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Why are after market shafts considered better than stock?


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2 minutes ago, ejgaudette said:

Yes this is exactly what I have heard as well. They have even mentioned in some previous No Putts Givens that the actual manufacturing costs of even high end shafts is not as much as you think, obviously there is a lot of R&D that they want to cover with shaft prices, bust just like it does not cost 500 to produce the driver (including sourcing a shaft) it does not cost 300 to make the shaft. There are other costs associated in running the business and of course a mark up for profit, just like any other product.

Correct. Everyone has to get paid along the way. And from a shaft perspective there could be several layers of less expensive materials used in the shaft and 1 piece of more expensive fiber used that raises the cost, also could be the paint itself that raises the cost. The T1100 paint used by PX is very expensive. 
 

What many may not know is that the stiffer a shaft is the more brittle it becomes. So something with T1100 or some of the material like the 70T used in the Ventus velocore won’t have a lot of that material in it

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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1 minute ago, jlukes said:

Yup and the club manufacturers buy in bulk and negotiate shaft costs with the shaft companies to get the shafts for their new club releases. 
 

The shaft companies sell the, at reduced cost because it’s also a form of marketing to get your shaft as a stock option in one of the hot new releases

Exactly I don't think anyone would be talking about the HZRDUS RDX Smoke Blue (quite a mouthful by the way) if it was not a stock offering across multiple OEMs which then means many Youtube reviewers that get clubs from the OEMs for testing mention the shaft and just like that the agreement has provided tons of marketing for the shaft.

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:callaway-small: Epic Max LS 9° HZRDUS Smoke Black 70g 6.5 (2021 Official Review) | :taylormade-small: '07 Burner 15° Reax 50 Stiff 

:titelist-small: 816 H1 18° Fujikura Speeder HB 8.8 Stiff | :titelist-small: 816 H1 21° Mitsubishi Diamana S+ Blue 70 Stiff

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Just now, ejgaudette said:

Exactly I don't think anyone would be talking about the HZRDUS RDX Smoke Blue (quite a mouthful by the way) if it was not a stock offering across multiple OEMs which then means many Youtube reviewers that get clubs from the OEMs for testing mention the shaft and just like that the agreement has provided tons of marketing for the shaft.

And the interesting part of that is if you go into a retail location while that shaft is stock offering you may not find it in any of the clubs on the rack. I was in my local pro shop the other day. They had the non velocore Ventus in most of the sim2/max heads and another shaft I didn’t pay attention to since I wanted to see if they had the rdx blue out if curiosity. So it’s till somewhat limited offering that needs to be requested but will come at no cost as long as it’s not the pvd finish

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Correct. Everyone has to get paid along the way. And from a shaft perspective there could be several layers of less expensive materials used in the shaft and 1 piece of more expensive fiber used that raises the cost, also could be the paint itself that raises the cost. The T1100 paint used by PX is very expensive. 
 

What many may not know is that the stiffer a shaft is the more brittle it becomes. So something with T1100 or some of the material like the 70T used in the Ventus velocore won’t have a lot of that material in it

Great point about those high end stiff materials and brittleness, just like the Hexcel in the new PX stuff. The cost of each shaft is of course different and makes sense what Mitsubishi does with their shafts, at first they are an aftermarket only option, when Pro or AV Raw or now the 1K series come, then after some time then move those to a potential stock offering.

I noticed the limited actual in stock options at stores. When I got my last driver from a store they did not have the Aldila stock offering in any of the Cobra drivers, but of course that was an option if you order through them and such. More like there is stock and then there is on the rack offerings depending on where you are and what you shop thinks it will be able to actually sell.

