Planned 2030 Golf Ball Rollback

[PMookie]

I haven’t heard any specifics on the rollback, but if I’m on the Tour Board for players I’m arguing that there need to be different balls allowed across the gamut of players based-on their last three years of distance numbers. Zach Johnson and others like him have always been shorter hitters than the big boys on Tour, with a rollback and no adjustment for each player allowed, they will continue to be short knockers and at a disadvantage. If it isn’t already stated, allow a “max distance” so that individuals can find balls that take them right up to that max so everyone is truly on the same level playing field. When Zach and DJ hit it the same distance then we will see who the best OVERALL golfers are week-in and week-out.

Funny, I started this thread 2 years ago and it’s finally come to fruition. Crazy.

[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, PMookie said:

individuals can find balls that take them right up to that max so everyone is truly on the same level playing field. When Zach and DJ hit it the same distance then we will see who the best OVERALL golfers are week-in and week-out.

I disagree, distance is one of many skills that differentiate players.  Longer hitters deserve some level of advantage over shorter hitters, just as better putters have an advantage over poorer putters, better iron players have an advantage, better tacticians, better green-readers, etc.  

[BigBoiGolf]

Vote for me for the USGA, a hot dog at every turn with my "Wieners for Winners" program, and I'll get your doctor's permission before touching your golf balls.

[RickyBobby_PR]

30 minutes ago, PMookie said:

I haven’t heard any specifics on the rollback, but if I’m on the Tour Board for players I’m arguing that there need to be different balls allowed across the gamut of players based-on their last three years of distance numbers. Zach Johnson and others like him have always been shorter hitters than the big boys on Tour, with a rollback and no adjustment for each player allowed, they will continue to be short knockers and at a disadvantage. If it isn’t already stated, allow a “max distance” so that individuals can find balls that take them right up to that max so everyone is truly on the same level playing field. When Zach and DJ hit it the same distance then we will see who the best OVERALL golfers are week-in and week-out.

Funny, I started this thread 2 years ago and it’s finally come to fruition. Crazy.

There will never be equality of distance. Leverages, abilities, training routines, will cause differences between fast and slow players. Learning to gain speed is a skill. 
 

With that said we are seeing a lot more parity in distance. Theres a large group of players that are at or slightly above 300 in average distance and not many in the 315+ range. There are guys like Finau in the low 300s who have more in the tank but don’t choose to use it because the risk isn’t worth the reward 

[Hook DeLoft]

1 hour ago, FrogginBullfish said:

Not looking to start anything, but something to consider is the changes in loft of clubs from 40 or 50 years ago. 40-50 years ago a 5 iron had the same loft as a 7 iron does today. So it's a hard apples to apples comparison to make.

Yep.  Today a 6 iron is a long iron for the pros.

[GolfSpy SAM]

Just a reminder that not only did Titleist come out with an official response, but their original video from back in March can still be seen here:
 

 

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

Just now, GolfSpy SAM said:

Just a reminder that not only did Titleist come out with an official response, but their original video from back in March can still be seen here:
 

 

Sky rockets from 14 views to 14,000

[GolfSpy SAM]

1 minute ago, Lacassem said:

Sky rockets from 14 views to 14,000

I mean...I'm not UNproud of the video, and feel like that might be fair

 

[PMookie]

46 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

There will never be equality of distance. Leverages, abilities, training routines, will cause differences between fast and slow players. Learning to gain speed is a skill. 
 

With that said we are seeing a lot more parity in distance. Theres a large group of players that are at or slightly above 300 in average distance and not many in the 315+ range. There are guys like Finau in the low 300s who have more in the tank but don’t choose to use it because the risk isn’t worth the reward 

Yep, that’s a given, just saying all should have the same OPPORTUNITY to hit to a max distance. If all just play the exact same ball then the distance disparity will remain, but if DJ has to play a “more rolled back” ball vs what Zach would then there’s equal opportunity…

[PMookie]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I disagree, distance is one of many skills that differentiate players.  Longer hitters deserve some level of advantage over shorter hitters, just as better putters have an advantage over poorer putters, better iron players have an advantage, better tacticians, better green-readers, etc.  

Then using that reasoning to me a rollback is silly… If it’s not for the purpose of equaling the playing field then it’s a waste. The goal, in my opinion, should be to narrow the gaps of this supposed distance issue so the complete golfers come to the fore. The PGA has said numerous times that there’s a “distance problem”, ok, not for short hitters there isn’t, which we all agree with. Anyway, just my thoughts. Let Zach play a normal ball, make DJ play a rolled back ball and go from there.

Edited December 7, 2023 by PMookie

[Rob Person]

Maybe I missed it, but is this going to be implemented on DP world tour players as well? LiV? Other pro tours around the world?

