Planned 2030 Golf Ball Rollback

[Preeway]

4 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

Again, what percentage of all golf played do you really believe that people are USING A HANDICAP FOR ANYTHING, during their weekend round.

I don’t always use my handicap as part of my round, but every round contributes toward my handicap. And yes, there are gimmes even when playing by the rules. It’s a part of match play only we use the phrase conceded. I’d venture tongues 1/4 - 1/3 of all my rounds involve conceding putts as part of our side competition games we are playing. 

[Stuka44]

11 minutes ago, Preeway said:

I don’t always use my handicap as part of my round, but every round contributes toward my handicap.

Yes I keep a "handicap" also on an unofficial site.  Something I have never used for anything, it is a reference for me.  I would submit the same question to you.    

What percentage of ALL GOLF PLAYED, involves people who are comparing handicaps to determine a winner after their weekend round, and strictly follow the rules.  I am saying that the rules of the game, realistically apply to,  i would say less than 7% of all people who play this game.   So the USGA & R&A are attempting to possibly rollback the enjoyment, of a game they do NOT OWN, and if you don't STRICTLY FOLLOW THE RULES OF THE GAME,  then you don't, and therefore don't really care about them.

So they are trying to speak for 93 % of the people who play the game, and don't CARE ABOUT THEIR RULES.  If not 7%, as I indicated, what percentage of all people actually follow their rules to the letter,  on an average summer weekend, at every public course across the country.  I actually think I may be a little high with 7%.

[Preeway]

Clearly, the only time every single letter of the rule book applies are at sanctioned tournaments. But even my Wednesday men’s league abides by all the rules with a few exceptions that are also allowed within the rule book. Terms like winter rules are in fact sanctioned by the rules. Now, as far as how many Average Joes hacking out rounds on Sunday in the low 100s follow every single rule? I’d be shocked if they even knew half of the rule book as a starter.  

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Stuka44 said:

 This is the point I am making.

I would be interested to know what percentage of ALL rounds that are played on a weekend across the country, by all golfers, involve people betting to the extent, that no gimme's,  are given, and the rules of the game are adhered to, without ANY EXCEPTION.  

I don't know about anyone else, so I won't make generalities like many on this thread have done.  With my pretty large group of friends, we almost always have a match of some kind, and we play in accordance with the Rules.  Yes, we concede putts in match play, which is specifically allowed in the Rules.  We play the ball down unless "winter rules" are in effect, we play the ball as it lies unless relief is allowed under the rules, we keep handicaps appropriately.  When I get paired with someone in a casual round, I don't care what they do, although many times I'll get asked about a Rule, and I'm happy to help people learn.  

I don't care that many people choose not to play strictly by the rules, or don't really know much about the rules, golf should be fun in whatever way you enjoy it.  But Rules make the game what it is, and someone has to be in charge of the Rules, or else we have anarchy.  Can you imagine trying to set up a friendly competition on the first tee, and trying to agree on every single rule that you'll follow?  

[ballhawk]

 

[NM01]

1 hour ago, Stuka44 said:

 This is the point I am making.

I would be interested to know what percentage of ALL rounds that are played on a weekend across the country, by all golfers, involve people betting to the extent, that no gimme's,  are given, and the rules of the game are adhered to, without ANY EXCEPTION.  

 

1 hour ago, Stuka44 said:

Again, what percentage of all golf played do you really believe that people are USING A HANDICAP FOR ANYTHING, during their weekend round.

I don’t know if anyone knows the percentage but I know in everyone round that I play with people where it’s for an official handicap round the rules are applied and gimmies only happen in formats where they are allowed. Within the large group I play with gimmies aren’t allowed because there are mini competitions for things like total putts as well as snakes so everything is putted out.
 

I don’t care what others do I play with in a random pairing but I play by the rules when paired with strangers as does everyone with a handicap that I know. 

 

[Silver Fawkes]

29 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I don't know about anyone else, so I won't make generalities like many on this thread have done.  With my pretty large group of friends, we almost always have a match of some kind, and we play in accordance with the Rules.  Yes, we concede putts in match play, which is specifically allowed in the Rules.  We play the ball down unless "winter rules" are in effect, we play the ball as it lies unless relief is allowed under the rules, we keep handicaps appropriately.  When I get paired with someone in a casual round, I don't care what they do, although many times I'll get asked about a Rule, and I'm happy to help people learn.  

