Persimmon driver = less distance ?

[cnosil]

People have been advocating going back to older technology to scale back distances. The was a video in Paul Casey’s Instagram (video can be found elsewhere if you search other golf

Forums) of him hitting a persimmon wood with 300 yard carry. PGA pros are good and equipment manufacturers are good. Players will continue to swing faster and OEMs will design equipment to maximize output.

[RickyBobby_PR]

Saw that a little while ago. He’s not one you would expect to be long so that was impressive to see.

[THEZIPR23]

It was about 1997 and the assistant pro was on the range trying to hit his Dad's old persimmon driver. I don't remember what the head was or the shaft, but he couldn't get it close to his normal distance. There was a net at the end of the range, my guess is about 260-270 carry to get over it. I said let me see that thing, I proceeded to hit 3 straight balls over the net. I handed it back to him and just said it works. Hitting a persimmon on the screws will go almost as far as. The big difference is that hitting it anywhere else is a huge punishment, but the tour players won't have that problem. 

[BMart519]

Does persimmon mean that steel shafts are also a requirement for fairway woods? LOL this whole rollback is so silly. 

[cnosil]

Does persimmon mean that steel shafts are also a requirement for fairway woods? LOL this whole rollback is so silly. 

The one Paul Casey hit had a steel shaft.

[revkev]

I maintain and always have that the ball is the bigger "culprit" here.  Remember that prior to the advent of the Pro VI the ball played by pros was 15 to 20 yards shorter than it's two or three piece surlyn counterpart.  The difference in control far offset the difference in distance at that time, or so it was thought, it would have been interesting to see what ball choice may have been made had the Brodie study existed. "

 

Also, Paul Casey is sneaky long, he's normally right around the top 3rd in driving distance in tournaments that I track him in.  

 

While you won't be able to swing a persimmon driver with a 43" steal shaft as fast as a modern driver with a 45.5" composite shaft you will still be able to swing it fast enough that if you hit it on the screws a modern ball will go just fine with it - so it goes 300 instead of 310, 315.  Big deal. 

[Pinhi1]

Some of the longest drives I ever hit were when I was playing a steel shafted Persimmon driver with a balata golf ball.  When you hit it in the screws, the ball would go for ever.  The miss-hits were very punishing.  

[DaLlama2i]

I have a Kenneth Smith Wood Driver I picked up at a thrift store.  Decided to take it to the range last weekend and I was roping it 230-250 with a easy smooth swing and relatively straight. It has a super early graphite shaft, as I would date the club to the mid to late 60's, so I wasn't really going after it. It was a lot of fun to hit. 

[Chip Strokes]

this thread has me wanting to score an old persimmon at goodwill and see what i can get out of it. 

[cnosil]

4 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

this thread has me wanting to score an old persimmon at goodwill and see what i can get out of it. 

keep in mind that newer persimmons probably work better with todays swings;  you really have to change how you swing with the older persimmons.

[toehold57]

8 minutes ago, cnosil said:

keep in mind that newer persimmons probably work better with todays swings;  you really have to change how you swing with the older persimmons.

Newer?  That sparked a thought, are new persimmon drivers still being made?  Yes!

• Louisville Golf

• National Custom Works / Tad Moore

• Bob Burns Custom Clubs

[cnosil]

8 minutes ago, toehold57 said:

Newer?  That sparked a thought, are new persimmon drivers still being made?  Yes!

• Louisville Golf

• National Custom Works / Tad Moore

• Bob Burns Custom Clubs

Here is the one Casey was using:

https://www.instagram.com/graingolf/

 

[HardcoreLooper]

In my classics rounds, I've seen that my absolute best persimmon drives are about 10 yards shorter than my average drive with my F8.  The new clubs help, but the ball is so different now.  You just don't get crazy side-spin (spin axis tilt) like you used to.  Hitting a persimmon driver with the modern ball still doesn't bring back the fear of the huge miss that we had with balata.

