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Rule Change Needed? Free Lift and Drop from a Divot?


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1 hour ago, Brinkie said:

I guess everyone is missing my point.  If you stripe a drive down the middle of the fairway and land in a divot 275 yards away that cannot be seen from the tee, why should you be punished for that when someone else in the group can drive it into another fairway and find a perfect lie and line because it's an area others haven't hit from frequently

We are not missing your point.   Perhaps you can write the rule;  how do you definitively determine without a doubt that a divot is no longer a divot. 

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So many worried about a situation they may experience once in a blue moon.

I think the last time i ended up in a divot was 2018

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21 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

So many worried about a situation they may experience once in a blue moon.

I think the last time i ended up in a divot was 2018

Been playing this game for more than 20 years and don’t remember ever being in one!

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

Been playing this game for more than 20 years and don’t remember ever being in one!

Yeah. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve been in a divot in the 24ish years I’ve been playing and I don’t always play top notch courses.  9 hole course I play back home is in a public park. I’ve never been in a divot there

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On 4/24/2021 at 10:37 AM, cnosil said:

We are not missing your point.   Perhaps you can write the rule;  how do you definitively determine without a doubt that a divot is no longer a divot. 

If a ball in the fairway lies in a depression without grass underneath then the player may take the nearest point of relief no closer to the hole.....done!  Although I am sure you will still have issue with this.

Golf without a cigar has not been a good use of time.

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16 minutes ago, Brinkie said:

If a ball in the fairway lies in a depression without grass underneath then the player may take the nearest point of relief no closer to the hole.....done!  Although I am sure you will still have issue with this.

What about if your ball comes to rest on the pelt of grass from a divot that's been recently replaced in the divot? The ball's not in a depression but it's still in a divot. By your rule, there's no relief allowed for that.

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1 hour ago, Brinkie said:

If a ball in the fairway lies in a depression without grass underneath then the player may take the nearest point of relief no closer to the hole.....done!  Although I am sure you will still have issue with this.

So you get relief from areas on the fairway that have no grass and aren't divots?  How much grass is necessary to no longer consider it a divot.   

Make the rule Patrick Reed proof. 

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16 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

What about if your ball comes to rest on the pelt of grass from a divot that's been recently replaced in the divot? The ball's not in a depression but it's still in a divot. By your rule, there's no relief allowed for that.

Sounds right and very clear. If it is on grass and not a depression, no relief. 

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15 hours ago, cnosil said:

So you get relief from areas on the fairway that have no grass and aren't divots?  How much grass is necessary to no longer consider it a divot.   

Make the rule Patrick Reed proof. 

That is not what he said. He said there is a depression and no grass. Similar to what I posted earlier- the ball lies below fairway height and no grass. 

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15 hours ago, cnosil said:

Make the rule Patrick Reed proof. 

This is what I’m waiting for. Just want to see someone wrote a rule that’s clear cut.

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3 minutes ago, revkev said:

ce we are wanting golf to be so fair how about a rule that says that if I hook a ball that is heading out of bounds but hits a tree or some other object and stays in bounds I must proceed as if it went out of bounds?  Stroke and distance for me. 

That is a whole other topic!

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, revkev said:

Since we are wanting golf to be so fair how about a rule that says that if I hook a ball that is heading out of bounds but hits a tree or some other object and stays in bounds I must proceed as if it went out of bounds?  Stroke and distance for me. 

 

Golf is not fair in that you do not always get the results that you would normally expect out of every shot.  Sometimes you hit a perfect putt and it catches something that you missed on your line and kicks just off or the cup is cut funny.  Sometimes you pull or push your putt but since you miss read it, it goes in.  Sometimes you hit a terrible drive into a fairway bunker but the bunker is flat and you get a great lie, sometimes the ball  plugs in a lip.  How about the drive that I striped down the middle but it stopped on the down slope of a fairway mound because it they had just turned the sprinklers off and it was wet?

 

I play in a league that simply says play by the rules, play them down, putt them out unless its cart path only and then it's lift clean and place through the green.  I play in another league where its roll them in the fairway or move them if they are by a tree root - and since it's match play there are give me's. Ironically that league plays on a course with better conditions than the one that has the play it down/putt it out rule.

 

I don't see anyone being able to devise a "fair" divot rule.  What seems clear to you might not be to be and certainly won't be under the heat of competition when someone needs a break and will call it into question.  I'm not fond of divots anymore than the next guy.  But, I also know that I've received plenty enough good breaks to more than offset those few times that I end up in a divot.

 

Good luck fighting this one, it's always fun each time we have the discussion - I've been here 10 years and seen 10 or so of these.  Nothing has changed in the rule book yet though. 🙂

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21 hours ago, cnosil said:

So you get relief from areas on the fairway that have no grass and aren't divots?  How much grass is necessary to no longer consider it a divot.   

Make the rule Patrick Reed proof. 