I don't care that many people choose not to play strictly by the rules, or don't really know much about the rules, golf should be fun in whatever way you enjoy it.  But Rules make the game what it is, and someone has to be in charge of the Rules, or else we have anarchy.  Can you imagine trying to set up a friendly competition on the first tee, and trying to agree on every single rule that you'll follow?  

You're exactly right. I'd only add that context matters. There's some basic rules of golf that I would guess most golfers know such as what OB markers are and what that means, water hazard markers, etc., and then easy stuff like, in general, you hit your shot from where your ball comes to rest. When I play with my older in-laws and other family though we play preferred lies, we play gimmie putts, etc. Hell my mother-in-law will even twist up some grass into a little tee, but it's all for fun and who buys drinks at the bar after so it's not that serious. We still all play by the same rules. 

And playing by the same rules is what matters. I wouldn't use a fun game with my in-laws as a round I post on my GHIN, because I'm not playing by the strict rules of golf. For rounds I post I'm putting out every hole, using the correct relief rules, and applying all the other technical minutiae like you would in a tournament. Rules integrity is a key feature in golf because you often have to apply them yourself. There isn't a referee walking behind your every shot to call things for you. 

I do wonder how the ball change is going to be enforced so that everyone is playing by the same equipment rules. What happens to the billions of golf balls that are sold on the market in the next 6 years? Are they going to disappear? Are players gonna go rummaging through other players bags to make sure they're playing the shorter ball? Do we just assume everyone is playing with integrity? 

There's a lot of questions I don't have the answers for and it just seems like we're making an already difficult and confusing game even more difficult and confusing. 

[DaveP043]

11 minutes ago, Silver Fawkes said:

I do wonder how the ball change is going to be enforced so that everyone is playing by the same equipment rules.

Personal integrity will be the key, just as pretty much every other rule compliance issue.  Rules apply at all levels, and players who choose to play by the rules will do just that, to the best of their knowledge and ability.  

I don't know how things will shake out, but I'm certain golf will survive.  

[Subdiver1]

17 hours ago, Silver Fawkes said:

When you really dig into what they claim is their whole ideology behind the change it just DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

I think I'm actually more mad about their blatantly false messaging behind the decision than the decision itself.

I think you've hit a very hot nail right, dead center on the head here.

Don't urinate on my brain bucket and tell me it's atmospheric precipitation blurring my vision. That will take me from 0 thru light speed straight to Plaid in 0.002 seconds.

And once you have caught been lying...well, integrity is like virginity, once you've lost it you CANNOT get it back

[Subdiver1]

15 hours ago, chisag said:

So all the different positions skills rolled into one golfer makes it the most difficult sport in my book,

Very interesting comparison and analogy. I like it. Thanks.

[funkyjudge]

On 12/9/2023 at 9:35 AM, ballhawk said:

ROLLBACK!!!!...........I'LL GIVE YOU A ROLLBACK

…. and a bowl of soup with that rollback!

[Stuka44]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I don't know about anyone else, so I won't make generalities like many on this thread have done.

 

34 minutes ago, Silver Fawkes said:

And playing by the same rules is what matters.

 

43 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Within the large group I play with gimmies aren’t allowed because there are mini competitions for things like total putts as well as snakes so everything is putted out.

Why is everyone afraid to answer my question! We are all smart guys, can observe, and watch what is going on, and have played at a public course, and can make a reasonable guess, on what you think the number is.  I understand that perhaps in your individual groups, and circles, you all play by the rules, and that is what matters to you. 

My point is I believe these thoughts place you in the vast minority.  And for a weekend game rules, and a rollback of a well performing ball is NOT NECESSARY..  If you actually think that a vast majority of ALL players care then say so.  If not then I would ask that you refrain from using your belief that golf is somehow intrinsically harmed  by ALL players not following a set of rules.  This is just not factually correct!  It is an antiquated idea, that relics are clinging to, for a sense of superiority over others, by applying sanctioned competition rules to non competition play.

I want someone to find out who produces the softball we used in a summer  community softball tournament.   It was literally a "rubber ball"(like you once could buy at a drug store or K-Mart) the size of a softball, wrapped in leather like a real softball(it goes nowhere, and is basically a sponge).   They need to stop producing it.  We should be banned from playing with anything but a hard softball, and risk someone taking a line drive to the face, and being injured, in order to have fun playing anything that resembles, the official rules of baseball.

The argument that the RULES, and not the PEOPLE are what make the NON COMPETITION, ,  game is superiority based.  Golf will survive, but I hope in my lifetime to see the end of the R&A, and USGA, and less so the PGA for being the snobby, elitist, condescending, we know what's best for you thinking, IDIOTS they are.

