Rule Change Needed? Free Lift and Drop from a Divot?

[StrokerAce]

Not a fan of Paige really, but she could be on to something here:

 

 

What do you think? 
Did Westwood catch a bad break after hitting a great drive on 18? 

Not sure about you guys, but when I'm not playing in a match I definitely move it out of any fairway "holes" when I find one. (And I say holes because these are rarely smooth and clean sand-filled divots LOL)

[cnosil]

Not a fan of Paige really, but she could be on to something here:
 
 
What do you think? 
Did Westwood catch a bad break after hitting a great drive on 18? 

Not sure about you guys, but when I'm not playing in a match I definitely move it out of any fairway "holes" when I find one. (And I say holes because these are rarely smooth and clean sand-filled divots LOL)

When is a divot no longer a divot?

[RickyBobby_PR]

This discussion has occurred several times and to develop a rule what is considered a divot would be difficult. It’s the run of the green and golf wasnt intended to have perfect lies

Nobody thinks they need to put a ball back when they get a good break

[Golfspy_CG2]

Yep, it is often discussed and points made on both sides. But yeah, the big thing is how to define what's a divot and is one that is fresh and unrepaired treated differently than one that is a day or two old and "healed"

Also one thing that I find funny when a shot ends up in a divot.  The announcers react like it has just fallen into some abyss.    And usually usually to the player, it's just a shrug of the shoulders,  as they make ball first contact 99.999% of the time, and usually hit a pretty good shot.   Would be interesting at some point to hear Bones or John Woods comments when they are following a group and see it happen, hear what they say that there quys thought about it when it happened.

 

[StrokerAce]

Yeah - maybe golf could think about changing some rules.... but, then again.

[DiscipleofPenick]

Yes this is dumb. Let Westwood move the ball over half an inch and play on. Stupid oversight by the USGA on the rules. At least it was filled and leveled and not like the potholes we see on public tracks.

An easy way to say what's a divot is either if a player is in an area designed to have grass and there is not grass under the ball AND/OR any part of the ball comes to rest below the intended playing surface.

Take Dead Aim

[cnosil]

An easy way to say what's a divot is either if a player is in an area designed to have grass and there is not grass under the ball AND/OR any part of the ball comes to rest below the intended playing surface.

The courses you play must be immaculate. I would be taking drops all day if that was the basis for the decision.

[RickyBobby_PR]

53 minutes ago, DiscipleofPenick said:

Yes this is dumb. Let Westwood move the ball over half an inch and play on. Stupid oversight by the USGA on the rules. At least it was filled and leveled and not like the potholes we see on public tracks.

An easy way to say what's a divot is either if a player is in an area designed to have grass and there is not grass under the ball AND/OR any part of the ball comes to rest below the intended playing surface.

Take Dead Aim


 

I have lots of courses here that have spots where grass is designated to be but there isn’t any and some courses the fairways may not even be grass. 
 

If anyone wants to have a clean lie they should play indoors

[hckymeyer]

I agree with the can of worms that would opened up by trying to define what a divot is.  It's one of those situations where when you see it, you know it and it's obvious.  But there is a wide gray area there and much like we used to have to Tiger proof courses, I feel like now we need to Reed proof rules.

I did see a great tweet from Alfonso Ribero though.  The reason we rake bunkers is so the people that are first out and the people that are last out can play under the same conditions (that are able to be controlled)  So why are the people that played best that week punished by having more divots to avoid compared to people who played worse and went out first?

[cnosil]

I agree with the can of worms that would opened up by trying to define what a divot is.  It's one of those situations where when you see it, you know it and it's obvious.  But there is a wide gray area there and much like we used to have to Tiger proof courses, I feel like now we need to Reed proof rules.
I did see a great tweet from Alfonso Ribero though.  The reason we rake bunkers is so the people that are first out and the people that are last out can play under the same conditions (that are able to be controlled)  So why are the people that played best that week punished by having more divots to avoid compared to people who played worse and went out first?

What a about yesterday’s or last weeks divots?

The only real solution would be preferred lies in the fairway. If you are in the fairway you get to roll the ball within say 6” of where it stopped....always.

[Shapotomous]

2 hours ago, DiscipleofPenick said:

.......
An easy way to say what's a divot is either if a player is in an area designed to have grass and there is not grass under the ball AND/OR any part of the ball comes to rest below the intended playing surface.
 

PR would be drooling over all the lie improvements he could do with that definition!!   

I thought the tourney's had volunteers that fill the divots between groups so it's leveled out and they aren't hitting from a crater.  As mentioned they hit the ball first so it doesn't impact their shot very much.

[DiscipleofPenick]

The courses you play must be immaculate. I would be taking drops all day if that was the basis for the decision.

It's the exact opposite, as I play a ton of public golf and there's gopher holes dug by weekend hacks at almost all courses. And those bare spots would be marked in white lines Ground Under Repair if they even existed at tournament level establishments, country clubs, and resorts. There should be leeway in the rules for this discretion. High end courses take care of these things. The public do not.

