3 Wood Options

[fixyurdivot]

26 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You are going to either have to find more 3-4 mph more ball speed which is going to be hard or find a setup that produces more peak height without over doing spin so that you get more carry and rollout.

Imo chasing total distance is tough and it the best way to look at what club is the right one because you are relying on course conditions to be the same every time you play so that you get the same rollout. That’s going to be very inconsistent round to round and possibly hole to hole. Also if it’s to reach a green you run the risk of the ball running thru the green if there’s not enough spin and land angle to stop then ball. 
 

A 13* 3w that launches low and flies low and runs out a lot is a possibility if just looking for more total distance.

If reaching par 5 in 2 and longer par 4 in regulation is the goal why not just move up a tee box 

 

Yup, it seems I'm stuck in the muck.  I almost always play white tees and find total yardage between 5700-6100 manageable; that is to say well struck shots on the majority of holes are reachable in regulation.  Yeah, age-wise, I'm on the downhill side of gaining swing/ball speed and my left shoulder history has left me with the decision not to attempt swing speed training... at least to flat out levels.

Going back through the latest MGS Most Wanted FW's, I do note that the SFT models are among the shortest hitting, so while they do help reduce right side misses, looks to be a at cost.

[Kenny B]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

Kenny at some yet TBD point (or two, or three) during rounds at the PNW Meet-up... "where the hell is my 3w?" .

I just looked at these and there are a slew of options.  I thought you were making a play on words with the "Heavenwood" but they do have such a thing.  What loft do you have?

The Heavenwood has only one loft.  It's 20º whereas a 7W is 21º, but the length of the Heavenwood is 1/4" longer than their 5W.  Callaway has had a Heavenwood for a long time; it's not new.  

The 3W I have is 15º and I didn't have any luck hitting a Titleist TS2 16.5º FW.  Go figure.

[Kenny B]

4 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Yup, it seems I'm stuck in the muck.  I almost always play white tees and find total yardage between 5700-6100 manageable; that is to say well struck shots on the majority of holes are reachable in regulation.  Yeah, age-wise, I'm on the downhill side of gaining swing/ball speed and my left shoulder history has left me with the decision not to attempt swing speed training... at least to flat out levels.

Going back through the latest MGS Most Wanted FW's, I do note that the SFT models are among the shortest hitting, so while they do help reduce right side misses, looks to be a at cost.

I don't think this chart accurately reflects distance rankings for your swing speed.  It's based on all swing speed testers... I believe.  It might fair better if the ranking was just showing slow swing speed testing results.

[fixyurdivot]

9 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

The Heavenwood has only one loft.  It's 20º whereas a 7W is 21º, but the length of the Heavenwood is 1/4" longer than their 5W.  Callaway has had a Heavenwood for a long time; it's not new.  

The 3W I have is 15º and I didn't have any luck hitting a Titleist TS2 16.5º FW.  Go figure.

That is interesting.  Perhaps it's the flat profile as compared to the TS2?  I think that's what turned me onto the PING.  I had been bagging a Callaway Warbird 3w (don't even recall it's loft).  It was no problem off a tee but a bit less so off the fairway.  One of the guys in AZ gamed the G30 3w and 5w and had me try the 3w a few times.  It was a HUGE shift in reliability.  Oh, I can still mishit any club in the bag anytime, but my confidence with the G400's is very high.

Good point on the MGS MW Data but I suspect even if higher ss testers were parsed out, it would probably follow the same trend.

 

[chisag]

10 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

  I almost always play white tees and find total yardage between 5700-6100 manageable; that is to say well struck shots on the majority of holes are reachable in regulation. 

 

... That is the key imo. Reaching a par 5 in two is not a right    it is a privilege. Most Ams should not be able to reach a par 5 in two shots unless it is a short par 5 and a career shot, and as long as your 3rd shot on a par 5 is a short iron or wedge you are probably playing the right tees. I advocate moving up a tee box if you can't reach more than a few par 4's in regulation. Most courses have one or two long and challenging par 4's that call for a hybrid or fairway wood, but if you can't reach more than 75% of them in regulation it is probably time to move up. I think it goes without saying, the game is supposed to be difficult. 

