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Rule Change Needed? Free Lift and Drop from a Divot?


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14 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I thought the point was interesting and relevant.  One of The arguments for relief from divots is the it was man made and puts the person at a disadvantage when they hit a fairway.   Should someone be allowed to get a more favorable lie if they are in the fairway?  Aren’t they entitled to have the same conditions?  

It is an interesting take, but the point is a made up unrealistic hypothetical. I've never seen a missed mowed spot on the fairway that impacted a lie to anywhere near the extent of a ball in a divot hole. But to the general concept- the course set-up is not man-made damage to the course. It may be a good set-up or a bad set-up, but that is the course set-up for the day. A divot hole is man-made damage to the ground. A justifiable distinction.

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

It is an interesting take, but the point is a made up unrealistic hypothetical. I've never seen a missed mowed spot on the fairway that impacted a lie to anywhere near the extent of a ball in a divot hole. But to the general concept- the course set-up is not man-made damage to the course. It may be a good set-up or a bad set-up, but that is the course set-up for the day. A divot hole is man-made damage to the ground. A justifiable distinction.

Yes it is hypothetical.  And while changing the rule would be great,  the issue itself is the actual writing of the rule to clearly define what is still a divot and what isn’t a divot.  Mark crossfield made a point that on European courses, it is much more difficult than finely manicured courses since they tend to be built on sandy bases.  The point was also made that the ability to fix spike mark on greens was changed because people pushed the boundaries and claimed that spike marks were pitch marks.  people liked the rule change but it was written so you could fix everything on the green to avoid confusion and potential cheating.  Applying that to the divot,  the only way to avoid confusion and people understanding what is actually a divot and not a divot would be to write the rules that you get preferred lies in the fairway.   

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How many times do you guys see pros end up in a divot?  I don’t watch a ton of golf these days but I hardly ever see the pros end up in one. 

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9 hours ago, nprotz said:

How many times do you guys see pros end up in a divot?  I don’t watch a ton of golf these days but I hardly ever see the pros end up in one. 

Not only that how many times do people complaining about it end up in a divot.

In 20+ years playing the number of divots I’ve been in is less than 10

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4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Not only that how many times do people complaining about it end up in a divot.

In 20+ years playing the number of divots I’ve been in is less than 10

This right here. ^^^

I could count on one hand how many times I've found myself in a divot in the fairway.

If there was a rule change, that'd be fine by me, but I really don't care one way or the other. To me it's just another parallel to real life (thinking we deserved better than the result we got) and a great opportunity to challenge yourself in a new way. It's why I love golf, and it's why I generally tend to play the ball down even in casual games. I want to see if I can rise to the occasion. If I fail, then there's a lesson to be learned there and I'll make changes should I find myself in a similar situation.

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17 hours ago, nprotz said:

How many times do you guys see pros end up in a divot?  I don’t watch a ton of golf these days but I hardly ever see the pros end up in one. 

 

7 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Not only that how many times do people complaining about it end up in a divot.

In 20+ years playing the number of divots I’ve been in is less than 10

 

3 hours ago, TR1PTIK said:

 

I could count on one hand how many times I've found myself in a divot in the fairway.

How many burrowing animal holes have you been in?   How many dangerous animals have you been near?    There are rules to account for those and I bet you have been in more divots than those situations. 

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2 hours ago, cnosil said:

 

 

How many burrowing animal holes have you been in?   How many dangerous animals have you been near?    There are rules to account for those and I bet you have been in more divots than those situations. 

Correct ive been in more digits than those but unlike a divot those types of things can be easily described and as we see a clear rule for. 
 

Nobody complaining about the divot has posted a rule that can be clearly interpreted by every one on what constitutes a divot, and the replies they have given of describing a divot have been proven as not clear by yourself and others in here.

Everyone not complaining is in agreement that they would be open to a rule for it if it could be clearly written 

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Something similar to the mowing issues, my home course has uneven areas in the fairways where the irrigation lines run.  The loose soils placed over the water lines has settled over time, so you can stripe it and still have a very uneven lie.  It's definitely man-made.  And in my mind, it deserves relief to the exact same extent that divot holes deserve relief.  

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5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Correct ive been in more digits than those but unlike a divot those types of things can be easily described and as we see a clear rule for. 
 

Nobody complaining about the divot has posted a rule that can be clearly interpreted by every one on what constitutes a divot, and the replies they have given of describing a divot have been proven as not clear by yourself and others in here.

Everyone not complaining is in agreement that they would be open to a rule for it if it could be clearly written 

I provided that earlier in this discussion. I’ve never had any confusion identifying a divot hole. It’s an easy thing to tell. 

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13 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Nobody complaining about the divot has posted a rule that can be clearly interpreted by every one on what constitutes a divot, and the replies they have given of describing a divot have been proven as not clear by yourself and others in here.