It is no less vague than half the current rule book. As I guessed you still have issue with it because it differs from your opinion.  I am just trying to take some of the luck out of the game and reward good shots in the "fair"way

Golf without a cigar has not been a good use of time.

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23 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

What about if your ball comes to rest on the pelt of grass from a divot that's been recently replaced in the divot? The ball's not in a depression but it's still in a divot. By your rule, there's no relief allowed for that.

If the grass pelt was put back that is way better than a divot.  the ball can settle in the front of the divot where it does not have free passage out, not so if the grass is there.  Also the ball is much less likely to stop on than exact square than it is in an unrepaired or poorly filled divot.

Golf without a cigar has not been a good use of time.

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1 hour ago, revkev said:

Since we are wanting golf to be so fair how about a rule that says that if I hook a ball that is heading out of bounds but hits a tree or some other object and stays in bounds I must proceed as if it went out of bounds?  Stroke and distance for me. 

 

Golf is not fair in that you do not always get the results that you would normally expect out of every shot.  Sometimes you hit a perfect putt and it catches something that you missed on your line and kicks just off or the cup is cut funny.  Sometimes you pull or push your putt but since you miss read it, it goes in.  Sometimes you hit a terrible drive into a fairway bunker but the bunker is flat and you get a great lie, sometimes the ball  plugs in a lip.  How about the drive that I striped down the middle but it stopped on the down slope of a fairway mound because it they had just turned the sprinklers off and it was wet?

 

I play in a league that simply says play by the rules, play them down, putt them out unless its cart path only and then it's lift clean and place through the green.  I play in another league where its roll them in the fairway or move them if they are by a tree root - and since it's match play there are give me's. Ironically that league plays on a course with better conditions than the one that has the play it down/putt it out rule.

 

I don't see anyone being able to devise a "fair" divot rule.  What seems clear to you might not be to be and certainly won't be under the heat of competition when someone needs a break and will call it into question.  I'm not fond of divots anymore than the next guy.  But, I also know that I've received plenty enough good breaks to more than offset those few times that I end up in a divot.

 

Good luck fighting this one, it's always fun each time we have the discussion - I've been here 10 years and seen 10 or so of these.  Nothing has changed in the rule book yet though. 🙂

Trees and bunker lips are part of the course. The rules were recently changed to allow tamping down of greens, so if you don’t, that is on you. Divots are man made damage to the course. Easy to justify the distinction. 

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16 hours ago, LICC said:

Trees and bunker lips are part of the course. The rules were recently changed to allow tamping down of greens, so if you don’t, that is on you. Divots are man made damage to the course. Easy to justify the distinction. 

Not to be a pain but I don't think it is so easy as you do - I live in a place where golf is played year round.  In order to keep conditions as playable as possible grasses are changed over in November and then the Bermuda grows back in late April early May.  During those times of the year - this time of the year specifically it is very difficult to distinguish between what might be a healing divot and what might be bermuda starting to over run the dying overseed.

I'd just assume live with hitting the ball out of a divot every other year or so when I'm in a competition and happen to get in one rather than have a rule that will surely add to lengthy discussions about what may or may not be a divot at a stage where relief would be allowable.

I will continue to maintain that breaks such as landing in a divot occur and that breaks such as hitting trees happen also.  In the course of one round a person may get more bad or good breaks.  Over time they even out.  How one handles the bad breaks is also a part of the challenge.

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This discussion comes down to how you individually view the game.  If you are playing in an organized, sanctioned event then by all means  hit out of the divot, and meticulously adhere to the USGA rulebook.  The point is that so few people who play golf are ever going to play in a sanctioned event of any kind that it really shouldn't  matter to most people me included.  Or if you view the entirety of the USGA rulebook as the 11th commandment, then again by all means hit out of that divot in the middle of the fairway you find yourself in on your weekend round. I'm not going to.

I've eluded to this many times, play to have fun.  I was glad to see in the March 2021 Golf Magazine that they are beginning to make mention of this theme.  It was 20 things to love....  

16. You can play by your own rules

It was great when the USGA decided to roll back the Rules of Golf a bit in 2019. Take it as a hint: Golf doesn’t have to be played by the book every single time! Hit it where you can’t find it? Feel free to drop wherever, even in the middle of the fairway. Want to make this par 4 even more drivable? Bounce around between tee boxes. Unless you’re playing in an event, feel free to make this game even more your own.

 

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  • 1 month later...

Very old argument,will continue well past I am dead. I replace divots, even partial ones, drilled into me by the starters and senior golfers I played with as a junior.  I learned to carry sand n seed bottles to fill the h(M)oles still left, have cultivated flat bottoms for the bottles to insure the sanded divot is level with the playing surface, my course is rather hilly (250+ elevation change) and someone whose ball is expired or about to expire at my divot will roll onto grass most of the time. We play at a country club who has a membership that has "sand parties" to fill divots, assigned a hole per week, in season, the junior golfers also are assigned a hole per week during their summer league. I also fill divots on the hole I live adjunct to if I am enjoying a non golf walk of my back yard from the 100 yard marker to the 150 yard markers as that is the span of my yard. If it is a habit, it is not a chore, minor effort over time yields major results. Hit em on the short grass and enjoy the cathedral that is the great outdoors.