[Kenny B]

1 minute ago, fixyurdivot said:

That is interesting.  Perhaps it's the flat profile as compared to the TS2?  I think that's what turned me onto the PING.  I had been bagging a Callaway Warbird 3w (don't even recall it's loft).  It was no problem off a tee but a bit less so off the fairway.  One of the guys in AZ gamed the G30 3w and 5w and had me try the 3w a few times.  It was a HUGE shift in reliability.  Oh, I can still mishit any club in the bag anytime, but my confidence with the G400's is very high.

 

Could be.  Yes, I can mishit this Epic Max 3W.  I did it yesterday!!  But I hit it 5 times off the fairway and only had one mishit, and the ball still went straight down the middle of the fairway... just bouncing!    The others launched higher than any FW I have hit in recent memory, dead straight and long for me.  

I will say that last week I tried hitting it off a tee so that the ball was barely above the grass; that was no good!!  The ball launched much too high and no distance.  Off the grass is fine; tee no good.  It may be that I don't now how to hit FW/Hybrids off tees, since I never do it.  I always hit driver... or an iron.

[fixyurdivot]

3 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... That is the key imo. Reaching a par 5 in two is not a right    it is a privilege. Most Ams should not be able to reach a par 5 in two shots unless it is a short par 5 and a career shot, and as long as your 3rd shot on a par 5 is a short iron or wedge you are probably playing the right tees. I advocate moving up a tee box if you can't reach more than a few par 4's in regulation. Most courses have one or two long and challenging par 4's that call for a hybrid or fairway wood, but if you can't reach more than 75% of them in regulation it is probably time to move up. I think it goes without saying, the game is supposed to be difficult. 

Good points and to be clear, I am talking about the shorter par 5's or those that are downhill and with prevailing tail winds.  I guess my whole thing with this thread is my feeling like I should have more carry spread between a 16* and 19* wood.  Most times I feel like I absolutely coin the 3w off the tee only to find it barely out 200 yards. Conversely, I'll sometimes thin it off the deck and get 220 yards.  The former is what started me wondering about a lower trajectory, lower spin shaft vs. the Alta CB .

[Kenny B]

29 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Yup, it seems I'm stuck in the muck.  I almost always play white tees and find total yardage between 5700-6100 manageable; that is to say well struck shots on the majority of holes are reachable in regulation. 

Sooooo, are you going to play back with @Thin2win or up with me at the 2022 PNW Spy meet-up?  

[fixyurdivot]

1 minute ago, Kenny B said:

Sooooo, are you going to play back with @Thin2win or up with me at the 2022 PNW Spy meet-up?  

Definitely back with that young buck... makes me swing out of my shoes .

[cnosil]

41 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Good point on the MGS MW Data but I suspect even if higher ss testers were parsed out, it would probably follow the same trend.

 

I might be wrong, but for things like 3 woods and driving iron testing they tend to pick testers with higher swing speeds so that they can get the most out of the club.  If the tester can't produce effective shots they are generally removed from the test pool.   

As for options,  you best bet is to try them but I voted for the 4 wood option;  a little more forgiving and a little more loft.   I have always been a fan of tour edge exotics in this category;  probably one of the most underrated OEMs.    You can pick up an older model for good prices;  I have played several over the years and have one in my backup bag.  

[Kenny B]

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I might be wrong, but for things like 3 woods and driving iron testing they tend to pick testers with higher swing speeds so that they can get the most out of the club.  If the tester can't produce effective shots they are generally removed from the test pool.   

As for options,  you best bet is to try them but I voted for the 4 wood option;  a little more forgiving and a little more loft.   I have always been a fan of tour edge exotics in this category;  probably one of the most underrated OEMs.    You can pick up an older model for good prices;  I have played several over the years and have one in my backup bag.  

I hadn't thought about the slow swingers not in the pool, but makes sense.  

I did try the TEE hybrid in 17º before the Epic FW.  I liked the 722 model, but not the 721; however, the 722 was shorter than my old W/S D300.  Tour Edge does have a nice try for 30 days program; free returns, including shipping.  

