Making my own putter #2

[DStar 1,277]

The red paint was annoying me as it looked rubbish so redone in white, much better  

[Grasper Parsnip 23]

On 11/3/2021 at 1:14 PM, DStar said:

The red paint was annoying me as it looked rubbish so redone in white, much better  

That is a beautiful putter, I like the way that the shaft goes into the hosel to keep the hands just forwrd of the face at address.

[DStar 1,277]

Thank you

[IONEPUTT 97]

In a previous reply to your post on building your own putter, I mentioned that your work looks great, and I suggested that you try a putter design with a High CG to get the ball rolling as soon as possible for better performance on the greens. Here are a few photos of the putter I designed and built about 15 years ago with a High CG. 

The two pods above the face of the putter have 60 grains of lead in each pod. The putter is made of Pakka wood, which is very hard  and stands up very well to a lot of use. Putter head weighs 360 grams or so. There are five pieces of lead in the main body of the putter also. Very easy to align the face of the putter to the ball using the light colored inserts in the top surface of the head. The design rolls the ball extremely well, Better than any  name brand putter I've tried over the years. 

[cnosil 24,336]

35 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

In a previous reply to your post on building your own putter, I mentioned that your work looks great, and I suggested that you try a putter design with a High CG to get the ball rolling as soon as possible for better performance on the greens. Here are a few photos of the putter I designed and built about 15 years ago with a High CG. 

The two pods above the face of the putter have 60 grains of lead in each pod. The putter is made of Pakka wood, which is very hard  and stands up very well to a lot of use. Putter head weighs 360 grams or so. There are five pieces of lead in the main body of the putter also. Very easy to align the face of the putter to the ball using the light colored inserts in the top surface of the head. The design rolls the ball extremely well, Better than any  name brand putter I've tried over the years. 

Interesting design although it is probably not legal.   Don’t have a top view but the bars appear to send ahead of the face and look to be to far above the top line of the face.

 

i pulled the statements from the equipment rules:

Features of any nature that extend ahead of the face are not permitted on any club

For putters, alignment or other features must not extend above the top line of the face by more than 0.25 inches (6.35 mm)

 

[IONEPUTT 97]

For those of you that are not familiar with the system of measurement, there are 7000 grains to a pound, so it's a much more precise system to use to measure small  amounts of weight. 

The wooden pods are attached to the body of the putter with a small piece of tubing, and each tube has 30 grains of lead in them to go with the 60 grains in each pod. This weight is WAY above the CG of the ball, and that causes the ball to roll  sooner which helps to keep the ball on line when you putt. 

[IONEPUTT 97]

2 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Interesting design although it is probably not legal.   Don’t have a top view but the bars appear to send ahead of the face and look to be to far above the top line of the face.

 

i pulled the statements from the equipment rules:

Features of any nature that extend ahead of the face are not permitted on any club

For putters, alignment or other features must not extend above the top line of the face by more than 0.25 inches (6.35 mm)

 

The front of each pod is at the Center of the light colored piece of wood at the front of the putter face, so it is NOT in front of the putter face. So that is not an issue with the rules.

As for the pods being above the putter face, the rules allow for this IF the purpose of the piece above the putter face is "for the purpose of Balance".  And that is exactly the reason for the pods being above the face of the putter. So that is also not an issue.  And if it was considered to be a legal issue, all I would have to do is attach another piece of wood to the face of the putter that would go up to the height of the pods, and that would solve the issue if the USGA were to say my design was not legal as is. 

To be "HONEST" with you , I did NOT look at the rules when I designed my putter, or I would have made a few changes to my design to avoid any issues as you noted. I also do NOT play in any tourniments, so for my personal use I don't really care if the USGA has a problem with my design. If I were to play in a club event, I would make any changes to my design as needed to conform to the rules as needed. 

As I mentioned in another post, the design "Works" extremely well.  I have had about a dozen PGA instructors hit balls with my putter, and every one of them said my putter rolled the ball "better" than the putter they had in their bag. So the design works as I intended it to, so IF I would need to change a few things to get it to conform to the rules, that would be easy enough, and not really an issue. 

