Planned 2030 Golf Ball Rollback

[BIG STU]

11 hours ago, StrokerAce said:

...this is like having a discussion with my dog. 

we could cut and paste this entire thread into golfwrx and it would be right at home. 

here, though, it is completely out of place.

I'm out.... good luck Chris!

I noticed all of what you posted above--- I had read through all of this out of boredom this morning and had to check twice to make sure I was not on WRX--- Yep your 3rd line I completely agree with--- And to be honest one of the reasons I did not comment is because I do not have the stats to comment on anything--- And to be honest without sounding like a smart a$$ or anything I could care less what the USGA or the PGA Tour does it does not in any shape or form affect the way I am going to play. Regular PGA 90% of the time bores me anyhow I would rather watch the Champions Tour or the LPGA. 

[BIG STU]

11 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s the same person that was saying the same thing on that forum 

Yep that is why I posted what I posted above to Ace

[fixyurdivot]

Hoping to change the trajectory of this thread.  So what exactly do we think they'll bifurcate?  Can they get to their target with only a ball change?  That would seem the least messy option. Does anyone know what the "target" is?   

[cnosil]

Hoping to change the trajectory of this thread.  So what exactly do we think they'll bifurcate?  Can they get to their target with only a ball change?  That would seem the least messy option. Does anyone know what the "target" is?   

In my mind that is the bigger question. I have heard distance is a problem and we need to scale it back. But no one really defines how far back. I hear to restore course to how they were originally played and where hazards and back in landing zones. Courses evolve and have changed over the years. Are we going back to standard of the 1800s, 1920s, 60s, 90s, or something else all together. But all of this is in theory about the professional game with no changes to amateur play. But you now have to make whatever change you make mass produced so that amateurs, with professional aspirations, can learn to play with the pro Level equipment. Some have stated they want changes pushed to the college and USGA sanctioned events which essentially eliminates bifurcation except for the golfer who has no aspirations to play competitive golf.

All options really become messy if you look across the entire golf landscape.

[LeftyRM7]

Hoping to change the trajectory of this thread.  So what exactly do we think they'll bifurcate?  Can they get to their target with only a ball change?  That would seem the least messy option. Does anyone know what the "target" is?   

This, to me, is the core issue with this debate. They have no cohesive target or goal. We really don’t know what they’re trying to “fix”. The headline is always “distance problem” but there are so many moving parts to the debate. Are they worried about longer courses, longer hitters, longer equipment? Each aspect has its own set of issues and anything you change will effect everything else, and ultimately change the trajectory of professional golf. Like I said before, it feels like they don’t know what to do but feel pressure to do something, and that is a recipe for disaster.

Personally I don’t think any significant bifurcation will happen because the players and the OEMs will push back hard. Maybe some small tweaks to club specs if I had to guess.


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[THEZIPR23]

Until they separate the Tour from the entire game of golf they will have no direction. The problem is that the governing body implements rules for both. Bifurcation to me will extend the time it takes for AM's to become successful on tour. Amateur golf is HUGE now, compared to even 10-15 years ago. I mean they have a World ranking system for them. Yes it is a select few but how much did Hovland, Wolf and Morikawa make when they turned pro? That wouldn't happen in a bifurcated scenario. And anytime you make it harder to be successful it is a move in the wrong direction. So IMO that leaves a 2 options. 1) leave it alone and understand that the tour is a product and not golf, just like the MLB or NFL. 2) Roll the ball back to a level somewhere near where the ProV1 came out. I fall in favor of the second option. Not because I think there is a distance problem now but I do believe that in 1 more generation there will be. 

In all honesty if you woke up tomorrow and had to play a ball that went 10% less than yesterday would it change your love of the game? Would you play less? Would you get less enjoyment? 

[fixyurdivot]

54 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Until they separate the Tour from the entire game of golf they will have no direction. The problem is that the governing body implements rules for both. Bifurcation to me will extend the time it takes for AM's to become successful on tour. Amateur golf is HUGE now, compared to even 10-15 years ago. I mean they have a World ranking system for them. Yes it is a select few but how much did Hovland, Wolf and Morikawa make when they turned pro? That wouldn't happen in a bifurcated scenario. And anytime you make it harder to be successful it is a move in the wrong direction. So IMO that leaves a 2 options. 1) leave it alone and understand that the tour is a product and not golf, just like the MLB or NFL. 2) Roll the ball back to a level somewhere near where the ProV1 came out. I fall in favor of the second option. Not because I think there is a distance problem now but I do believe that in 1 more generation there will be. 

In all honesty if you woke up tomorrow and had to play a ball that went 10% less than yesterday would it change your love of the game? Would you play less? Would you get less enjoyment? 