When I got my Epic Max FW, I went through Callaway PreOwned b because I could try them out and return them if I don't like them; minimal cost for return shipping.  I picked the right one, so no return!!

[chisag]

14 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I might be wrong, but for things like 3 woods and driving iron testing they tend to pick testers with higher swing speeds so that they can get the most out of the club.  If the tester can't produce effective shots they are generally removed from the test pool. 

 

... I mentioned awhile ago my snowbird playing partner had knock off clubs and I finally convinced him to go to a Callaway full bag fitting (convinced as in made the appointment for him LOL) and he ended up buying everything. While he hit all his new clubs better the star of the show was his Rogue ST Max 5 wood. He was hitting the ball higher, straighter and longer than his old knock off 3 wood. And after hearing him say he could not hit fairway woods, it has become one of his favorite clubs. Being a guy and after 2 years of constant suggestions he said "why didn't you tell me getting fit for new clubs would help me play better sooner?" 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

Good points and to be clear, I am talking about the shorter par 5's or those that are downhill and with prevailing tail winds.  I guess my whole thing with this thread is my feeling like I should have more carry spread between a 16* and 19* wood.  Most times I feel like I absolutely coin the 3w off the tee only to find it barely out 200 yards. Conversely, I'll sometimes thin it off the deck and get 220 yards.  The former is what started me wondering about a lower trajectory, lower spin shaft vs. the Alta CB .

All things being equal 3° isn’t a very big distance gap between clubs. Let’s look at irons. Most sets are 4*”° between clubs until you get to the longer irons then it’s 3°.  Gaps in those clubs are 10-16 yards. We are talking carry here. Rollout with them will vary based on golfers launch conditions and course conditions. So with a 3° in woods if you are hitting both  good you will see somewhere between 10-16 yard carry.

As for total yards again with the woods that’s going to vary as well based on the same things as the irons. Optimal launch and carry aren’t going to lead to a bunch of rollout unless playing on generous fairways. You will probably get more rollout with the 16 vice the 19 beaches of the ball flight.

A thin shot is going to travel further because it’s going to launch and fly lower and that’s going to cause it to rollout further once it hits the ground. This is why I say if you want a shot that’s just going to rollout to 200 or more going with a 13° could be an option because you are going to hit it lower and it’s going to have the potential to rollout more.

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

I might be wrong, but for things like 3 woods and driving iron testing they tend to pick testers with higher swing speeds so that they can get the most out of the club.  If the tester can't produce effective shots they are generally removed from the test pool. 

We've discussed this before under the "MGS Hit Squad Tester Profile" discussion, but here is a perfect example of where having that data as part of the review would be so very beneficial.  Being able to see how testers who have base swing profiles like mine hit any given club would be HUGE.  I get not having 20+ handicap, inconsistent strikers not test baby blades, but 3 woods?  

How about this as a discussion topic on an upcoming No Putts Given podcast?  Michael @GolfSpy MPR, do you have any input on podcast topics?  

[GaDawg]

2 hours ago, Kenny B said:

Could be.  Yes, I can mishit this Epic Max 3W.  I did it yesterday!!  But I hit it 5 times off the fairway and only had one mishit, and the ball still went straight down the middle of the fairway... just bouncing!    The others launched higher than any FW I have hit in recent memory, dead straight and long for me.  

I will say that last week I tried hitting it off a tee so that the ball was barely above the grass; that was no good!!  The ball launched much too high and no distance.  Off the grass is fine; tee no good.  It may be that I don't now how to hit FW/Hybrids off tees, since I never do it.  I always hit driver... or an iron.

Sounds like to me that you are coming down too steep when the ball is on a tee.

[chisag]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

here is a perfect example of where having that data as part of the review would be so very beneficial.  Being able to see how testers who have base swing profiles like mine hit any given club would be HUGE.  I get not having 20+ handicap, inconsistent strikers not test baby blades, but 3 woods? 