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, PMookie said:

If it’s not for the purpose of equaling the playing field then it’s a waste

Its not, and never has been presented that way.

[cnosil]

12 minutes ago, Rob Person said:

Maybe I missed it, but is this going to be implemented on DP world tour players as well? LiV? Other pro tours around the world?

It is a USGA and R&A rule.  Typically all tours follow the rules as defined by those organizations.   Technically they are free to follow or not follow the rules at their discretion.  

[cnosil]

16 minutes ago, PMookie said:

Then using that reasoning to me a rollback is silly… If it’s not for the purpose of equaling the playing field then it’s a waste. The goal, in my opinion, should be to narrow the gaps of this supposed distance issue so the complete golfers come to the fore.

Should better iron players or better putters have restrictions placed on them?  All players have the ability to work on their game and improve their skills!  Why not just draw lines on the fairway and if you hit past the lines you get a penalty stroke and have to move the ball behind the line?  

[GolfSpy SAM]

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere in the 65 other pages here, lol, but if they're so concerned with distance as an issue, keep the ball exactly the same and then force players to use a small tee.  Way lower launch, way shorter drives. Problem solved, and the tees can be regulated way easier than the ball can. 

Part of this feels like they're trying to solve a problem that no one else is asking for a solution to.  

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, PMookie said:

Then using that reasoning to me a rollback is silly… If it’s not for the purpose of equaling the playing field then it’s a waste.

It's not intended to equal distance among the playing field.  It's an attempt to get those damn 11 yards back from the entire field... which is largely driven by <10% of the field.  I mean rather than have ZJ and DJ use different balls, just let ZJ play from the forward tee.  

You know, the more we discuss this topic, the clearer just how ridiculous their entire argument is.

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy SAM said:

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere in the 65 other pages here, lol, but if they're so concerned with distance as an issue, keep the ball exactly the same and then force players to use a small tee.  Way lower launch, way shorter drives. Problem solved, and the tees can be regulated way easier than the ball can. 

Part of this feels like they're trying to solve a problem that no one else is asking for a solution to.  

Yes Sam, it's been mentioned a number of times... but it's always great hearing logic repeated .  

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

Should better iron players or better putters have restrictions placed on them?  All players have the ability to work on their game and improve their skills!  Why not just draw lines on the fairway and if you hit past the lines you get a penalty stroke and have to move the ball behind the line?  

Jeebus, don't give these clowns any ideas .

[storm319]

4 hours ago, MattWillGolf said:

As more details emerge and the debate continues, I’m leaning towards bifurcation as the practical solution for the game. I understand the manufacturers are against it, which is a big reason why the players are against it. I listened the Fire Pit Collective podcast and Matt Ginella raised a point that resonated with me. The ruling bodies are reacting to such a small subset of golf in an effort to restrict those who are paid to play golf (minority of golfers) will penalize those who pay to play golf (majority of golfers). While I think this change will have little to no effect on my game there are some who will be impacted unfairly. A suggestion that was made during the podcast that I liked was in the Majors at least use a restricted ball as specified my the Majors. In baseball and football for example, the league provides the ball. (Well, ok maybe Tom Brady was the exception ) St. Andrews, Augusta National and many of the classic venues for Majors are being neutered by the distance gains. Bifurcation exists in baseball with the change from aluminum to wooden bats. Rory made an excellent point that the equipment he plays is already different than what we play.

You are misunderstanding bifurcation in this context. Tour issued equipment is still subject to the same regulations as retail equipment. Bifurcation would mean different regulations for different levels of play which would be a mess to navigate for future talent trying to ascend to the pro level (and potentially a financial roadblock if the OEMs don’t make it readily available at retail). 

Interactive team sports like baseball, basketball, football, or soccer where the ball is provided is not an apples to apples comparison because those sports have direct interaction between players where golf as an individual sport does not (it is just the player vs the course). As for bat materials in MLB, that is more about traditional aesthetics (mainly the sound) than performance as it is possible to make composite bats that perform similarly to wood from a COR perspective. 

[Muckinfiddle]

4 hours ago, MGoBlue100 said:

They’re only “in power” b/c we allow them to be. Why do they get to be the sole arbiter of what’s in the best interest of the game? Because THEY say so? Uh-uh. That’s a “No” from me dawg…

I don't think that we should just let them make these decisions for us.

We should put pressure on the PGA and USGA and the R&A. We're the ones with the money spending it on golf we need to talk with our money.

I think we should push with our wallets. I'm seriously considering not buying my USGA handicap this year and using my golf shot handicap and telling my pro to deal with it. I don't care if I play any events in my club I can still be in my group using the handicap that I have set.