Yes, it seems the ball is the logical, least messy option. I'm a little skeptical about how this would make it more difficult for amateurs to get into the pro's?  Are you coming from the perspective that suddenly switching to a ball that with X% less average distance would make it hard for them to adjust?  

[BIG STU]

2 hours ago, cnosil said:

In my mind that is the bigger question. I have heard distance is a problem and we need to scale it back. But no one really defines how far back. I hear to restore course to how they were originally played and where hazards and back in landing zones. Courses evolve and have changed over the years. Are we going back to standard of the 1800s, 1920s, 60s, 90s, or something else all together. But all of this is in theory about the professional game with no changes to amateur play. But you now have to make whatever change you make mass produced so that amateurs, with professional aspirations, can learn to play with the pro Level equipment. Some have stated they want changes pushed to the college and USGA sanctioned events which essentially eliminates bifurcation except for the golfer who has no aspirations to play competitive golf.

All options really become messy if you look across the entire golf landscape.

Pretty good post-- I will say one thing kinda tongue in cheek--- The golfers like me that are retired from competetive golf or do not give two hoots about stipulated events are basically in bifurcation anyhow because we play what equipment we want to and the rules we want to. I think I said this on WRX or maybe here but IMHO 85% of all people playing the game could give 2 hoots less what the USGA R&A or the PGA does for that matter they play how they want to and do not keep stipulated handicaps either. Now on the other side of the spectrum I can see the argument for college bound players maybe wanting to take a shot at the tour too. 

I think I may have stated this before about the ball rollback. In that case the ball manufacturers are going to lose money because the 85% me included are not going to pay good money for a ball that goes less distance. If they quit making balls to today's specs how many billions of balls are out there already used with today's specs. Now maybe if the PGA Tour supliments the manufacturers to build a "Tour Only" ball it may get done.

[THEZIPR23]

17 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Yes, it seems the ball is the logical, least messy option. I'm a little skeptical about how this would make it more difficult for amateurs to get into the pro's?  Are you coming from the perspective that suddenly switching to a ball that with X% less average distance would make it hard for them to adjust?  

Yes, adjusting will make it difficult and extend the learning curve. I think it was Weiskopf that said he switched to the bigger ball when he was still an AM because he knew he was going to go pro and wanted to get a head start on it. The difference now being that the Amateur game is a pseudo minor leagues at this point, where as previously it was just used to get tournament experience. If they push it down to the college level to allow them to adjust during that time then IMO it will get pushed to everyone and there is no bifurcation. It is not as simple as I am playing the pro ball so I am 1 club shorter. There are so many variables that would be affected by the change. Traj, spin, flight etc...

[LICC]

3 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Yes, adjusting will make it difficult and extend the learning curve. I think it was Weiskopf that said he switched to the bigger ball when he was still an AM because he knew he was going to go pro and wanted to get a head start on it. The difference now being that the Amateur game is a pseudo minor leagues at this point, where as previously it was just used to get tournament experience. If they push it down to the college level to allow them to adjust during that time then IMO it will get pushed to everyone and there is no bifurcation. It is not as simple as I am playing the pro ball so I am 1 club shorter. There are so many variables that would be affected by the change. Traj, spin, flight etc...

But if they bifurcate, other than the miniscule percentage of golfers who are trying to play on Tour, who cares? And it shouldn't be that difficult or time consuming to adjust. Everyone whom they are competing against to make the Tour would be in the same boat. Its similar to baseball players having to adjust to wooden bats. They just do it. 

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, THEZIPR23 said:

If they push it down to the college level to allow them to adjust during that time then IMO it will get pushed to everyone and there is no bifurcation.

That's an interesting angle I hadn't considered. 

[cnosil]

Its similar to baseball players having to adjust to wooden bats. They just do it. 

Not sure it is similar to baseball, but I never played seriously. Do baseball players try to hit the baseball a specific distance? Do they consciously stand in the box and think they want to only swing hard enough to hit the ball 147 feet?

Golfers calibrate distances and learn how to hit specific shots. As an example Sean Toulon relayed a story about getting Tiger Woods to try a putter. Tiger rolled a few putts handed the putter back and said nice putter but it rolls the ball too far. Different equipment will require golfers to relearn how far they hit the ball with specific swings. If anyone who does not follow the new rules would either have to relearn their game or never utilize the “amateur” equipment. Yes players can relearn their game; not sure a serious player will want to do that.

Not saying it can’t be done or if it is right or wrong, but bifurcation impacts the entire golf landscape not just down to the level where you implement the new rules.

[LICC]

10 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

Not sure it is similar to baseball, but I never played seriously. Do baseball players try to hit the baseball a specific distance? Do they consciously stand in the box and think they want to only swing hard enough to hit the ball 147 feet?

