, the more it’s hit, the more springy the face becomes. These driver heads are so finicky, it’s hard to get one exactly the same. I’m obviously trying my best, trying to get something that’s as close to what I had last year. I have just struggled a little bit off the tee the last couple weeks.”

 

Understanding his old driver would likely fail the COR test done by the PGA Tour, he started trying to find a replacement and hasn't been able to find anything that suits him.

Right he switched to the latest model because the old one was too hot. The new model wasn’t working out for him so he switched back to the previous model with a new head so that it passed the test 

[sixcat]

5 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Right he switched to the latest model because the old one was too hot. The new model wasn’t working out for him so he switched back to the previous model with a new head so that it passed the test 

Still not accurate. 

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/report-rory-mcilroy-drove-beautifully-on-augusta-national-visit-after-equipment-change

 

First paragraph excerpt!

"Per The Golf Channel’s Todd Lewis, McIlroy is said to have driven the ball “beautifully” during the two rounds last week following the reported change where he apparently used a shorter driver shaft while retaining his TaylorMade Stealth 2 head."

 

Collin Morikawa went to a previous TM driver. Rory has been trying to find a TM Stealth 2 head that is similar in performance to the one he used for the past year. Which he felt was getting to the point of not passing COR testing by the PGA Tour. Not because of lost distance but lost accuracy. 

Excerpt from the first article I linked.

“These driver heads are so finicky, it’s hard to get one exactly the same. I’m obviously trying my best, trying to get something that’s as close to what I had last year. I have just struggled a little bit off the tee the last couple weeks.”

[LICC]

On 3/20/2023 at 5:13 PM, Subdiver1 said:

Take 2 guys, one an athlete and the other, not so much, and give the not so much guy a set of new clubs and the fitness guy these 1980 irons and what do you think will come of it?

Irrelevant to the discussion. 

I posted much earlier a person who tested different versions of the same brand driver from different eras. Same person, different clubs. Every newer model club resulted in more distance than the older models. It's predominantly the equipment advances that have led to the gains in distance.

[Stuka44]

My only fear is if it does become cost ineffective for ball makers to continue to make "pro" balls, and "recreational" balls is this.  Does anyone think that current players, who for whatever their reason, are playing courses from distances that they shouldn't be, and should be playing shorter even with today's balls, and equipment, are going to realize that the easiest way to offset the shorter ball will be to move up a tee box, and not swing harder, have more bad shots, and play even slower.  I don't think so.

[TR1PTIK]

23 hours ago, GolfSpy_BOS said:

My question is if is approved... is the PGA tour all of a sudden going to play tournaments at 85% of the tee lengths they are playing now?

I'm currently listening to the podcast and Mike Whan addressed this by saying that this MLR is intended to more or less lock-in distance where it is even if it doesn't look like that. I don't think we'll see any change in the tees that are used on Tour, in the majors, or even in elite amateur events. The intent is to take distance away in the short term so as to slow the inevitable creep in distance we'll likely see over the coming decades and get the players to utilize more/different skills by requiring them to hit longer clubs into greens. The sustainability portion comes into play when you look at the next generation of players.

 

I will say, I think NLU and Mike Whan have successfully changed my opinion on bifurcation and the new proposed MLR. All you have to do is look at guys like Wilco Nienbar and James Hart Du Preez to see what the future of golf could look like. Tall, muscular, athletes who simply crush it. I'm sure the argument against them will be "What tournaments have they won?..." and my answer to that is, "It doesn't matter." There will be players in the future who match the length of guys like Nienbar and Du Preez while also having great skill in the remaining areas of the game. These guys won't be long because they spent months in the gym and packed on weight (to their own detriment) like DeChambeau did, these guys will be naturally gifted with height, long arms, and athleticism. They won't suffer the way Bryson did and they'll learn how to fill in the gaps.

I'll also add that when I think about the increasing distance of elite players, matters of sustainability, and the long-term future of golf, I see a lot of simulator golf. I'd very much like to see golf evolve in a way where simulators and virtual golf are not the only options. I want the game to succeed and continue to be played outdoors in a manner that is accessible to all. I could easily see things in the US become just like we see Japan and Korea where most golf is "played" in a simulator or at a driving range and golf courses are reserved only for those with deep pockets.

[MaxEntropy]

I don't know that I have a strong opinion on the proposal either way - I can see the arguments from both sides and think both have their merits.

I assume it has been brought up, but I haven't stayed totally up-to-date on this discussion. My biggest concern is the net effect on the price of a dozen balls for me. I don't see how the OEM's can recover the R&D costs associated with making balls for pros (never mind there may be more than one compliant version per manufacturer). Who is going to absorb that? My fear is that it will get passed down to us.