Everyone not complaining is in agreement that they would be open to a rule for it if it could be clearly written 

I agree with you 100%.   The problem is writing the rule so people can easily tell when something isn't a divot anymore.   Fresh sand filled divots are easy.   But when you look across multiple turf type, soil bases, and healing over time,  they identification becomes less clear and people would start to abuse the rule as identification becomes subjective.  

If we could write a clear rule I am sure most everyone would like it added to the rule book.  

 

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8 hours ago, LICC said:

I provided that earlier in this discussion. I’ve never had any confusion identifying a divot hole. It’s an easy thing to tell. 

Everything you provided has been your interpretation and has been able to be shown as not clear enough to write a rule that would leave no confusion to include in a match if a golfer said that he/she was taking relief the opponent would agree.

But if you have that clear rule I would love to see it. 

7 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I agree with you 100%.   The problem is writing the rule so people can easily tell when something isn't a divot anymore.   Fresh sand filled divots are easy.   But when you look across multiple turf type, soil bases, and healing over time,  they identification becomes less clear and people would start to abuse the rule as identification becomes subjective.  

If we could write a clear rule I am sure most everyone would like it added to the rule book.  

 

Exactly, but haven’t sent that yet from anyone in this thread

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On 9/11/2021 at 2:58 PM, cnosil said:

How many burrowing animal holes have you been in?   How many dangerous animals have you been near?    There are rules to account for those and I bet you have been in more divots than those situations. 

Not to be argumentative (you make a fair point), but actually more than you might think now that I'm in TX. Course nearest me have identified a number of snakes and a bobcat or two on the property. I came across this guy a few months back. Thankfully, he was very calm and didn't seem to be bothered by my presence, but you better believe I was on high alert and keep my head on a swivel any time I play there.

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I do find it annoying that pros can carve the ball 60 yards off line behind bleachers and get line of sight relief but put it up the centre of a fairway into a divot and you get nothing. The recent excuse for not introducing the rule is that it could be abused and it is hard to define what is or isn't a divot, you're in the middle of the fairway, you should not be penalised  for landing in something that you can't even see off the tee. If they can define that a ball is overhanging a hold by a mil then they can surely define what a divot is!

 

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***Walks into the room of folks talking… Sees they’re still arguing over divots. Walks right back out of the room.***

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1 hour ago, PMookie said:

***Walks into the room of folks talking… Sees they’re still arguing over divots. Walks right back out of the room.***

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3 hours ago, Alf. S said:

I do find it annoying that pros can carve the ball 60 yards off line behind bleachers and get line of sight relief but put it up the centre of a fairway into a divot and you get nothing. The recent excuse for not introducing the rule is that it could be abused and it is hard to define what is or isn't a divot, you're in the middle of the fairway, you should not be penalised  for landing in something that you can't even see off the tee. If they can define that a ball is overhanging a hold by a mil then they can surely define what a divot is!

 

(Hold breath and wait for can of worms to be re-opened)

100% agree. This is what I wrote earlier in this thread regarding defining a divot:  If there is missing grass and the ball sits below the intended fairway, and it is apparent it was caused by a prior golf stroke, it's a divot. I can tell you 100% of the time if something is a divot or not. Judgement is needed to call a ball embedded, so the same can be said for divots.

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On 9/11/2021 at 2:58 PM, cnosil said:

 

 

How many burrowing animal holes have you been in?   How many dangerous animals have you been near?    There are rules to account for those and I bet you have been in more divots than those situations. 

I've actually been near more dangerous things such as a copperhead snake or on fire ant hills that I've been in divots...matter of fact, I can't even remember the last time I've hit in a divot or if I have

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4 hours ago, LICC said:

100% agree. This is what I wrote earlier in this thread regarding defining a divot:  If there is missing grass and the ball sits below the intended fairway, and it is apparent it was caused by a prior golf stroke, it's a divot. I can tell you 100% of the time if something is a divot or not. Judgement is needed to call a ball embedded, so the same can be said for divots.

I sometimes play on a course that can politely be called a cow pasture.  Now, there is one fairway in particular that I could almost legitimately have called anywhere my balled landed "in a divot" as the whole fairway could easily be classed as "ground under repair."  Wouldn't be an issue on tour though.

Quite frankly, the league I was in allowed you to roll the ball in the fairway for divots, but I'm fine with "play it as it lies" or "you're allowed to move it."  Is it a tough break?  Yeah, but I don't know that it's really unfair more than it is requiring a little more focus.  Those guys on tour are hitting the ball first.  It doesn't seem to bother them as much as it bothers viewers/announcers.  

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3 hours ago, B.Boston said:

Those guys on tour are hitting the ball first.  It doesn't seem to bother them as much as it bothers viewers/announcers. 

100%. 

i’m pretty sure morikawa can hit his 6i off of a dinner plate without even cracking it. 

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4 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

100%. 

i’m pretty sure morikawa can hit his 6i off of a dinner plate without even cracking it. 

Heck some of the time they elect to hit it of the cart path vs dropping in the rough!  I don't think that would feel good for my wrist or for my club.

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