Have to keep saying it!   "You will kneel before Zod!   It is NOT about what is best for the game, IT IS ABOUT POWER, AND SUPERIORITY! 

[Subdiver1]

19 hours ago, Silver Fawkes said:

swinging clubs with a cigarette in their mouth and hitting the clubhouse after 18 for a steak and donut sandwich.

I don't care who you are, THAT was funny

@Silver Fawkes very nicely articulated sir.

[DaveP043]

8 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

Golf will survive, but I hope in my lifetime to see the end of the R&A, and USGA, and less so the PGA for being the snobby, elitist, condescending, we know what's best for you thinking, IDIOTS they are.

Who do you propose should work to develop and revise rules?  You haven't answered that question, what you seem to desire would end up with anarchy.  

Unlike a vast majority of golfers, I've actually met and had discussions with USGA Rules officials, instructors, members of the Rules Committee.  These are the people whom you label as "snobby, elitist, condescending, we know what's best for you thinking, IDIOTS they are".  And you couldn't be further from the truth, these are uniformly extremely intelligent and knowledgeable folks, whose primary motivation is to make the game as good as it possibly can be.  You may not agree with their decisions, but you really shouldn't impugn their intelligence or motivations. 

[Subdiver1]

On 12/9/2023 at 6:30 AM, Javs said:

Not sure if this article has been posted. However, found it interesting.

https://golf.com/gear/golf-balls/golf-ball-test-modern-balata-robot/?utm_campaign=PANTHEON_STRIPPED&utm_content=PANTHEON_STRIPPED&utm_medium=PANTHEON_STRIPPED&utm_source=PANTHEON_STRIPPED&amp=1

11 hours ago, Javs said:

I was so hoping someone would say something……. 

11 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Wait ppl don't read and just post blindly? That never happens here!

Insert all the sarcasm possible.

@Javs and @GolfSpy_APH yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw it AFTER I posted. I started the post and got sidetracked for a couple of hours bifurcating my attention between work honey-do list items and trying to figure out if there was enough bourbon in the house to carry me through catching up on this thread before I I finished reading the article, completing and posting my thoughts and question. 

Arg!!! Foiled again by those meddling kids!

[NM01]

9 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

Why is everyone afraid to answer my question! We are all smart guys, can observe, and watch what is going on, and have played at a public course, and can make a reasonable guess, on what you think the number is.  I understand that perhaps in your individual groups, and circles, you all play by the rules, and that is what matters to you. 

There are millions of rounds of golf played a year I don’t know of any organization that tracks how many handicap rounds are played which would be the only ones that more than likely would follow the rules of golf. If any of us answered your question with a percentage you would doubt the number and ask for proof as you are doing now so there is no answer, but you can try to search it out and see if you find one and provide us that answer. There are more than 2 million golfers in US with a handicap so that’s a pretty good amount of the golfing population that are probably playing by the rules. I can tell you I see as many groups playing by the rules as I do not playing by the rules when I’m on the course. I see  large groups at several courses that are having out after their rounds talking about the scores and money.

16 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

If you actually think that a vast majority of ALL players care then say so.  If not then I would ask that you refrain from using your belief that golf is somehow intrinsically harmed  by ALL players not following a set of rules

I don’t think anyone of us has said that golf is intrinsically harmed by golfers not following the rules and have actually said otherwise that we don’t care if they follow the rules or not and if they are just out for fun that is fine and hope they enjoy the game. 

 

18 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

This is just not factually correct!  It is an antiquated idea, that relics are clinging to, for a sense of superiority over others, by applying sanctioned competition rules to non competition play.

The handicaps aren’t just used by those who compete. They care carried by those who like you want some type of measurement of their success. I know play with guys that don’t compete and carry a handicap and ply by the rules for all their rounds. I’ve been paired with strangers who never compete and played their entire round keeping score and playing by the rules. The notion that competition is the only reason for handicaps or only those competing are the ones that carry handicaps is false.