 

... Considering Persimmon drivers were 43.5" and most current 3 woods are 43.25-43.5" with a larger head there is no mystery why these are more difficult to hit well. Modern 5 woods are 42.5-42.75 so more manageable, especially for higher index players. Risking sounding like a broken record, the only testing of 3 woods from higher index or slower swing speeds I would like to see is a comparison to them hitting a 5 wood, and for some maybe a 7 wood. Most modern 3 woods have too large a head, too long a shaft and are much better suited to be hit off a tee, not from the fairway. It is one thing to go to a fitting and hit balls til you dial in a 3 wood and quite another to have 1 - 3 shots a round with no chance to correct your last swing. 

... Golf is a crazy game and everyone is unique so if you think a 3 wood could improve your scoring by all means give it a go. But after teaching many mid to higher index players and watching them on golf courses over the last 30 years I could count the number of players that should be using a 3 wood from the fairway on both hands and still have some fingers left over. Off the tee is a different story. And for Stu one of my MacGregor M85's next to a Sim2 Max 3 wood and a 5 wood:

[cnosil]

45 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

We've discussed this before under the "MGS Hit Squad Tester Profile" discussion, but here is a perfect example of where having that data as part of the review would be so very beneficial.  Being able to see how testers who have base swing profiles like mine hit any given club would be HUGE.  I get not having 20+ handicap, inconsistent strikers not test baby blades, but 3 woods?  

 

Yes, we have discussed this and I think it might be something they are working on with the new website that they mentioned a while back on their social media accounts. 

 It isn't a handicap limit, but more of an ability to hit the club.   The testers have to hit a certain number of good shots within parameter windows; distance isn't one of them, but they do limit the number of attempts to get those shots.   I was removed from the driver test in 2021 since it took me too many shots to get an acceptable number of shots due to excessively low spin numbers.  

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Yes, we have discussed this and I think it might be something they are working on with the new website that they discussed a while back on their social media accounts.   It isn't a handicap limit, but more of an ability to hit the club.   The testers have to hit a certain number of good shots within parameter windows; distance isn't one of them, but they do limit the number of attempts to get those shots.   I was removed from the driver test in 2021 since it took me too many shots to get an acceptable number of shots due to excessively low spin numbers.  

They need to stop testing with left dash (I kid, these were maybe Prov1s?)

[fixyurdivot]

5 minutes ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

They need to stop testing with left dash (I kid, these were maybe Prov1s?)

It was just outed that they used yellow balls... the mystery explained .

[fixyurdivot]

12 minutes ago, chisag said:

Golf is a crazy game and everyone is unique so if you think a 3 wood could improve your scoring by all means give it a go. But after teaching many mid to higher index players and watching them on golf courses over the last 30 years I could count the number of players that should be using a 3 wood from the fairway on both hands and still have some fingers left over.

Well, I would have hoped my True Spec fitter would have suggested this path if he felt a 3w should not be in my quiver.   I feel pretty confident there is a 3 wood + shaft combination out there that will outperform the G400 SFT.  Unless he cooked the books on the TSi2/Diamana Thump, theirs at least one.  

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

I will say, would one be better if playing a cut down 3w to say 42.5” vs stock length or would that cause head wright issues. If I were to get a fw, I’d either go cut down 3w/4w or lofted down 5w. Is there a theory on what kind of overall shaft stiffness to play? I know you can’t differentiate flexes  from other types of shafts. Some I’ve heard say go softer since you are going to swing easier.  Some say go very stiff to keep control. 

[chisag]

8 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Well, I would have hoped my True Spec fitter would have suggested this path if he felt a 3w should not be in my quiver.   I feel pretty confident there is a 3 wood + shaft combination out there that will outperform the G400 SFT.  Unless he cooked the books on the TSi2/Diamana Thump, theirs at least one.  

 

... Again amigo, I am not trying to dissuade anyone from trying any club and think we should all exhaust every possible club scenario's we can afford. I am just educating from experience. Of course all the fitters want to sell you clubs so they would always have a decent player hit a 3 wood. Both Cally and TM had me hit 3 woods but at least agreed the 5 wood was a better choice for me "at this time". LOL I am 69 so when were they thinking it would be the time? I would also repeat I am playing in the desert with very tight lies and sometimes basically hard pan and lush fairways provide better conditions for hitting a 3 wood from the fairway. 