[IONEPUTT 97]

Here's a better view of my putter design. In this photo it's clear that the two pods are NOT in front of the face of the putter.  Sorry for the other photo not showing this more clearly. In this photo the camera is in line with the shaft, and therefore slightly behind the front face of the putter. 

[cnosil 24,336]

2 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

As for the pods being above the putter face, the rules allow for this IF the purpose of the piece above the putter face is "for the purpose of Balance".  And that is exactly the reason for the pods being above the face of the putter. So that is also not an issue.  

As I mentioned in another post, the design "Works" extremely well.  I have had about a dozen PGA instructors hit balls with my putter, and every one of them said my putter rolled the ball "better" than the putter they had in their bag. So the design works as I intended it to, so IF I would need to change a few things to get it to conform to the rules, that would be easy enough, and not really an issue. 

I'd be interested to see the rule that says it is ok for balance.   I am sure you could get it to be legal with modifications,  but page 41 of the equipment rules indicates that as configured it  isn't legal.  

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Equipment/Equipment Rules Final.pdf

 

I am sure it rolls the ball well.  Putters with proper loft configuration will launch the ball out of its depression without backspin and then start forward roll because of the friction of the ground.  

[IONEPUTT 97]

When I built my putter someone told me it may not be conforming so I looked it up at that time, about 15 years ago. What I found then was that there could be a part of the putter head above the face as long as it for for weight distrubution, Not sure of the exact wording, as it's been awhile. As you know there have been a lot of small changes to the rule book over the last 20 years, and the part I found may have been changed. I have no idea if that is the case or not. Just going by what I found back then about it being legal to have a piece of the club above the putter face if it was done to effect the weight balance of the club, and that is what my design does. 

On page 52 it shows that the putter face may be up to 2.5" tall. My putter face is right at 1.0" tall, and the total height of the putter head is 2.250" high. So it would not be a problem to change the face height of my design to reach up to the top of the two pods. Would surely change the look of the head, but it could be easily done to match what the rule books shows it must be according to todays rules. 

The main reason I posted my design photo was to show a way a high CG putter could be built. And the reason I built my putter was to see IF a high CG putter would in fact roll the ball better than the putters on the market at the time. And when I tested my putter using about a dozen PGA instructors as testers, They all said my putter rolled the ball better than their putter. Most of those instructors had either a Scotty Cameron or an Odyssey putter in their bag. And both of those top rated putters have a LOW CG design.  And nothing has changed with those brands to this day, they still have a low CG design. As I said in another post, I do NOT play in tour events and have no desire to re-design my putter to make everyone happy with the design meeting the USGA rules. If someone else wants to take my design and make a few changes to meet the rule book requirements, they are free to do so. I'm just not interested it doing so at this time in my life. 

[cnosil 24,336]

13 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

On page 52 it shows that the putter face may be up to 2.5" tall. My putter face is right at 1.0" tall, and the total height of the putter head is 2.250" high. So it would not be a problem to change the face height of my design to reach up to the top of the two pods. Would surely change the look of the head, but it could be easily done to match what the rule books shows it must be according to todays rules. 

The main reason I posted my design photo was to show a way a high CG putter could be built. And the reason I built my putter was to see IF a high CG putter would in fact roll the ball better than the putters on the market at the time. And when I tested my putter using about a dozen PGA instructors as testers, They all said my putter rolled the ball better than their putter. Most of those instructors had either a Scotty Cameron or an Odyssey putter in their bag. And both of those top rated putters have a LOW CG design.  And nothing has changed with those brands to this day, they still have a low CG design. As I said in another post, I do NOT play in tour events and have no desire to re-design my putter to make everyone happy with the design meeting the USGA rules. If someone else wants to take my design and make a few changes to meet the rule book requirements, they are free to do so. I'm just not interested it doing so at this time in my life. 

I am impressed with what you built and I enjoy seeing peoples DIY stuff.    After you started talking about high CG I looked up some stuff about how it worked and what it was supposed to do.  It was interesting, but if it was that much better,  I am sure the major OEMs would have built high CG putters.   Comparing to a Scotty or Odyssey really doesn't mean much to me as they are just putters that happen to be well known.   I also don't take a lot of stock in subjective opinions on ball roll;  but it would be interested to see the comparison on a Quintic since it actually measures ball roll or with a comparison using even a cell phone camera on slow motion with putters that are similarly configured from a weight and loft. 