[NRJyzr]

On 3/10/2021 at 1:49 PM, revkev said:

I maintain and always have that the ball is the bigger "culprit" here.  Remember that prior to the advent of the Pro VI the ball played by pros was 15 to 20 yards shorter than it's two or three piece surlyn counterpart.  The difference in control far offset the difference in distance at that time, or so it was thought, it would have been interesting to see what ball choice may have been made had the Brodie study existed. "

 

Also, Paul Casey is sneaky long, he's normally right around the top 3rd in driving distance in tournaments that I track him in.  

 

While you won't be able to swing a persimmon driver with a 43" steal shaft as fast as a modern driver with a 45.5" composite shaft you will still be able to swing it fast enough that if you hit it on the screws a modern ball will go just fine with it - so it goes 300 instead of 310, 315.  Big deal. 

Most people point at the ball, but a look at the objective data says otherwise.

There were launch monitor ball tests in the early days of golf forums, the differences between balls such as the Professional and the Stratas, solid core Precepts, and Pro V1s was not profound.  The main difference was spin.

 

Switching to the new ball in 2000-2001 resulted in a half club distance increase, at most.  There have been larger bumps as driver size inflated and launch monitors were employed.

[NRJyzr]

Speaking to the persimmon topic....  DJ also famously hit Jack Nicklaus's driver and 1 iron a couple years ago, with TrackMan watching.  Reported 290+ carry, and 318 total distance.  Said he didn't go after it, not wanting to break it.

I think the 1 iron was 230ish.

I don't know that top distances would change all that much, on the premium swings and contact.  The average would come down for forgiveness reasons, at minimum.  I think what we'd see would be an accuracy reduction, due to the extreme decrease in MOI.  

What was the biggest complaint at Tour level about the SLDR?  Lack of control.  Low MOI and low spin means less predictability.  Hmmmm....

What might happen at that point is a further reduction in distance as players were forced to rein it in a bit, for control's sake.  Pure speculation, obviously.  LOL

Edited to add total anecdotal personal experience...

Around 2002, I found a Louisville Smart Driver at 2nd Swing.  I'd never played persimmons, having started playing golf in late 1998.  Bought it.

Took it with me to the course one day.  Was on the range before the round, was hitting my driver to the net downrange (range tees were forward).  Grab the Smart Driver, found I was hitting it to the same spot downrange.  Even hit the posts holding the net on the fly a couple times.  Hit it on the course a couple times, got my expected tee distance on other shots.

Point being, persimmon doesn't seem all that short to me. <shrug>

Edited March 12, 2021 by NRJyzr

[RickyBobby_PR]

11 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

Speaking to the persimmon topic....  DJ also famously hit Jack Nicklaus's driver and 1 iron a couple years ago, with TrackMan watching.  Reported 290+ carry, and 318 total distance.  Said he didn't go after it, not wanting to break it.

I think the 1 iron was 230ish.

I don't know that top distances would change all that much, on the premium swings and contact.  The average would come down for forgiveness reasons, at minimum.  I think what we'd see would be an accuracy reduction, due to the extreme decrease in MOI.  

What was the biggest complaint at Tour level about the SLDR?  Lack of control.  Low MOI and low spin means less predictability.  Hmmmm....

What might happen at that point is a further reduction in distance as players were forced to rein it in a bit, for control's sake.  Pure speculation, obviously.  LOL

Edited to add total anecdotal personal experience...

Around 2002, I found a Louisville Smart Driver at 2nd Swing.  I'd never played persimmons, having started playing golf in late 1998.  Bought it.

Took it with me to the course one day.  Was on the range before the round, was hitting my driver to the net downrange (range tees were forward).  Grab the Smart Driver, found I was hitting it to the same spot downrange.  Even hit the posts holding the net on the fly a couple times.