[chisag]

15 minutes ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

I will say, would one be better if playing a cut down 3w to say 42.5” vs stock length or would that cause head wright issues. If I were to get a fw, I’d either go cut down 3w/4w or lofted down 5w. Is there a theory on what kind of overall shaft stiffness to play? I know you can’t differentiate flexes  from other types of shafts. Some I’ve heard say go softer since you are going to swing easier.  Some say go very stiff to keep control. 

 

... All good ideas.  Lofting down a 5 wood is the best of the bunch but you may find success with a HL too. Only way to find out is demo them or get fitted. Shafts are just so very unique to every player and while I prefer a softer flex in my fairway woods I like a stiffer flex in my DI. It all depends on your particular swing and what kind of feel you like. Some might like a softer flex for control as it forces them to swing with tempo and others a stiffer flex because they like to attack their fairway woods so no real rule of thumb. 

[Kenny B]

7 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... All good ideas.  Lofting down a 5 wood is the best of the bunch but you may find success with a HL too. Only way to find out is demo them or get fitted. Shafts are just so very unique to every player and while I prefer a softer flex in my fairway woods I like a stiffer flex in my DI. It all depends on your particular swing and what kind of feel you like. Some might like a softer flex for control as it forces them to swing with tempo and others a stiffer flex because they like to attack their fairway woods so no real rule of thumb. 

I have been playing regular flex in all my clubs, but I have tried senior flex is a few clubs.  Two years ago I tried a senior flex Epic Flash hybrid and it was horrible.  Maybe I just wasn't used to the difference.  For my Epic Max 3W and Heavenwood I opted for the same shaft as my driver with same weight but in a senior flex and it feels so good.  Makes me wonder if I should try the senior flex in my driver as well.   Probably so, since I will be 75 next week.

[Kenny B]

55 minutes ago, GaDawg said:

Sounds like to me that you are coming down too steep when the ball is on a tee.

Could be... I have been spending a lot of time hitting balls with my irons lately.  However, I am a sweeper; not a digger.

[GaDawg]

15 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Could be... I have been spending a lot of time hitting balls with my irons lately.  However, I am a sweeper; not a digger.

I understand and 99% of the time I sweep the ball too. Occasionally, I do get too steep on my 3 wood or hybrid when teed up. It was just a thought and hope you get it figured out.

Edited May 8, 2022 by GaDawg

[chisag]

11 minutes ago, GaDawg said:

I understand and 99% of the time I sweep the ball too. Occasionally, I do get too steep on my 3 wood or hybrid when teed up. It was just a thought and hope you get it figured out.

 

... One of the many conundrums of golf my southern friend. Most that struggle are too steep off the tee and too shallow from the fairway attempting to lift the ball from the ground and end up hitting it thin or topping it. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 hours ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

I will say, would one be better if playing a cut down 3w to say 42.5” vs stock length or would that cause head wright issues. If I were to get a fw, I’d either go cut down 3w/4w or lofted down 5w. Is there a theory on what kind of overall shaft stiffness to play? I know you can’t differentiate flexes  from other types of shafts. Some I’ve heard say go softer since you are going to swing easier.  Some say go very stiff to keep control. 

Yes it’s going to cause swingweight to change but whether that’s going to negatively impact a golfer or not will depend on the sensitivity to the change by the golfer, but that can be fixed with lead tape, hotmelt or buying a new weight for the head if available. 
 

If the shorter shaft helps get the center of the face to the ball and with the right delivery to optimize the launch characteristics then going that route could be worth it. Hard to say yes or no because each person reacts differently.

Flex should be taken out of the equation. It’s about what weight of the shaft works best. For some it could be same weight and shaft as the driver, for someone else it could be same shaft as driver but in one weight class heavier. For others it could be a completely different shaft profile. It all depends on th persons swing and how they deliver the club. Someone with ott will need different approach than someone who swings from the inside. Someone with a neutral aoa may need something different than someone who is hitting a couple degrees down.