Take Dead Aim

[DaveP043]

5 hours ago, DiscipleofPenick said:

Stupid oversight by the USGA on the rules.

Not an oversight at all, they took a hard look at this situation, and decided against making any kind of rule change,

4 hours ago, hckymeyer said:

I did see a great tweet from Alfonso Ribero though.  The reason we rake bunkers is so the people that are first out and the people that are last out can play under the same conditions (that are able to be controlled)  So why are the people that played best that week punished by having more divots to avoid compared to people who played worse and went out first?

We rake bunkers to care for the course, and to allow the players behind us an opportunity to enjoy similar conditions to what we face.  We replace divots, or fill them with sand, for exactly the same reason.  People do fail at times to rake bunkers properly, just as they fail to replace divots.  In either case, we play the ball as it lies.

[CarlH]

This debate has been argued ad nauseam as long as I can remember -- from the pros to the hackers -- all have an opinion.  I've been in my share of divots, from craters to sand-filled -- sometimes it hoses me, but typically, I just focus on striking the ball better and usually come out just fine.  I personally don't think this rule will ever change and I'm okay with that.  Without a doubt, many will agree and many will disagree -- and we have years of this argument to see that.

[ZenGolfer]

8 hours ago, StrokerAce said:

Not a fan of Paige really, but she could be on to something here:

 

 

What do you think? 
Did Westwood catch a bad break after hitting a great drive on 18? 

Not sure about you guys, but when I'm not playing in a match I definitely move it out of any fairway "holes" when I find one. (And I say holes because these are rarely smooth and clean sand-filled divots LOL)

I say play it as it lies.  No one ever said golf was fair.  Anyone I play with, if you tried to move your ball out of a fairway divot, they would make you move it back or give you a penalty stroke.

[fixyurdivot]

I doubt this rule ever gets changed though I support the change.  The folks I play with move balls out of divots. If there are rocks or roots that are likely to get hit we move from those as well.  Yes, the dimes and quarters are serious money but not worth injury or damage to gear.

[StrokerAce]

I'll give Westwood credit. He took it in stride like a champ.

Also was surprised to hear he had won 22 times by the time he was BAD's age... impressive!

 

As expected, Westwood took the whole thing in stride. He was not asked about the bad luck in his post-tournament press conference, but he did respond to a tweet on DivotGate Sunday evening.

 

If anyone knows about golf being unfair, it’s Westwood, which is why this reaction is not surprising in the least. His ball has found a divot hole before and it likely will again, be it on a Thursday morning while no one is watching or in the final pairing on Sunday. If and when it does, Westwood will step up, strike it and move on to the next shot, fair or unfair.

 

 

 

 

 

[TR1PTIK]

Play it as it lies. IMO, if you want to be a good ball striker, learn to play out of a divot. 

[Kenny B]

This topic gets brought up every year or two, usually when there is a rule change and divots didn't make the cut... again, or a pro gets hosed in a tournament.  Westwood didn't get hosed.  He had a nice sand-filled divot to hit out of and made a nice shot onto the green.  

There are divots and then there are "divots".  Many courses we play don't have the luxury of sand-filled divots, especially this past year.  It's not that people occasionally don't fill divots, they never fill divots.  Our carts don't even have sand bottles anymore, and we don't have rakes for the bunkers either.  It's one thing to hit out of a sand-filled divot, it's quite another to hit out of a crater in the middle of the fairway, half the ball below below grade, with the divot angled 45 degrees to the direction of the green.  Now that's being hosed. 

My view is that's "ground needing repair", or ground under repair that hasn't been repaired yet.  As for when is a divot no longer a divot argument... it's a divot when your playing partner says it's a divot.  After all, the playing partner is there to protect the field.

[TR1PTIK]

10 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

This topic gets brought up every year or two, usually when there is a rule change and divots didn't make the cut... again, or a pro gets hosed in a tournament.  Westwood didn't get hosed.  He had a nice sand-filled divot to hit out of and made a nice shot onto the green.  

There are divots and then there are "divots".  Many courses we play don't have the luxury of sand-filled divots, especially this past year.  It's not that people occasionally don't fill divots, they never fill divots.  Our carts don't even have sand bottles anymore, and we don't have rakes for the bunkers either.  It's one thing to hit out of a sand-filled divot, it's quite another to hit out of a crater in the middle of the fairway, half the ball below below grade, with the divot angled 45 degrees to the direction of the green.  Now that's being hosed. 

My view is that's "ground needing repair", or ground under repair that hasn't been repaired yet.  As for when is a divot no longer a divot argument... it's a divot when your playing partner says it's a divot.  After all, the playing partner is there to protect the field.

A fair and balanced approach. I like it!  

[DaveP043]

23 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

it's a divot when your playing partner says it's a divot.  After all, the playing partner is there to protect the field.

This is difficult, we're all going to interpret this differently.  Remember the "backstopping" conversation not long ago, Jimmy Walker said that sometimes the ball was left in place to help a player you like, and other times it was marked to avoid helping someone you don't like.  Divots would be similar, I bet, the player's approval to get relief would often depend on being well-liked by his peers.  Every other relief situation has a pretty straightforward definition, you'd have to have one for divot holes if you want to make a rule allowing relief.