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:callaway-small: Epic Max LS 9° HZRDUS Smoke Black 70g 6.5 (2021 Official Review) | :taylormade-small: '07 Burner 15° Reax 50 Stiff 

:titelist-small: 816 H1 18° Fujikura Speeder HB 8.8 Stiff | :titelist-small: 816 H1 21° Mitsubishi Diamana S+ Blue 70 Stiff

:ping-small:  I500 5 - UW Red Dot Dynamic Gold S300 | :Hogan: Equalizer 52° / 56° KBS Tour V 110 Stiff

:cleveland-small:  SOFT 11S Super Stroke Mid-Slim 2.0 | :ping-small: Hoofer Bag | :titelist-small: Left Dash Pro V1x| Right Handed 

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Just now, ejgaudette said:

Great point about those high end stiff materials and brittleness, just like the Hexcel in the new PX stuff. The cost of each shaft is of course different and makes sense what Mitsubishi does with their shafts, at first they are an aftermarket only option, when Pro or AV Raw or now the 1K series come, then after some time then move those to a potential stock offering.

I noticed the limited actual in stock options at stores. When I got my last driver from a store they did not have the Aldila stock offering in any of the Cobra drivers, but of course that was an option if you order through them and such. More like there is stock and then there is on the rack offerings depending on where you are and what you shop thinks it will be able to actually sell.

Exactly and I think this may add to some of the confusion. I had the chance to talk with a couple of the big wigs at Cobra in 2015. They setup their design to have a shaft and head that fits the majority of the golfing public. Let’s say as an example it’s the ck orange (non pro). That becomes “stock” and what you will see in the retail shops. They will have a stock shaft that fits the high speed player, the mid swing speed and the slower speed swings. That may or may not be the same across the board but in different flexes and/or weights. Now they have these options for off the rack buyers.

They determine what other shafts they want to offer at no upcharge and what will be upcharge and how much that upcharge will be. This is where the fittings and dial in a shaft comes into play for someone that doesn’t fit the profile of the stock shaft. So these other shafts are where some of the confusion might come in since they are “premium” shafts that don’t cost the upcharge fee so they are stock but not quite retail stock per se

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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1 minute ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Exactly and I think this may add to some of the confusion. I had the chance to talk with a couple of the big wigs at Cobra in 2015. They setup their design to have a shaft and head that fits the majority of the golfing public. Let’s say as an example it’s the ck orange (non pro). That becomes “stock” and what you will see in the retail shops. They will have a stock shaft that fits the high speed player, the mid swing speed and the slower speed swings. That may or may not be the same across the board but in different flexes and/or weights. Now they have these options for off the rack buyers.

They determine what other shafts they want to offer at no upcharge and what will be upcharge and how much that upcharge will be. This is where the fittings and dial in a shaft comes into play for someone that doesn’t fit the profile of the stock shaft. So these other shafts are where some of the confusion might come in since they are “premium” shafts that don’t cost the upcharge fee so they are stock but not quite retail stock per se

Exactly and what each OEM picks for true stock and no-upcharge options varies. So one might have that RDX Blue as stock, another as a no upcharge option, third it is an upcharge option, and forth does not offer it at all. 

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:callaway-small: Epic Max LS 9° HZRDUS Smoke Black 70g 6.5 (2021 Official Review) | :taylormade-small: '07 Burner 15° Reax 50 Stiff 

:titelist-small: 816 H1 18° Fujikura Speeder HB 8.8 Stiff | :titelist-small: 816 H1 21° Mitsubishi Diamana S+ Blue 70 Stiff

:ping-small:  I500 5 - UW Red Dot Dynamic Gold S300 | :Hogan: Equalizer 52° / 56° KBS Tour V 110 Stiff

:cleveland-small:  SOFT 11S Super Stroke Mid-Slim 2.0 | :ping-small: Hoofer Bag | :titelist-small: Left Dash Pro V1x| Right Handed 

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8 minutes ago, ejgaudette said:

Exactly and what each OEM picks for true stock and no-upcharge options varies. So one might have that RDX Blue as stock, another as a no upcharge option, third it is an upcharge option, and forth does not offer it at all. 

Yup. The Ventus velocore is a good example. Most offer it and $250 upcharge but titleist has it for $345. Some of the brands offer all 3 colors but titleist only offers blue and black.

 

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

This just isn’t true. I have been to two different shaft manufacturers including PX.