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  • 1 month later...

1. Move ball from divot in fairway

There may be no worse feeling in golf than striping a drive down the middle of the fairway, walking up to your ball, and seeing it sitting squarely in a divot. That’s golf, some people say, but Perez disagrees. That’s the first rule he would change.

“If there’s sand in it, it’s ground under repair. Technically, it’s ground in repair,” Perez says. “I’ve done my job. I’ve hit the fairway, why do I get penalized to be in a divot?”

https://golf.com/instruction/rules/2-rules-pga-tour-winner-would-change/

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I'm afraid that the opinion of a perennial loose canon like Pat Perez really doesn't add a lot of weight to any logical discussion.  When Pat can define a divot hole adequately, we can start talking about it.

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9 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm afraid that the opinion of a perennial loose canon like Pat Perez really doesn't add a lot of weight to any logical discussion.  When Pat can define a divot hole adequately, we can start talking about it.

https://www.liveabout.com/what-is-a-divot-1560823
 

In golf, a "divot" is a piece of turf that is cut out of the ground in the course of playing a stroke. (Divot can also refer to the hole left where the turf was gouged out.)”

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3 minutes ago, LICC said:

https://www.liveabout.com/what-is-a-divot-1560823
 

In golf, a "divot" is a piece of turf that is cut out of the ground in the course of playing a stroke. (Divot can also refer to the hole left where the turf was gouged out.)”

I'd suggest that its a bit clearer to use "divot hole", since divot can quite clearly mean something other than the hole.  You already get relief from divots, as in the primary definition, they're Loose Impediments.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Bringing this back up as it has been the subject of a debate between Crossfield and Stagner.  Enough that they will be debating on an upcoming Hack it Out podcast.   Been reading the banter online and there are some interesting points and how far should you take this.  For example, two players are in the fairway on a long par 5 both with the same distance to the hole.   One has a perfect lie sitting up and can hit driver,  the other not in a divot but in a lie that only allows an iron.  The lie sitting up was man made because the mower missed that spot. Should the person with the poor lie get to improve their lie because they are at a disadvantage?  How about balls that are in the rough and one is sitting deep and one is sitting up?    Should we just reward player that hit the fairway by letting them play the ball up and being able to roll the ball?   This eliminates the evaluation of what is a divot and what isn’t?
 

 I think the best option is allowing the players preferred lies in the fairway and play it as it lies in the rough. Fairway and non fairway are defined well in the rules and by playing preferred lies we don’t have to write an encompassing definition of what is and isn’t a divot.  
 

anyway, not trying to stir up a hornets nest, but provide an update on a podcast that will discuss this very topic.  

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4 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 I think the best option is allowing the players preferred lies in the fairway and play it as it lies in the rough.

This is a common local rule in after work twilight leagues.

Many casual players adopt it on their own.

At the very least, I think that it's worth considering.

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On 3/26/2021 at 5:52 PM, CarlH said:

pick it up...it's a gimme

 

Just violated Adam's No Putts Given rule.  Betcha didn't know that NFL referees can be substituted for PGA rule officials.

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23 hours ago, cnosil said:

 I think the best option is allowing the players preferred lies in the fairway and play it as it lies in the rough. Fairway and non fairway are defined well in the rules and by playing preferred lies we don’t have to write an encompassing definition of what is and isn’t a divot.

That’s the right answer to me, but I’m not holding my breath the rules will change. We strive to hit fairways expecting a good lie, and shouldn’t find our ball in a divot purely by chance. There are free drops of 1 club length or more from cart paths, ground under repair, casual water, embedded ball (in a pitch mark), designated sensitive areas (e.g. new grass, young trees, flowers) some immovable man made objects and some other situations in golf, but not a fairway divot?

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I hardly EVER play in an actual golf competition, so I don’t ever worry about the fairway divot. If I end-up in one, I roll it out of the divot and play my next shot. Simple.

Also, if I’m in an area with a bunch of roots, or even and area that has rocks and pebbles, I move my ball. I’m not going to injure myself, and I’m not going to ruin a golf club…

The rules are there for competition, so if I’m playing competitively I’ll follow them, otherwise, I’m having fun.

Although, I am still taking relief from rocks and roots in a tournament. I call it unplayable and move along.

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Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50D/54V/58D:Nippon:Modus 130 stiff, +1”

Putter:  :edel-golf-1: EAS 1.0

Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX

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2 hours ago, LICC said:

The “mower missed a spot” relief? Lol. Well that is creative …

I thought the point was interesting and relevant.  One of The arguments for relief from divots is the it was man made and puts the person at a disadvantage when they hit a fairway.   Should someone be allowed to get a more favorable lie if they are in the fairway?  Aren’t they entitled to have the same conditions?  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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