Pick some of the recent pga tour winners and you will see same shaft but heavier maybe even tipped a bit, different shafts completely, some with similar profile but stiffer tip

 

 

. 

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

17 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... All good ideas.  Lofting down a 5 wood is the best of the bunch but you may find success with a HL too. Only way to find out is demo them or get fitted. Shafts are just so very unique to every player and while I prefer a softer flex in my fairway woods I like a stiffer flex in my DI. It all depends on your particular swing and what kind of feel you like. Some might like a softer flex for control as it forces them to swing with tempo and others a stiffer flex because they like to attack their fairway woods so no real rule of thumb. 

Well cool. I found a tour speed zone 5w on 2nd swing that is 42.25”. I may just need to pull the trigger. Can only imagine this would give better turf interaction than the super hybrid with a little more carry. 

[fixyurdivot]

As I mentioned in my "How'd You Play" post yesterday, I ended my round racing from #18 over to the PING, Callaway, & Taylormade fitting tents on the driving range.  I had no idea they were scheduled to be there and was elated they were.  I was thinking my best opportunity to test products was going to be while over in WA for the PNW Spy Meet-up.... which is next month !!!! 

Anyway, first up was Callaway and the Rogue series, which unlike the Epic series, now offers a 3HL. Not sure what LM system they were using, but it was a small device on a stand and linked through their iPad.  I'd not seen it before and should have asked but didn't. My baseline with the G400 was 172 carry (range balls). We started with the Rogue Max ST Max HL (16.5*) and the Tensei Blue 65R and it produced similar slight fade ball flight and trajectory with a avg carry of 176.  We also tried the ST MaxD (similar draw bias as the G400 SFT) with the stock PX Cypher 50 but it wasn't any longer and was tending to balloon shots.  Last, we tried the ST LS in both the 14.5* and 16.5* and the Tensei Blue.  No further distance on the HL but the 14.5*  produced the longest carry of 189... but I couldn't repeat it.

I then moved to the PING booth and, using Trackman, my G400 baseline was 174 carry.  We tried the G425 Max (nominal 14.5*) and SFT (nominal 16*) with the Alta CB in both stiff and regular.  Both the Max and SFT were within a yard of each other at 177.  For an experiment, he put a 44 inch shaft (don't recall model) on the Max and it did get a couple right at 180 but dispersion started to suffer.  While waiting for the TM folks to finish up with another customer, we had a great discussion about PING, the fitters history with them and the recent complications the company went through from the pandemic.  He shared some interesting info about the Solheim family and their operating philosophy.

Last was the TM booth and the Stealth's.  Their TM has my baseline at 173 carry. We tried the Stealth 3HL first with the stock Ventus Red.  I must say, it felt good... quite a different feel and sound. It was getting an average carry of 175.  We then tried the Stealth Plus (15*) with the V-Steel sole plate and the PX Haz Smoke Red shaft.  Feel wise, this one stood out.  It was noticeably heavier, more solid feeling much like the G400. My first handful of shot were all carbon copies of each other, carrying 178 and bouncing up to the 200 yard marker.  

Now completely swung out, I drank a bottle of water and debated on taking advantage of the small discount that was being offered by the OEM's and the club pro.  But my willpower won out and I chose to wait.  Ultimately, none of the options were yielding more than ~5 yards over my gamer.  What I did find is that both the TM and, to a lesser degree, the Callaway felt better off the face than the PING.  I also like the feel of both the Ventus and PX shafts.... a bit more so than the Tensei Blue.  Lastly, the HL models were producing the most consistent shot patterns...  which is pretty spot on with the advice a number of you have been providing .

My next test is going to be to get some SC200 data with set my 3w loft to (17*) and then put it's shaft on my 5w (18* & 19*) to see what that yields.  I did a similar test while in AZ but it was pretty windy and worth a redo.  If the modified 5w can match the 3w with more consistent strike/ball flight, I'll then look into... hell, I don't really know... swing speed training comes to mind .