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PGA of America allows distance devices


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The big news of the day:

Always important to clarify: the PGA is not the PGA Tour. This change applies only to the events governed by the PGA. But it seems likely to open to door for the adoption of that rule in further professional events.

My take: I think there's a defensible argument that determining the length of the shot is one of the skills of golf. Golf architects, at times, attempt to disguise distances for just this reason. But if we want to test that skill (especially on the professional level) then disallowing yardage books would also be consistent. If yardage books are permissible, rangefinders should be as well.

I'm indifferent as to which position is chosen. I just think that allowing yardage books while disallowing rangefinders is an incoherent position.

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what is the reason for doing this? 
is the purpose to speed up the rounds? were players/caddies complaining? if rangefinders are an option what about watches like the Garmin?

I don't think this is a good move for the PGA. 
They're professionals for a reason.

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

About time. Why should caddies have to go measure all the locations when you can just use a rangefinder? None of these guys are guessing distances either way. Save time and allow the rangefinders.

+1. With the books they have/use, just let them use rangefinders - or whatever is fastest! Now if they’d outlaw green read books (never happen I know), that’s where many pros seem to take forever...

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Correct me if I’m wrong but are practice rounds designed so they can get distances down on their “notepads”?

either way works for me. I like the whole mapping of the course the caddies do, green rolls etc etc. I would prefer none on tour (distance finders anyway) just for the talent it requires on the player and caddie end to get that all mapped out

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About time. Why should caddies have to go measure all the locations when you can just use a rangefinder? None of these guys are guessing distances either way. Save time and allow the rangefinders.

Range finders aren’t against the rules. The tour just implements a local rule prohibiting them. I am in favor of their use, but don’t think it will save time as I don’t think getting the distance is the time consuming part of their routine.

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Players and caddies have been using rangefinders during practice rounds for a while now. They take notes and have pretty much all the numbers they need beforehand - unless of course they get out of position. The skill required to pace off a yardage is minimal. Allowing the use of distance measuring devices will hopefully save time which is only a good thing and well worth whatever trade-off there may be IMO.

This should pretty much eliminate Monday finishes due to darkness which has been an issue before. Just go back to 2014 at Valhalla. If McIlroy and Wiesberger hadn't been given the go ahead to tee off before the horn blew, they would have had to return Monday to play one stinking hole. Granted, the reason that tournament ran up against darkness in the first place was because of a rain delay - there really isn't anything we can do to help the weather - but at least there wouldn't have been so much confusion on the final hole of a major. They likely would have had time to wait for Fowler and Mickelson to advance and still finish with daylight left.

I think the change is overdue and should be implemented across all pro tournaments with perhaps one caveat - they all must use a non-slope device. It can't even be an option. If that means they all be required to use the same model, I'm good with that.

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11 minutes ago, cnosil said:

but don’t think it will save time as I don’t think getting the distance is the time consuming part of their routine.

It does add to the routine considerably when players get out of position. We've seen it many times before, but otherwise I agree.

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It does add to the routine considerably when players get out of position. We've seen it many times before, but otherwise I agree.

But if there is no line of sight, the rangefinder is useless. Also to avoid slow play rules, caddies get to the ball shortly before players and are determine yardage before the player gets there.

All for the change, just don’t think there will be any significant time savings.

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14 minutes ago, cnosil said:


But if there is no line of sight, the rangefinder is useless. Also to avoid slow play rules, caddies get to the ball shortly before players and are determine yardage before the player gets there.

All for the change, just don’t think there will be any significant time savings.

Agree to disagree.

There've been plenty of big moments in a tournament where someone near the top gets out of position and spends a considerable amount of time figuring out the yardage. Even if line of sight is an issue, you can still laser and pace from the nearest point where line of sight does exist.

Whether or not we'll see devices used like this is absolute speculation as of now, but at the very least the ability to save some time is there.

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I feel like the guys on tour would use it as a check mark for validation in their process.

I could be wrong, but from what I hear from broadcasts talking with their caddy before a shot they’re more focused on where the ridge, slope, backstop, bunker, etc is and the flag is secondary.

They’re still going to want to look at the green book, know how far it is to where they want to land it, how close the bunker is to the front and then OK and the flag is XX yards so we want to carry it to this point on the ridge.

Generally I’d say I’m for it, but I can see the argument against it as well. I like that they are line of sight measurements only, so they’re not getting all the distances to hazards and to cut off doglegs and such, even though they have much of that in their yardage books anyway, at least that isn’t “from where I’m standing.”

It’s a tricky one for them to navigate for sure.

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48 minutes ago, cnosil said:

But if there is no line of sight, the rangefinder is useless. Also to avoid slow play rules, caddies get to the ball shortly before players and are determine yardage before the player gets there.

There are ways around this when necessary. Move along an arc to one side, sight from a position in view of the hole, and back to the ball e.g. 100 yds to hole plus 50 yds back to bag = 150 yds. Slower yes, but an exception anyway. But again, I’m for whatever is net faster...