[StrokerAce]

The thing that is curious though is that when a ball is on the green the surface is treated as though it must be pristine and you are allowed to adjust it, thus giving more weight and importance to a putt vs a ball in the fairway where you expect to be rewarded for a good shot.

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

The thing that is curious though is that when a ball is on the green the surface is treated as though it must be pristine and you are allowed to adjust it, thus giving more weight and importance to a putt vs a ball in the fairway where you expect to be rewarded for a good shot.

The rules have increasingly recognized the putting green as a special place, compared to the rest of the golf course.  This is almost certainly due to the increasing quality of the surface available on most greens due to improvements in equipment, agronomy, chemicals, water control, and other factors.  And it has really only happened over the last 60 years or so.  Prior to that you couldn't improve your line of play on the green, you couldn't lift or clean your ball on the green, you just played it down.  Watch old films of putting at Augusta, you find faster greens today at most local muni courses.

While fairways have certainly improved for many of the same reasons, the rulesmakers haven't seen fit to tell us that we should expect perfection when we (occasionally) hit a fairway.  And to do so would throw out one of the basic foundations of the rules, play the course as you find it.

 

[cnosil]

The rules have increasingly recognized the putting green as a special place, compared to the rest of the golf course.  This is almost certainly due to the increasing quality of the surface available on most greens due to improvements in equipment, agronomy, chemicals, water control, and other factors.  And it has really only happened over the last 60 years or so.  Prior to that you couldn't improve your line of play on the green, you couldn't lift or clean your ball on the green, you just played it down.  Watch old films of putting at Augusta, you find faster greens today at most local muni courses.
While fairways have certainly improved for many of the same reasons, the rulesmakers haven't seen fit to tell us that we should expect perfection when we (occasionally) hit a fairway.  And to do so would throw out one of the basic foundations of the rules, play the course as you find it.
 

Ah yes days of old. Let’s go back to the stymie! Golf the way it was intended

[DaveP043]

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Ah yes days of old. Let’s go back to the stymie! Golf the way it was intended

I didn't say all of the changes are bad, just that I think changing the rules regarding divot holes would be unnecessary, unwise, and unenforceable.

[cnosil]

I didn't say all of the changes are bad, just that I think changing the rules regarding divot holes would be unnecessary, unwise, and unenforceable.

I agree with you. When you were talking about how the greens used to be and. It being able to pick up the ball, it made me think of the rollback golf thoughts and how courses are become irrelevant which made me think about how stymies

[DaveP043]

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I agree with you. When you were talking about how the greens used to be and. It being able to pick up the ball, it made me think of the rollback golf thoughts and how courses are become irrelevant which made me think about how stymies

I read an article Tufts wrote for the USGA in about 1959 or 1960, wondering whether the Rules were getting too soft, based on the changes to the rules for the putting green.  That's what I was reminded of, and maybe in a couple of decades we'll be asking the same thing if divot relief is actually approved.

[downlowkey]

When I was kid, several balls in my range bucket were devoted to practicing less than ideal lies - rough, divots, etc. - because they are inevitable.

Playing from a divot is an opportunity to test your grit, one of the things that makes the game so very special. It’s meant to challenge character, build resolve and ultimately, take your lumps like a gentleman.

Here’s a thought exercise for those expecting eternally perfect fairway lies: In exchange for free fairway divot relief, would it also be reasonable for a playing partner to step on your ball that’s sitting up in the rough - to make sure you get what you truly deserve?

Life is about maintaining balance and golf is one of the few remaining activities that mimics the randomness of our journey, in 18 hole doses of good and bad breaks. I’ll continue to take the challenging path of playing the ball as it lies. Hopefully the result will be more grace in those gritty situations we inevitably encounter outside the game and also more appreciation for the occasional good breaks I didn’t deserve.

[JDHolmes]

No. We play the course as we find it with the rule variations as they exist. What then, would constitute a "divot"? Yesterdays? Three days ago? The one filled last week with sand that hasnt grown in? The one where the grass was replaced and the ball sits on the replaced grass.

If we"re going to that, why not lift, clean, and place every shot?

Sent from my SM-G950U using MyGolfSpy mobile app

[Tarheelvolvo]

Hey Guys - Quick note. First time I tried to Merge a thread - I started a very similar thread today into this one and thought I was doing it correctly, but I did it backwards (copied the OG thread, when I should have copied the new thread). Apologies to the members who were commenting on this topic previously and hopefully you can forgive the oversight as I still learn all the particular nuances of the system!

 

Regarding the topic at hand - I'm in the camp of "play it where it lies." It sucks that happened to Lee, but it could have been anybody and we all have to deal with it. I realize it's even more prevalent on the Tour given there is a "landing zone" that can get pretty chewed up by Sunday of a tournament, but that's what separates the pros from the joes - they can still get on the green from that divot while we'd be in the woods or bunker, haha!