The handcrafted PX hzrdus shafts were the exact same materials as the non handcrafted. The reason the handcrafted was aftermarket is because it was made by a small group of people in San Diego and they couldn’t mass produce them like the factory in Asia could. So you paid the premium price.  
 

Let’s take a look at current shafts from PX. The Hzrdus smoke rdx blue is offered by some brands as a no upcharge shaft but is offered at different upcharge price from others. It’s the exact same shaft that goes to all the club manufacturers that are offering it.

Adlidla rogue wanted to get their new white shaft in the public’s hands so they worked with Callaway to make it a stock offering while other brands had it as an upcharge.

Some shafts like the tensei have a pro line which is the premium offering and has different specs and materials than the non pro line. 

Well I'm going not only by what materials we have contributed to the sporting goods industry but also discussions I have had with unbiased fitters and I do know the "small group of people in San Deigo." I just used PX as an example name, not saying they do or do not have differences in OEM vs Aftermarket. I'll agree this may not be 100% the case for all shafts, but this is what I have researched and also been told. Do I have a definitive list of bill of materials and specs for all shafts to 100% verify? No, and I bet you do not either.  I can 100% tell you that you (nor I) cannot tell the difference visually looking at standard modulus material vs a high modulus material, and in agreement with No Putts Given, I do know offshore mass manufacturing technologies (not just in composite sporting goods) have closed the gap in terms of achieving handcrafted/domestic quality and performance. Offshore labor costs are significantly cheaper which also helps. Why do you think most manufacture overseas?

I KNOW for a fact this is the case with hockey sticks. Pro models are considerably different carbon construction from their same retail counterpart. You can visually see the difference in the wall thickness if you cross section a graphite/carbon hockey stick. Our San Diego friends happen to be the same group that also designs those.

Quoting an article from Golf.com

"It’s important to note some manufacturers have shifted away from “made for” shafts and started putting premium aftermarket versions in their newest products. Others offer the shafts with an upcharge. The difficulty is knowing whether the shaft in your driver is a premium aftermarket version or one that has identical graphics but happens to be made with lower cost materials."

https://golf.com/gear/golf-accessories/stock-aftermarket-golf-shafts-fully-equipped/ 

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Bag: Sun Mountain 4.5 14 way

Driver: Ping G400 Max 10.5 deg (set to 9.9 deg/"little minus") Oban Devotion 6 Stiff 65g Grip GP MCC Plus4 Midsize

3W: Ping G410 14.5 deg Mitsubishi Tensei CK Orange Stiff 70g Grip GP MCC Plus4 Midsize

Hybrids: 19 deg and 22 deg Ping G410 hybrid Mitsubishi C6 Black Stiff 80g Grip GP MCC Plus4 Midsize

Irons: 5-PW Irons PXG 0211 KBS C Taper Tour 120 Stiff -0.50" Grip GP MCC Plus4 Midsize

Wedges: 50, 54 and 58 deg Callaway MD5 JAWS 10 deg bounce S Grind Grip GP MCC  Plus4 Midsize

Putter:  PXG Gen2 Spitfire Armlock 37.5" SuperStroke Flatso 3.0 17"

Game Ball: Chromesoft X LS / Titleist Left Dot

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And I'm not trying to argue anything with anyone or saying my knowledge is 100% accurate and yours is not, just simply sharing what knowledge I have.

Edited by RDel90
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Bag: Sun Mountain 4.5 14 way

Driver: Ping G400 Max 10.5 deg (set to 9.9 deg/"little minus") Oban Devotion 6 Stiff 65g Grip GP MCC Plus4 Midsize

3W: Ping G410 14.5 deg Mitsubishi Tensei CK Orange Stiff 70g Grip GP MCC Plus4 Midsize

Hybrids: 19 deg and 22 deg Ping G410 hybrid Mitsubishi C6 Black Stiff 80g Grip GP MCC Plus4 Midsize

Irons: 5-PW Irons PXG 0211 KBS C Taper Tour 120 Stiff -0.50" Grip GP MCC Plus4 Midsize

Wedges: 50, 54 and 58 deg Callaway MD5 JAWS 10 deg bounce S Grind Grip GP MCC  Plus4 Midsize

Putter:  PXG Gen2 Spitfire Armlock 37.5" SuperStroke Flatso 3.0 17"

Game Ball: Chromesoft X LS / Titleist Left Dot

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5 minutes ago, RDel90 said:

And I'm not trying to argue anything with anyone or saying my knowledge is 100% accurate and yours is not, just simply sharing what knowledge I have.