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I don't see an issue with it because they already have the information in their books. We arent going to see every pro out there shooting a laser at the flag before every shot, it will be on mishits IMO. I don't see it helping or hurting "pace of play"

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To clarify on my thoughts about rangefinders saving time, I don't think it will be much. We aren't going to see a dramatic reduction in the time it takes a tournament round to finish, but possibly we'd see a grand culmination of 30 minutes or more???  If you do the math, that's only 30 seconds per round per player for the 65 players who make the cut. So considerably less per round per player over the course of four days.

Like I said in my post above, it would have been enough for McIlroy to finish the final hole of the '14 PGA Championship in daylight.

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PGA of America president Jim Richerson said, “We’re always interested in methods that may help improve the flow of play during our Championships,” with the idea that players and caddies can find their yardages faster, thus speeding up the pace of play.

Makes sense, right? Not to one PGA Tour pro.

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I've always felt that a rangefinder helps a fast player play faster, but it slows down a slow player. Yet another distraction. I will be interested to see how throwing a caddie into that mix affects the outcome.

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54 minutes ago, Siamese Moose said:

I've always felt that a rangefinder helps a fast player play faster, but it slows down a slow player. Yet another distraction. I will be interested to see how throwing a caddie into that mix affects the outcome.

I can just see Bryson now... 

"was it 228.7 or 228.6?! Laze it again!"

"Ok so 228.6, 5% wind, 2.365% humitidy fluctuation, 1.067* uphill...."

"Where's the ridge on the green? Let me pace it off"

 

 

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I don't think it will improve pace of play at all.  On the telecasts where they show caddie / player interaction it seems to me the time taken isn't getting the actual yardage but the discussion on what yardage its playing....what club to hit considering wind and elevation changes along with the desired ball flight for the pin position.  Watch the Feherty - Mickelson interview to see the description of his thought process on club and swing variations to get the same yardage out of a shot.  I know he tends to over analyze stuff but they all do this to some degree. 

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This is awesome. Now they just need to calculate elevation changes and they’re good-to-go! Can’t whine about a wrong yardage in these tournaments!!!

Saw a great tweet today about how it seems that folks that are against the lasers are also against pros wearing shorts, and also want distance rolled-back! Ha! 

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Pros wearing shorts would really slow down play....

just think how long Phil would pose showing off his calves for the photographers!!  😁

And lower TV ratings.....  I don't want to see Lumpy like legs on TV.....  😜

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41 minutes ago, PMookie said:

This is awesome. Now they just need to calculate elevation changes and they’re good-to-go! Can’t whine about a wrong yardage in these tournaments!!!

Saw a great tweet today about how it seems that folks that are against the lasers are also against pros wearing shorts, and also want distance rolled-back! Ha! 

"Pro's shouldn't wear shorts, it doesn't look good." 

"We need to grow the game."

"Hitting it far is not a skill."

"Walking off yardages is a skill."

"Laser's will speed up play."

"Laser's will slow down play." 

So exhausting, I'm about at the point where I am giving up on everything golf and just going to go chase a little white ball. I have never seen an industry as F%&ked up as this. I get that a lot of it is the 24 hour news cycle however there is no direction. The USGA & R&A don't know what they want. The public doesn't understand that the tour is entertainment. And the tour doesn't understand how the public plays this great game. And on top of all that the discussions have been the same for 100 years. 

 

Ok I feel a little better now.

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53 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

"Pro's shouldn't wear shorts, it doesn't look good." 

"We need to grow the game."

"Hitting it far is not a skill."

"Walking off yardages is a skill."

"Laser's will speed up play."

"Laser's will slow down play." 

So exhausting, I'm about at the point where I am giving up on everything golf and just going to go chase a little white ball. I have never seen an industry as F%&ked up as this. I get that a lot of it is the 24 hour news cycle however there is no direction. The USGA & R&A don't know what they want. The public doesn't understand that the tour is entertainment. And the tour doesn't understand how the public plays this great game. And on top of all that the discussions have been the same for 100 years. 

 

Ok I feel a little better now.

I'll never understand the anti-shorts crowd. There are so many things in life to be upset about and you choose pants, just reflect on that a little.

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4 minutes ago, yungkory said:

I'll never understand the anti-shorts crowd. There are so many things in life to be upset about and you choose pants, just reflect on that a little.

When you step back a take a look at all the arguments pertaining to golf, this could be said about a lot of them. 

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I'll never understand the anti-shorts crowd. There are so many things in life to be upset about and you choose pants, just reflect on that a little.

I am guessing you think that shoes are more important than pants?. Most businesses think that as well since their signs star shoes and shirts are required; don’t see many that say pants.

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My view is that the lasers, etc., should be allowed in professional tournaments.  I think it levels the playing field a bit between the top players and the lesser players.  I watch a golf tournament to see how good the golfer is, not how good the caddy is.  I have to assume that the best golfers get the best caddies.  This will always be true as the best caddies want to be paid like it and will always provide an advantage to the top golfers unrelated to how well they play.  If the devices help level the playing field even a bit, I am in favor of them and think they would be good for competition.  