Again,  don't take what I am writing a a knock on your putter;   I am very impressed.   My personal curiosity would like to see actual measurements of your claims.   

 

 

[Marnold2000 4]

On 3/16/2021 at 4:21 AM, DStar said:

Had a play with the black oxide treatment we have here at work on the carbon steel head. This one will be going in the bag when we can start playing again here in the UK.

Thanks for all the kind words guys, really appreciate them and any feedback:

Love custom putters and good luck on your venture!  I think a plate on the back side would really finish it off and give it a totally premium look.  Check out the Artisian line of putters out of Houston. Patrick Reed uses one. 
 

 

[midwestgolf 1]

Wonder how forged and hardened tool steel would be? How much loft? 

[IONEPUTT 97]

Hi Cnosil;  I'm glad you appreciate what I built.   There IS a way to TEST how soon the ball starts to roll with a putter, and IF the ball is being launched up into the air as it comes off the putter face. I learned about this test shortly after I built my first high CG putter and tried it.

What you do is hit a few balls to get the feel of HOW hard you have to hit the ball to get it to go 20-25 feet on level ground. Then set up with a ball about 12 inches from the cup, and hit the ball AT the cup. Right over the center of the cup. IF the ball goes right over the cup with NO problem, the ball was UP in the air as it went over the cup. NOT what you want to have happen. IF the ball was on the grass and rolling when it got to the front edge of the cup, the ball would nave started to go DOWN into the cup due to gravity. And when the ball got to the far side of the cup, it would have been part way down into the cup and the ball would have then HIT the back edge of the cup and it would have then Bounces UP a bit from hitting the cup. I tried this little test with my Odyssey putter and my custom built putter and it was quire an eye opener. With my Odyssey putter the ball DID NOT hit the far edge of the cup, and it FLEW right over the cup with no problem. But when I hit a ball with my High CG putter the ball DID hit the back lip of the cup and it bounced off the lip and UP into the air. proof that the ball had started to go down into the cup due to it rolling on the ground and NOT being up in the air.  This is a simple test YOU can do at your local putting green to see just how much AIR TIME your golf ball is getting coming of the face of your putter. A very simple and easy test anyone can do on the course that does not require any fanny equipment. Try it with your putter and see what happens.

As for WHY none of the major OEM's don't make a high CG putter, just look at all of the putters in the photos above of Artisan putters. Every one of them has a low lip on the back edge of the putter. And most EVERY golf I've every been paired with on the course uses this LIP to pick up their ball with OUT a need to BEND over. Would it be fair to say the most all golfers are TOO LAZY to bend over and pick up their ball, they would rather have a putter with this stupid lip at the back to pick up the ball instead.  I doubt that many of todays golfers would but a putter if it did NOT have this stupid little lip, as that would mean they would then have to bend over and that would not be cool. While this is ONLY my opinion of why some OEM's would not build a putter with a high CG, but can you explain one other good reason for this stupid on every putter being sold today?  I sure can't think of a good reason, can YOU?

[IONEPUTT 97]

19 hours ago, midwestgolf said:

Wonder how forged and hardened tool steel would be? How much loft? 

One good reason NOT to use hardened tool steel, is that even un-hardeded tool steel is HARD to machine, and that would just increase the cost to build the putter. And tool steel costs MORE than free machining stainless steel does. Plus there is NO good reason to use tool steel as stainless steel is plenty hard enough to last for decades of use no matter how much a golfer might practice or play. Total waste of both time and money to use tool steel. I hope this answers you question? 

[Rickp 28,489]

19 hours ago, midwestgolf said:

Wonder how forged and hardened tool steel would be? How much loft? 

Hardened Tool Steel is just that really hard.  There is little to no feel and ball comes off the face like a Rocket.

Did a DIY experiment many years ago when I had some Bridgeport Machine time.

[cnosil 24,336]

30 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

Hi Cnosil;  I'm glad you appreciate what I built.   There IS a way to TEST how soon the ball starts to roll with a putter, and IF the ball is being launched up into the air as it comes off the putter face. I learned about this test shortly after I built my first high CG putter and tried it.