My knowledge is first hand directly from PX while sitting in a conference room talking to their VP of design Don Brown. Don has also been on several golf forums to confirm the samething numerous times. 

Ive seen shafts made from start to finish including the spreadsheet they use to design the shaft with materials, the affect on EI profile, weight, flex, torque and so on. I’ve seen their entire facility. 

Ive been to UST Mamiya and met with their design person, their marketing VP and their process for making shafts which is basically the same as PX. 

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

My knowledge is first hand directly from PX while sitting in a conference room talking to their VP of design Don Brown. Don has also been on several golf forums to confirm the samething numerous times. 

Ive seen shafts made from start to finish including the spreadsheet they use to design the shaft with materials, the affect on EI profile, weight, flex, torque and so on. I’ve seen their entire facility. 

Ive been to UST Mamiya and met with their design person, their marketing VP and their process for making shafts which is basically the same as PX. 

Well then glad to compare notes and make sure the info I have or know is correct.

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Bag: Sun Mountain 4.5 14 way

Driver: Ping G400 Max 10.5 deg (set to 9.9 deg/"little minus") Oban Devotion 6 Stiff 65g Grip GP MCC Plus4 Midsize

3W: Ping G410 14.5 deg Mitsubishi Tensei CK Orange Stiff 70g Grip GP MCC Plus4 Midsize

Hybrids: 19 deg and 22 deg Ping G410 hybrid Mitsubishi C6 Black Stiff 80g Grip GP MCC Plus4 Midsize

Irons: 5-PW Irons PXG 0211 KBS C Taper Tour 120 Stiff -0.50" Grip GP MCC Plus4 Midsize

Wedges: 50, 54 and 58 deg Callaway MD5 JAWS 10 deg bounce S Grind Grip GP MCC  Plus4 Midsize

Putter:  PXG Gen2 Spitfire Armlock 37.5" SuperStroke Flatso 3.0 17"

Game Ball: Chromesoft X LS / Titleist Left Dot

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2 hours ago, RDel90 said:

Well I'm going not only by what materials we have contributed to the sporting goods industry but also discussions I have had with unbiased fitters and I do know the "small group of people in San Deigo." I just used PX as an example name, not saying they do or do not have differences in OEM vs Aftermarket. I'll agree this may not be 100% the case for all shafts, but this is what I have researched and also been told. Do I have a definitive list of bill of materials and specs for all shafts to 100% verify? No, and I bet you do not either.  I can 100% tell you that you (nor I) cannot tell the difference visually looking at standard modulus material vs a high modulus material, and in agreement with No Putts Given, I do know offshore mass manufacturing technologies (not just in composite sporting goods) have closed the gap in terms of achieving handcrafted/domestic quality and performance. Offshore labor costs are significantly cheaper which also helps. Why do you think most manufacture overseas?

I KNOW for a fact this is the case with hockey sticks. Pro models are considerably different carbon construction from their same retail counterpart. You can visually see the difference in the wall thickness if you cross section a graphite/carbon hockey stick. Our San Diego friends happen to be the same group that also designs those.

Quoting an article from Golf.com

"It’s important to note some manufacturers have shifted away from “made for” shafts and started putting premium aftermarket versions in their newest products. Others offer the shafts with an upcharge. The difficulty is knowing whether the shaft in your driver is a premium aftermarket version or one that has identical graphics but happens to be made with lower cost materials."

https://golf.com/gear/golf-accessories/stock-aftermarket-golf-shafts-fully-equipped/ 

The same article also says:

“I don’t think anybody’s out there directly lying to the consumer, because they’re not out there saying, ‘Hey, this is the exact same thing,'” said Oldenburg. “But there is a little bit of kind of pulling the wool over the eyes of not coming right out and saying it’s different.”