1 hour ago, GolfSpy SAM said:

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere in the 65 other pages here, lol, but if they're so concerned with distance as an issue, keep the ball exactly the same and then force players to use a small tee.  Way lower launch, way shorter drives. Problem solved, and the tees can be regulated way easier than the ball can. 

Part of this feels like they're trying to solve a problem that no one else is asking for a solution to.  

It doesn't matter The drivers will be just lofted higher.

 

I mean how much more disconnected can the USGA be? Every advertisement in golf when it comes to drivers is based around distance. No one goes to a pro shop and ask for a driver that hits 20 yd shorter than other competitors... All our clubs are used primarily to maintain distance and consistency. Genuine amateurs, which is anyone pretty much from a zero handicap to 36 aren't distance problems regardless of how far they hit the golf ball. They're not forcing golf courses to build t-boxes for them.

We need to write letters, speak with our wallets, boycott watching the US Open and whatever else can help the cause. Those of you that are passive and not competitive enough to be bothered by losing the distance your accustomed to fine. Accept people making these decisions for you. The more things you're passive about the more things they will take away because you won't do anything to stop it. Sounds familiar doesn't it...

One more thing, stop comparing Major league baseball to golf. They've never had metal bat in the MLB so there's never really been an official bifurcation other than not allowing them in the first place.

[mackdaddy]

I am back. 

Well, I keep reading about just moving up to a closer tee.

So millions of golfers have to move up a tee box to enjoy the game?  Why???

Why are the elites of the overseeing bodies of golf making the masses move forward to enjoy the game.  The simple fact of the matter is golfers over 60 have already lost that many yards and moved forward.  What do the older golfers do that have moved forward and have no more boxes to go forward? 

The majority of golfers are 55 and above. 

The millions of average golfers have to pay the penalty. Just so the old country clubs with the uber rich memberships will be able to host Major tournaments.  They just need to feel better about themselves.  God forbid their beloved clubs not host a Major or be embarrassed by the pros overpowering their beloved courses making them look easy.  

Millions of golfers don't matter if they have to lose the joy of hitting a great drive from the men's tees.  Our dignity be damned, we can move forward...  

I can't believe that we have to eat crap so the elite clubs, that we can never play get to feel better about themselves!

Let me guess all the members of the ruling bodies 

are members of one or more elite country club.  

I can enjoy golf with a shorter ball for about 12 more years then I will need 100 shots to get around the course and about 5 1/2 hour.  You will have to wait behind me.  

I am a well off older conservative.  I can afford to join any club in the country.  I am not a liberal bellyacher.

I don't understand why the majority of golfers need to be penalized for the Elite Golf Class?

We need to speak up and just say NO!

[vandyland]

20 minutes ago, Mackey said:

We need to speak up and just say NO!

It remains to be seen but it seems like the way the ball is going to be designed (and again, this is like 7 years away for Ams so the ball manufacturers will get better at it as they always have) the impact will be less on slower swing speeds. So while they are estimating 10-15 yds at the top level for drivers, they are estimating less for LPGA and high level ams (7-10 yds) and then even less for slower swingers probably 5 yds or less. And that is with driver. With a mid iron it is probably like 2 yds. If true, we have spent 66 pages arguing over 5 yds give or take with the driver. 

 

[mackdaddy]

3 minutes ago, vandyland said:

It remains to be seen but it seems like the way the ball is going to be designed (and again, this is like 7 years away for Ams so the ball manufacturers will get better at it as they always have) the impact will be less on slower swing speeds. So while they are estimating 10-15 yds at the top level for drivers, they are estimating less for LPGA and high level ams (7-10 yds) and then even less for slower swingers probably 5 yds or less. And that is with driver. With a mid iron it is probably like 2 yds. If true, we have spent 66 pages arguing over 5 yds give or take with the driver. 

 

No of that is the point!  The point is Why must the mass of golfers be penalized for the less than 1% of golfers that hit the ball a mile.  The Elites have lost touch.  I don't care where they play their tournament...

[Javs]

I have been thinking on this a little bit as we played today in 25 mph winds with firm greens. First, it really doesn’t matter what any of us think. The governing bodies and the tours will make their rules. Then you either play by them or you don’t. Same thing as moving the ball or taking liberal drops. The rules and conforming equipment are what they are, period. Yes at almost 62 I can still move the ball. I can hit the occasional 300 yard drive and probably average 285. Why is the question. Why can this old guy that was combat wounded and had multiple surgeries still move the ball. One because I still workout religiously. Two, because I also stretch daily. Then I think we tend to eat better than those that went before us.Even when I was in the military we had human performance trainers that worked on our fitness and health. Now stay with me, take a 20 or 30 something professional that has an entire team. Best equipment and fitting, best fitness if they put in the time and best nutrition. Of course they will bomb the ball! The question is does the game evolve with the players or do the governing bodies try to make us all dinosaurs. If a 60 year old today is longer of course a prime professional athlete will be longer. However, who cares? Let players enjoy playing and scoring. The bottom line is you still need to score. I think they are trying to protect something that doesn’t need protected. We don’t use hickory sticks anymore. Grow the game make it fun. Let the best play. They still only give the trophy to the best each week. Personally I would rather see a Major with the winner at 12 under and playing great than a player just surviving and winning at 3 under. Ok done with my rant!