What you do is hit a few balls to get the feel of HOW hard you have to hit the ball to get it to go 20-25 feet on level ground. Then set up with a ball about 12 inches from the cup, and hit the ball AT the cup. Right over the center of the cup. IF the ball goes right over the cup with NO problem, the ball was UP in the air as it went over the cup. NOT what you want to have happen. IF the ball was on the grass and rolling when it got to the front edge of the cup, the ball would nave started to go DOWN into the cup due to gravity. And when the ball got to the far side of the cup, it would have been part way down into the cup and the ball would have then HIT the back edge of the cup and it would have then Bounces UP a bit from hitting the cup. I tried this little test with my Odyssey putter and my custom built putter and it was quire an eye opener. With my Odyssey putter the ball DID NOT hit the far edge of the cup, and it FLEW right over the cup with no problem. But when I hit a ball with my High CG putter the ball DID hit the back lip of the cup and it bounced off the lip and UP into the air. proof that the ball had started to go down into the cup due to it rolling on the ground and NOT being up in the air.  This is a simple test YOU can do at your local putting green to see just how much AIR TIME your golf ball is getting coming of the face of your putter. A very simple and easy test anyone can do on the course that does not require any fanny equipment. Try it with your putter and see what happens.

As for WHY none of the major OEM's don't make a high CG putter, just look at all of the putters in the photos above of Artisan putters. Every one of them has a low lip on the back edge of the putter. And most EVERY golf I've every been paired with on the course uses this LIP to pick up their ball with OUT a need to BEND over. Would it be fair to say the most all golfers are TOO LAZY to bend over and pick up their ball, they would rather have a putter with this stupid lip at the back to pick up the ball instead.  I doubt that many of todays golfers would but a putter if it did NOT have this stupid little lip, as that would mean they would then have to bend over and that would not be cool. While this is ONLY my opinion of why some OEM's would not build a putter with a high CG, but can you explain one other good reason for this stupid on every putter being sold today?  I sure can't think of a good reason, can YOU?

The ball should bounce initially and is necessary to get the ball out if the depression it is sitting in.  Balls have 3 phases..skid, roll, and deceleration.  Your test also makes me question if you had/delivers the proper loft.  I’d still like to see measured results to see the launch conditions and tweak tue putter to launch ideally 

 

most OEMs produce mallet putter with no flange to pickup the ball.  While you can use the flange to pick up the ball,  it doesn’t work with the ball in the hole so the player has to bend over to retrieve the ball or use the suction cup that goes on the end of the grip.  

[IONEPUTT 97]

My High CG putter is built with 4* of loft, so the ball can come up and out of the slight depression it was sitting in on the green. That's the same loft as my Odyssey putter and yet my putter got the ball rolling a lot sooner than the Odyssey putter did. Same loft but rolling  sooner, which is what my design was built to do. 

And IF the ball doesn't go too far up off the putter face, it can start to roll as soon as if touches down and there is NO skid, which is what I was trying to get rid of, and it worked out fine. 

[cnosil 24,336]

3 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

My High CG putter is built with 4* of loft, so the ball can come up and out of the slight depression it was sitting in on the green. That's the same loft as my Odyssey putter and yet my putter got the ball rolling a lot sooner than the Odyssey putter did. Same loft but rolling  sooner, which is what my design was built to do. 

And IF the ball doesn't go too far up off the putter face, it can start to roll as soon as if touches down and there is NO skid, which is what I was trying to get rid of, and it worked out fine. 

Do a slow motion video with a half blacked out ball and show us the results.  Would be interesting to see. 

Here are a couple of instagram posts to show you what I am talking about:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQZAKBuFkzA/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CRPGB06lqe_/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

[IONEPUTT 97]

I could make a video but I will NOT waste my time doing that. I have done the putt the ball over the cup test, and my High CG putter passed and a few OEM putters I did the same test with did NOT pass. As I stated before, I had a dozen of so PGA golf instructors hit my putter and they ALL said my putter rolled the ball better then what they were using. So I did my testing and am happy with the results. I have all the proof I need, and I have no need to prove it again to anyone. Either accept my test results or you don't. Or YOU could modify your putter to be a high CG putter and do your own testing. 

I hope that D-Star will look at what I posted and build a new putter with a HG and learn from my testing. If not that is his choose.