For example, the CK Orange / Pro Orange shaft models pretty much look the same. The Pro Orange is definitely more expensive than the regular CK Orange. The average consumer probably has no idea there are different "CK Orange" models. 

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Put simply, to answer the question...because they’re more expensive! Sure you can go down the endless shaft rabbit hole and try to quantify “better”, but at the end of the day, “better” is completely subjective. You can have a $10 shaft that produces great numbers, and a $100 shaft with “better” materials/tolerances that doesn’t. Fitting is the key, and you don’t need high dollar shafts to get good performance.

A $75k BMW is better than a $25k Chevy, but the BMW doesn’t get you to work any better than the Chevy!




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On 3/25/2021 at 1:38 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

My knowledge is first hand directly from PX while sitting in a conference room talking to their VP of design Don Brown. Don has also been on several golf forums to confirm the samething numerous times. 

Ive seen shafts made from start to finish including the spreadsheet they use to design the shaft with materials, the affect on EI profile, weight, flex, torque and so on. I’ve seen their entire facility. 

Ive been to UST Mamiya and met with their design person, their marketing VP and their process for making shafts which is basically the same as PX. 

Just curious what do you do for a living RickyBobby that you have had the opportunity to walk through these facilities? I'm assuming you aren't the driver for the Wonder Bread car 🙂

While PX and UST may not use same graphics but different specs for OEM vs aftermarket, would you say based on what you know and articles/research such as the Golf.com one and others out on the web, that it is conceivable (and maybe becoming less common) other manufacturers may still do this?

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Bag: Sun Mountain 4.5 14 way

Driver: Ping G400 Max 10.5 deg (set to 9.9 deg/"little minus") Oban Devotion 6 Stiff 65g Grip GP MCC Plus4 Midsize

3W: Ping G410 14.5 deg Mitsubishi Tensei CK Orange Stiff 70g Grip GP MCC Plus4 Midsize

Hybrids: 19 deg and 22 deg Ping G410 hybrid Mitsubishi C6 Black Stiff 80g Grip GP MCC Plus4 Midsize

Irons: 5-PW Irons PXG 0211 KBS C Taper Tour 120 Stiff -0.50" Grip GP MCC Plus4 Midsize

Wedges: 50, 54 and 58 deg Callaway MD5 JAWS 10 deg bounce S Grind Grip GP MCC  Plus4 Midsize

Putter:  PXG Gen2 Spitfire Armlock 37.5" SuperStroke Flatso 3.0 17"

Game Ball: Chromesoft X LS / Titleist Left Dot

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1 hour ago, RDel90 said:

Just curious what do you do for a living RickyBobby that you have had the opportunity to walk through these facilities? I'm assuming you aren't the driver for the Wonder Bread car 🙂

While PX and UST may not use same graphics but different specs for OEM vs aftermarket, would you say based on what you know and articles/research such as the Golf.com one and others out on the web, that it is conceivable (and maybe becoming less common) other manufacturers may still do this?

I am a network engineer. From a past forum life I had was selected for trips to both those brands as well as some other opportunities to spend time with Bridgestone and Cobra and have also spent time talking to or helping several sales reps for club manufacturers in my area.

Outside of what Fujikura has done with the Ventus shafts with TM and Tour Edge I don’t believe any of the brands really are doing similar graphics for their made for shafts or their standard production shafts. With the Ventus not sure what the deal with tour edge is but with TM I heard they paid for the name Ventus and that’s why they have a non velocore version of the shaft.

Fujikura has different graphics for the atmos and atmos tour spec. Mitsubishi does the same with the AV and AV raw as well as the ck and non ck version.

Ghe diamana series may be one of the few that I can recall might be confusing.

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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