[GolfSpy SAM]

1 hour ago, Muckinfiddle said:

It doesn't matter The drivers will be just lofted higher.

But...and this is a genuine question, but wouldn't more loft = less distance?  Isn't that the whole crux of their argument, that they're making a lot of these courses obsolete with the distance they're getting off the tee?  

Lower the tee, raise the loft, lower the distance, now they have an 8-iron instead of a 9/PW, etc.  

I think we're arguing two sides of the same coin here, ultimately, but I think making the ball go "less far" isn't the answer when there are easier alternatives on the table.

[GolfSpy_APH]

https://shockdgolfballs.com/

What about this? The harder you hit a golf ball the louder the sound it makes, deterring someone from hitting it too hard for the pain and just sheer angst of having to hear that awful noise? Slower swings produce normal sounds or less harsh sounds and therefore more appealing. Soon everyone will be swinging like Els! 

[Fred Mitchell]

24 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

https://shockdgolfballs.com/

What about this? The harder you hit a golf ball the louder the sound it makes, deterring someone from hitting it too hard for the pain and just sheer angst of having to hear that awful noise? Slower swings produce normal sounds or less harsh sounds and therefore more appealing. Soon everyone will be swinging like Els! 

Not being a smart ass but seriously have you ever met a redneck? People that have never worked out or practiced in their life will become machines so they can make the most noise.

[fixyurdivot]

25 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

https://shockdgolfballs.com/

What about this? The harder you hit a golf ball the louder the sound it makes, deterring someone from hitting it too hard for the pain and just sheer angst of having to hear that awful noise? Slower swings produce normal sounds or less harsh sounds and therefore more appealing. Soon everyone will be swinging like Els! 

That's great.  Never heard or seen these before.  But, I suspect the intended purpose would have the opposite result and everyone will be swinging like this.  Everyone digs the long ball and if it can be really noisy too, all the better.

 

[MattWillGolf]

2 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Jeebus, don't give these clowns any ideas .

On the Fried Eggs Golf Podcast the they interviewed Mike Whan and Thomas Pagel from the USGA. They commented that they looked at clubs but it was too problematic. They feared the driver would lead to 3 woods, then hybrids etc. They don’t want to go down that road.

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 hours ago, PMookie said:

Yep, that’s a given, just saying all should have the same OPPORTUNITY to hit to a max distance. If all just play the exact same ball then the distance disparity will remain, but if DJ has to play a “more rolled back” ball vs what Zach would then there’s equal opportunity…

Everyone has an equal opportunity to win. It’s not about equal opportunity to hit the same distance. No different than any other sport. Not everyone has the ability to hit 30+ home runs, steal 50 bases, throw 95+ mph in baseball, not everyone has the ability to run a 4.3 40 yard dash, throw the ball with the same way as QBs, kick the ball.

Each person has to find their way to excel.

There is a reason that there are different  balls with different launch and spin designs. The player has to find the equipment including ball that suits them.

 

4 hours ago, PMookie said:

Then using that reasoning to me a rollback is silly… If it’s not for the purpose of equaling the playing field then it’s a waste. The goal, in my opinion, should be to narrow the gaps of this supposed distance issue so the complete golfers come to the fore. The PGA has said numerous times that there’s a “distance problem”, ok, not for short hitters there isn’t, which we all agree with. Anyway, just my thoughts. Let Zach play a normal ball, make DJ play a rolled back ball and go from there.

The rollback per the ruling bodies is because the ball goes to far and according to them it’s gotten out of control so they need to bring it back some. It’s not possible to only impact fast swings while not affecting slightly slower or severely slower swings. 
 

They don’t like seeing balls land and roll 30-40 or more yards. They don’t like seeing guys carry bunker and other obstacles. They want it so that nobody can or very few can.

Yes this rollback makes it even harder on the shorter hitter. Your guys that are 275-290 off the tee are going to slowly find their way off tour and the guys that can stay at and above 300 will be the ones on tour and you will end up with a tour field that all carries obstacles. The guys in the current 300 range have speed in reserve.

This is exactly why Rory wanted a roll back. As he said it benefits the longer hitter. The longer hitter can get a mid/long iron on a par 4 while the short guy is hitting hybrids and woods. The long guy gets the advantage on par 5 ala tiger in his prime.