Golfers calibrate distances and learn how to hit specific shots. As an example Sean Toulon relayed a story about getting Tiger Woods to try a putter. Tiger rolled a few putts handed the putter back and said nice putter but it rolls the ball too far. Different equipment will require golfers to relearn how far they hit the ball with specific swings. If anyone who does not follow the new rules would either have to relearn their game or never utilize the “amateur” equipment. Yes players can relearn their game; not sure a serious player will want to do that.

Not saying it can’t be done or if it is right or wrong, but bifurcation impacts the entire golf landscape not just down to the level where you implement the new rules.

 

PItchers will throw to certain spots, especially inside pitches, that are more effective if the hitter has a wooden bat. And hitters would have to adjust how to get the sweet spot of the bat on those pitches in a better way with a wooden bat as compared to a metal bat.

Again, you are making a big deal of an issue that affects what, 10 or 20 players a year? How many players legitimately try to go pro each year? It is an extremely small percentage. And the pros change their equipment every few years anyway and make the adjustments. They would just have to hit a few hundred balls with the new equipment and their trackman devices and figure it out.

[RickyBobby_PR]

34 minutes ago, LICC said:

PItchers will throw to certain spots, especially inside pitches, that are more effective if the hitter has a wooden bat. And hitters would have to adjust how to get the sweet spot of the bat on those pitches in a better way with a wooden bat as compared to a metal bat.

Again, you are making a big deal of an issue that affects what, 10 or 20 players a year? How many players legitimately try to go pro each year? It is an extremely small percentage. And the pros change their equipment every few years anyway and make the adjustments. They would just have to hit a few hundred balls with the new equipment and their trackman devices and figure it out.

It affects every pro. The short hitters become shorter and will have to learn those new distances. There’s several indeed pros just between the pga and euro tour. Then you have hundreds more on the korn ferry tour, the challenge tour in Europe, the Asian tours, the sunshine tour in Africa, the pga Latin America tour.

there’s numerous other mini tours. Since it’s going to be a rules of golf change will it apply to the lpga and other women’s professional tours?

 

[cnosil]

Again, you are making a big deal of an issue that affects what, 10 or 20 players a year? How many players legitimately try to go pro each year? It is an extremely small percentage. And the pros change their equipment every few years anyway and make the adjustments. They would just have to hit a few hundred balls with the new equipment and their trackman devices and figure it out.

You think I am overestimating and I think you are underestimating.

I could say you are making a big deal about a perceived distance issue that impacts a small percentage of golfers.

[LICC]

21 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It affects every pro. The short hitters become shorter and will have to learn those new distances. There’s several indeed pros just between the pga and euro tour. Then you have hundreds more on the korn ferry tour, the challenge tour in Europe, the Asian tours, the sunshine tour in Africa, the pga Latin America tour.

there’s numerous other mini tours. Since it’s going to be a rules of golf change will it apply to the lpga and other women’s professional tours?

 

Of course it will affect every pro. That is the point, isn't it? @cnosil was talking about non-pros who are trying to be pros who would be affected by having to adjust. That number is even more relatively miniscule than the pros.

17 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

You think I am overestimating and I think you are underestimating.

I could say you are making a big deal about a perceived distance issue that impacts a small percentage of golfers.

 

It may affect a small number of golfers but it affects millions of golf fans who like to watch those golfers and their tournaments.

[cnosil]

22 minutes ago, LICC said:

It may affect a small number of golfers but it affects millions of golf fans who like to watch those golfers and their tournaments.

Show me the survey results that millions of golf fans want this change.

[TR1PTIK]

I'm honestly not sure why I'm still reading this thread. I'm surprised it's still going. It was a nice effort @fixyurdivot - while it lasted...

[LICC]

8 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Show me the survey results that millions of golf fans want this change.

As to whether distance is an issue in the sport, 17% of the “stakeholders” surveyed said it’s a major problem, while 31% called it a minor problem. And 36% said no problem, meaning 48% of respondents see it as some form of problem for the sport (Fig. 67).

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Show me the survey results that millions of golf fans want this change.

[LICC]

17 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Show me the survey results that millions of golf fans want this change.

Golf fans watching the elite/professional game enjoy variety of their “golf viewing product”, R28 - Global Stakeholders Perspectives: Fan Deep Dive. By and large, there is a low level of interest in the elite/professional game being dominated by any one element -- be it tee shots, long drives or putting.

Results of UK fans to "Imagine you are watching golf 20 years in the future, what would you like to see?" For "Shots traveling further on the course?" the response was: 1% in favor, 26% don't mind, and 73% would not like this. The report notes that US data is similar. 