 

[funkyjudge]

4 hours ago, Stuka44 said:

Golf is different from other sports in one main way that the USGA & R&A are ignoring.  Golf unlike almost every other sport has NEVER BEEN, AND WILL NEVER BE A   COMPETITIVE activity  for 95 percent of the people who play it. NOBODY plays match play, where the other person is forced to pick up his ball after 4 hits, because I have made par already, and its on to the next hole

I completely disagree with this. Virtually every single golfer that I know plays matchplay golf every week (many of us do so multiple times per week). My statewide senior travel league, with more than 320 players, plays 100% matchplay, my 9-hole league plays both stroke play and matchplay, and we have “GAP” (Golf Association of Philadelphia) matches with more 80 to 100 teams sponsored by both private and public clubs in three states that play all matches strictly in a matchplay format every spring and early summer. In addition, there is a “challenge cup” competition in this area, in which I participated until last year. These matches are two-day events that are played Ryder Cup style, thus entirely in a matchplay format.

Head over to the UK, Ireland, and the European continent and you will discover that golf is much more commonly played in a matchplay format than in medal (stroke) play.

I have been playing golf for nearly 40 years, and I can say with total certainty that at least 80 to 90% of the golfers that I know play matchplay golf, and more than 90% of the golfers that I know and with whom I regularly play the game play competitive golf. As a long-time athlete in other sports (football, baseball, and a bit of basketball, including a few years as a professional and semi-pro baseball player), I was attracted to golf for the competition that the sport offers. And by “competition”,  I mean organized competitive events.

[Preeway]

14 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

If not then I would ask that you refrain from using your belief that golf is somehow intrinsically harmed  by ALL players not following a set of rules.  This is just not factually correct!  It is an antiquated idea, that relics are clinging to, for a sense of superiority over others, by applying sanctioned competition rules to non competition play.

I would have to pretty strongly disagree with this sentiment. The rules are absolutely what make the game what it is. And that applies to every sport. Sure, the rules get a little bent or watered down at the rec level in any sport. But you don’t see guys playing basketball at the YMCA allowing 4 steps instead of 2. Or counting half court shots as 4 points instead of 3. Kids playing a pick up game of baseball on the playground still abide by three strikes and four balls but they aren’t fretting over the distance from home to first base or the distance to the pitching mound. The rules are what make the game what it is. Yes, the ball roll back is a silly idea but calling those of us who see real value in the rules being applied universally as antiquated or snobbish is itself arrogant. I don’t view my casual round with the boys getting played with preferred lies or free relief from tree roots as snubbing my nose at the R&A. It’s more a matter of keeping the pace of play moving and enjoying a relaxing round of golf. 

[chisag]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I don't know about anyone else, so I won't make generalities like many on this thread have done.  With my pretty large group of friends, we almost always have a match of some kind, and we play in accordance with the Rules. 

 

5 minutes ago, Preeway said:

calling those of us who see real value in the rules being applied universally as antiquated or snobbish is itself arrogant. I don’t view my casual round with the boys getting played with preferred lies or free relief from tree roots as snubbing my nose at the R&A. It’s more a matter of keeping the pace of play moving and enjoying a relaxing round of golf. 

 

... You see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear. We have seen more than a few on this thread state unequivocally NOBODY wants bifurcation. Yet they only make up 30% of the votes with 44% for and the rest don't care. It is the most vocal and outraged, and I am guessing those that wanna make golf great again that seem to think their opinions are shared by everyone or certainly should be. 

... My group of 6 play by the rules. 4 of them may break a rule unknowingly but usually ask the two of us if they are unsure. We are not zealots but simply wish to play by the rules. Even the ones we think are stupid. And when someone in the group does inadvertently break a rule those of us that know better  don't mention it or care. We play for the joy of competition, mostly with the course and ourselves, the camaraderie and the fresh air and sunshine. Nobody in our group drinks on the course and several of us don't drink away from the course either. I am the only one that plays music and my pards enjoy it but can only hear it if they are within 6-10 feet of my ZIP cart. None of us can hear it on the tee or the greens, just while we are walking between shots. And all of us walk. We have never bet on golf though we have occasionally played as twosomes competing with our handicaps simply for pride. 

... It would be easy for me to extrapolate my personal info to everyone that plays golf. But in the summer 2 of my pards go back to Canada and 1 back to Chicago and I am paired up with plenty of strangers so I know from personal experience how people play golf, what rules they play by and how series they are is all over the map. Although thankfully a group of Bro's drinking heavily and playing music far too loud seems to be relegated to their individual foursome and I have only been paired up with a 3some that lost their 4th once and it was one of the few unpleasant days I ever spent on a golf course. I truly appreciate this poll which certainly shows those outraged and ready to march on the USGA headquarters with tiki torches that they are in the minority. Some even objected to "don't care" as an answer even though most really just don't care one way or the other, so it really was the best option. Not they don't have an opinion because most certainly do but in the end they know ranting on social media about an obscure 1st world problem... repeatedly, is simply a waste of their time. 