  • :taylormade-small: Sim 2 Driver Fujikura Ventus Blue 6R shaft
  • :taylormade-small:Sim 2 5 wood Fujikura Ventus Blue 5R shaft
  •  th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg  0311 Gen 5 Seven Wood Project X Cypher 50 5.5 shaft set to flat with weights set to fade.
  • :titelist-small: H818 Hybrid 25 degrees Tensei ck Series 60 HY regular flex shafts at C4 setting (flat for lefties)
  • :titelist-small: 718 AP1 irons 6-gap Tensei ck Series AMC IR regular flex bent two degrees flat
  • :vokey-small: SM 7 Wedge 58 degrees M grind with 8 bounce Steel shafts wedge flex bent 2 degrees flat
  • :ping-small: Glide 3 52.12 and 56.14 with  Alta CB Red Regular Flex shaft bent 2 degrees flat
  • Go back and forth between :cameron-small: Select Newport 2 putter 34 inch length and :ping-small: Sigma G Tyne putter 33 inch length
  • Bridgestone B X.
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On 2/9/2021 at 12:33 PM, Middler said:

+1. With the books they have/use, just let them use rangefinders - or whatever is fastest! Now if they’d outlaw green read books (never happen I know), that’s where many pros seem to take forever...

Agreed....  Tee to Green is not the problem with the speed of the game its on the GREEN. Ban green books, and ban the caddies from going on the green to assist.  The pro is the player, look at it with your naked eye and putt the damn ball.  Anybody else actually timed some of these guys on the green.  I've literally timed Kevin Na and some of these other players.  Pathetic I know buy its so aggravating to watch.  They'll spend a minute 15 lining up and hitting a 3 footer...literally. I get it its their livelihood but C'mon!

I want some organization to challenge if all this time the pro's take is REALLY NECESSARY!  Lets have a challenge of some average weekend hacks like me.  Give us a day or two to practice on the pro course greens, they've played them many many times most of them that's the least they can do.  Let us spend two hole days practicing on them rolling balls to where I know the pin placements are going to be ( to get an idea of speed and break).  The PROS KNOW AHEAD OF TIME!  Now after they have played their rounds drop me off 50 yards from the green( with a ball on the green where the pro ended up)  let me walk up see the contour, and from the time we step on the green we'll have half the time the pro took to examine and hit the putt.  Compare the distance of misses of amateur's to those of the pros who took twice as long to hit their putts, and see if their excessive time on the green is warranted.  I don't think it would be.  Oh and give me a course caddie to simply tell me it breaks about a foot left to right, to further help me strike the putt.

Driver: Cobra King Speedzone

Irons:  :callaway-small: Mavrik 4-GW

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: CG-14 56 & RTX 52

Putter:  :ping-small: Scottsdale Wolverine

Woods:  Gigagolf  3W, 2H, 3H

Ball:  Srixon Z-Star XV 

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7 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

"Pro's shouldn't wear shorts, it doesn't look good." 

"We need to grow the game."

"Hitting it far is not a skill."

"Walking off yardages is a skill."

"Laser's will speed up play."

"Laser's will slow down play." 

So exhausting, I'm about at the point where I am giving up on everything golf and just going to go chase a little white ball. I have never seen an industry as F%&ked up as this. I get that a lot of it is the 24 hour news cycle however there is no direction. The USGA & R&A don't know what they want. The public doesn't understand that the tour is entertainment. And the tour doesn't understand how the public plays this great game. And on top of all that the discussions have been the same for 100 years. 

 

Ok I feel a little better now.

Spot-on!!!!

Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X

Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X

Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X

Irons:  Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50D/54V/58D:Nippon:Modus 130 stiff, +1”

Putter:  :edel-golf-1: EAS 1.0

Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX

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2 hours ago, stuka44 said:

Oh and give me a course caddie to simply tell me it breaks about a foot left to right, to further help me strike the putt.

One time my stockbroker asked me to play at his club and we used a forecaddy.  He helped us line up putts.  It was the best I have ever putted.

  • :taylormade-small: Sim 2 Driver Fujikura Ventus Blue 6R shaft
  • :taylormade-small:Sim 2 5 wood Fujikura Ventus Blue 5R shaft
  •  th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg  0311 Gen 5 Seven Wood Project X Cypher 50 5.5 shaft set to flat with weights set to fade.
  • :titelist-small: H818 Hybrid 25 degrees Tensei ck Series 60 HY regular flex shafts at C4 setting (flat for lefties)
  • :titelist-small: 718 AP1 irons 6-gap Tensei ck Series AMC IR regular flex bent two degrees flat
  • :vokey-small: SM 7 Wedge 58 degrees M grind with 8 bounce Steel shafts wedge flex bent 2 degrees flat
  • :ping-small: Glide 3 52.12 and 56.14 with  Alta CB Red Regular Flex shaft bent 2 degrees flat
  • Go back and forth between :cameron-small: Select Newport 2 putter 34 inch length and :ping-small: Sigma G Tyne putter 33 inch length
  • Bridgestone B X.
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