This is all from the USGA and R&A Distance Insights Report.

[DaveP043]

I feel like I do this ever couple of days, but I'll repeat myself.  There's nothing new.  From the 2020 release of the Conclusions:

"It is not currently intended to consider revising the overall specifications in a way that would produce substantial reductions in hitting distances at all levels of the game."

From the February 2021 release"

" It would not consider revising the overall specifications to produce substantial reductions in hitting distances at all levels of the game"

Now they DO list a few of the specific things they will review, but there is really NOTHING NEW!  We've had 10 pages of talk, sparked by a rather alarmist "Bifurcation Coming!" thread title, but there's no reason to get all atwitter.

[RickyBobby_PR]

45 minutes ago, LICC said:

Of course it will affect every pro. That is the point, isn't it? @cnosil was talking about non-pros who are trying to be pros who would be affected by having to adjust. That number is even more relatively miniscule than the pros.

The ones turning pro around the world is still going to be upwards of thousands across the ones trying it on mini tours til they can get onto a tour that has some sort of arrangement with the pga or euro tour. 
 

[cnosil]

16 minutes ago, LICC said:

As to whether distance is an issue in the sport, 17% of the “stakeholders” surveyed said it’s a major problem, while 31% called it a minor problem. And 36% said no problem, meaning 48% of respondents see it as some form of problem for the sport (Fig. 67).

 

From the site you got the graphe: The USGA and R&A’s “online attitudinal survey” received 67,862 responses from 115 countries over two months and while I’d urge reading the report, a few numbers stood out.

You have a lot more to account for it you want the number to be in the millions. 

[LICC]

1 minute ago, cnosil said:

 

From the site you got the graphe: The USGA and R&A’s “online attitudinal survey” received 67,862 responses from 115 countries over two months and while I’d urge reading the report, a few numbers stood out.

You have a lot more to account for it you want the number to be in the millions. 

That is how surveys work. Conclusions about the views of millions are made based on a sample. 

[LICC]

9 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I feel like I do this ever couple of days, but I'll repeat myself.  There's nothing new.  From the 2020 release of the Conclusions:

"It is not currently intended to consider revising the overall specifications in a way that would produce substantial reductions in hitting distances at all levels of the game."

From the February 2021 release"

" It would not consider revising the overall specifications to produce substantial reductions in hitting distances at all levels of the game"

Now they DO list a few of the specific things they will review, but there is really NOTHING NEW!  We've had 10 pages of talk, sparked by a rather alarmist "Bifurcation Coming!" thread title, but there's no reason to get all atwitter.

The USGA and R&A announced a research proposal to cover the "potential use of a Local Rule that would specify the use of clubs and/or balls intended to result in shorter hitting distances. This would enable committees conducting competitions to stipulate whether such equipment should be used. It could be available at all levels of play and would also allow golfers playing outside of competition to choose for themselves."

You don't think this is a new development? Had they done this before?

[cnosil]

The USGA and R&A announced a research proposal to cover the "potential use of a Local Rule that would specify the use of clubs and/or balls intended to result in shorter hitting distances. This would enable committees conducting competitions to stipulate whether such equipment should be used. It could be available at all levels of play and would also allow golfers playing outside of competition to choose for themselves."
You don't think this is a new development? Had they done this before?

Local rules have been used for a long time. Two of the bigger ones are the tours one ball rule and use of distance measuring devices.

[cnosil]

That is how surveys work. Conclusions about the views of millions are made based on a sample. 

And those surveys aren’t always accurate and don’t necessarily state actual large scale opinions. Your statement should have said based on limited surveys about 1/3 of people think distance is a major problem.

[LICC]

6 minutes ago, cnosil said:

And those surveys aren’t always accurate and don’t necessarily state actual large scale opinions. Your statement should have said based on limited surveys about 1/3 of people think distance is a major problem.

A 67000 person survey is a relatively large one. Firms make multimillion dollar decisions based on smaller surveys. 

[LICC]

6 minutes ago, cnosil said:

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, LICC said:

The USGA and R&A announced a research proposal to cover the "potential use of a Local Rule that would specify the use of clubs and/or balls intended to result in shorter hitting distances. This would enable committees conducting competitions to stipulate whether such equipment should be used. It could be available at all levels of play and would also allow golfers playing outside of competition to choose for themselves."

You don't think this is a new development? Had they done this before?

That nearly identical wording appeared in the Conclusions to the Distance Insights Report just about 12 months ago.  I bet you could find a lengthy discussion about it starting then.  Its not new.

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2020/distance-insights/SOC-FINAL.pdf

Edited February 5, 2021 by DaveP043