Point being, persimmon doesn't seem all that short to me. <shrug>

Watch the pros hit their fairway woods which vary in size of about 175-185cc. They hit hem pretty straight and long. DJ went to a high lofted hybrid in Hawaii lasted over a 19* because the 19* went too far for what he wanted I that spot. He didn’t take out because it was less accurate. This year he had a 7w in the bag. 
 

Check out TMs YouTube page when they are testing clubs and they hit the ball a long way in mishits with the woods. 
 

[NRJyzr]

19 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Watch the pros hit their fairway woods which vary in size of about 175-185cc. They hit hem pretty straight and long. DJ went to a high lofted hybrid in Hawaii lasted over a 19* because the 19* went too far for what he wanted I that spot. He didn’t take out because it was less accurate. This year he had a 7w in the bag. 
 

Check out TMs YouTube page when they are testing clubs and they hit the ball a long way in mishits with the woods. 
 

Its the unknown part of my speculation, their obvious performance with fairways.

There are a couple things that got me to my speculative moment...  on Tour telecasts, its frequently mentioned that Tour players will move to a fairway wood when they want to move the ball a bit more readily.  However, beginners are (well, *were*) often told to use a 3w to tee off with when just taking up the game, one reason being the higher loft made the club easier to hit.  More backspin, less curve.

Those two seem to contradict, don't they?

Thats why I think the lower spin of the driver, combined with lower MOI, might make accuracy more of an issue with a smaller driver.

Ultimately, the proof would be in the pudding, as they say.  Not sure we'll get to see it.  I wouldn't mind if we got to, though...

[null]

11 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

Its the unknown part of my speculation, their obvious performance with fairways.

There are a couple things that got me to my speculative moment...  on Tour telecasts, its frequently mentioned that Tour players will move to a fairway wood when they want to move the ball a bit more readily.  However, beginners are (well, *were*) often told to use a 3w to tee off with when just taking up the game, one reason being the higher loft made the club easier to hit.  More backspin, less curve.

Those two seem to contradict, don't they?

Thats why I think the lower spin of the driver, combined with lower MOI, might make accuracy more of an issue with a smaller driver.

Ultimately, the proof would be in the pudding, as they say.  Not sure we'll get to see it.  I wouldn't mind if we got to, though...

The more loft a club has, the harder it is to work sideways. The less loft a club has, the easier it is to tilt the spin axis and thus easier to draw and fade

[RickyBobby_PR]

12 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

There are a couple things that got me to my speculative moment...  on Tour telecasts, its frequently mentioned that Tour players will move to a fairway wood when they want to move the ball a bit more readily.  However, beginners are (well, *were*) often told to use a 3w to tee off with when just taking up the game, one reason being the higher loft made the club easier to hit.  More backspin, less curve.

Those two seem to contradict, don't they?

Two different swings. Amateurs struggle with lower lofted clubs. They hit their pw and 9i better than their 5&6i. Their swings generally add too much spin to a driver and their path is terrible causing the ball to move to much. A slower speed player hits the 5w better than 3w

For the pros the equipment these days both in club and ball Is designed to hit it straighter so as the loft decreases in a club it becomes harder to move the ball. Not that it’s impossible as one can see with Bubba but most pros have roughly 5 yards of movement laterally.

 

[Hook DeLoft]

On 3/12/2021 at 8:15 AM, NRJyzr said:

Most people point at the ball, but a look at the objective data says otherwise.

There were launch monitor ball tests in the early days of golf forums, the differences between balls such as the Professional and the Stratas, solid core Precepts, and Pro V1s was not profound.  The main difference was spin.

 

Switching to the new ball in 2000-2001 resulted in a half club distance increase, at most.  There have been larger bumps as driver size inflated and launch monitors were employed.

I think the lower spin ball allows top tier players to swing harder with less fear of it spinning off the planet. Low spin also means there is less difference between an iron shot from the fairway and one from light rough, thus less penalty for coming out of your shoes on the tee box and missing the fairway.  Of course, this is just one of the factors causing the distance increase.