... But the bottom line is personally I really don't care and I have learned when there are things in life I have absolutely no control over, I don't worry about them. In the end my opinion means less than nothing and the USGA will do what they want to do. Then I can abide by their rules or choose not to, just like millions of golfers rolling their ball in the fairway, moving it out of a divot or taking mulligans which is fine by me too. 

[jamesstarns]

I’ve been playing since the late 1970’s and have played a lot of different balls throughout the years.  One thing I do know is that my game always found a way adjust to the balls of the time and my scores/handicap really didn’t change much.  I now hit the ball further than I ever have before but  the scores haven’t changed.  I don’t think the rollback will have any negative effects to my game. 

[Shapotomous]

27 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... ..... In the end my opinion means less than nothing and the USGA will do what they want to do. .....

I think this is true and a bit of an issue as I believe the USGA (and R&A) should take input from their membership.  

[chisag]

2 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

I think this is true and a bit of an issue as I believe the USGA (and R&A) should take input from their membership.  

 

... Relative point for sure but to be fair I do think it is interesting that the USGA was advocating a bifurcation roll back initially but the OEMs and the Tours were vehemently against it. So I have a hard time blaming the USGA for rolling back the ball for Am's. 

[cnosil]

11 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

I think this is true and a bit of an issue as I believe the USGA (and R&A) should take input from their membership.  

Based on what I have read anyone can submit comments during the proposed change evaluation period.  

[Stuka44]

56 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

I completely disagree with this. Virtually every single golfer that I know plays matchplay

I can't argue against nonsense. 

You must be unique.  Again in leagues, and clubs etc, and organized groups maybe.  I have played with hundreds of different people(nor has anyone I know who plays) on get a tee time and show up and play on weekends,  and NOT ONCE, has any person ever met ,me on the tee and said, "we're playing match play right, or one of my buddies when I ask them if they played the last weekend ever said.  OH I had a great match play match this weekend.

[NM01]

18 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Relative point for sure but to be fair I do think it is interesting that the USGA was advocating a bifurcation roll back initially but the OEMs and the Tours were vehemently against it. So I have a hard time blaming the USGA for rolling back the ball for Am's. 

The truth is the USGA wanted a rollback for all but there was pushback across the industry on that so they decided to try and force bifurcation. The tours said no as did the PGA Of America which hosts one of the majors. So the USGA went back to their original option so yes the USGA is the one to blame. The USGA also chose to go with their own interpretation of data rather than all the data that was provided from various experts that contradicted their thoughts. The USGA also said that distance isn’t an amateur issue yet they chose to go the route of punishing the amateur for the tours and pga of America not following their approach.

Edited December 10, 2023 by RickyBobby_PR

[NM01]

1 minute ago, Stuka44 said:

I can't argue against nonsense. 

You must be unique.  Again in leagues, and clubs etc, and organized groups maybe.  I have played with hundreds of different people(nor has anyone I know who plays) on get a tee time and show up and play on weekends,  and NOT ONCE, has any person ever met ,me on the tee and said, "we're playing match play right, or one of my buddies when I ask them if they played the last weekend ever said.  OH I had a great match play match this weekend.

You really need to get out of whatever golf bubble you are in. He isn’t wrong about the UK and how much match play is used over there as well as how many rounds actually follow the rules of golf.

 

[Stuka44]

I'm OUT.  RULES ZEALOTS, have shouted down common sense!

[Stuka44]

3 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You really need to get out of whatever golf bubble

Give me a percentage that you think then!!!  Of all golf played  that follows the rules.

[cnosil]

4 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

I can't argue against nonsense. 

You must be unique.  Again in leagues, and clubs etc, and organized groups maybe.  I have played with hundreds of different people(nor has anyone I know who plays) on get a tee time and show up and play on weekends,  and NOT ONCE, has any person ever met ,me on the tee and said, "we're playing match play right, or one of my buddies when I ask them if they played the last weekend ever said.  OH I had a great match play match this weekend.

Most groups that I know of that go play generally do a Nassau or skins bet; which is basically match play.    Even when playing match play people still keep their score which is how people report on how well they did;  or they say they won/lost some amount of money. 

[NM01]

1 minute ago, Stuka44 said:

Give me a percentage that you think then!!!  Of all golf played  that follows the rules.

It doesn’t matter what number I tell you or anyone tells you it will be questioned. So you wil have to do your owns research to see if it exists or not. Which I don’t think it does.