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Double Penalty for Out of Bounds


LICC

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2 minutes ago, LICC said:

That is not correct. As your second shot went OB, you go back to your prior spot (black x), add a stroke penalty, and now you are hitting your fourth shot. Or if the local rule is in effect, you can go to the nearest spot in the fairway(black dot), take a two stroke penalty and now you are hitting 5 from that spot. 

Let's say my fourth shot taking stroke and distance (hitting from black x) ends up near the black dot, isn't that the same as taking the two stoke penalty and hitting from the black dot?

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4 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Two different holes  two different outcomes.   One hole doesn't have a pond on the right and I can play my shot;  The next hole has a pond and the player receives a penalty. exacty same swing and one gets to play and one is in a pond.  One golfer is penalized while the other isn't.    Illogical and unfair.  

In your scenario, the ball can physically be played while the other can’t. That is not a rule inconsistency. 

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1 minute ago, sirchunksalot said:

Let's say my fourth shot taking stroke and distance (hitting from black x) ends up near the black dot, isn't that the same as taking the two stoke penalty and hitting from the black dot?

Sure. The purpose of the local rule is just to speed up play

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2 minutes ago, sirchunksalot said:

Let's say my fourth shot taking stroke and distance (hitting from black x) ends up near the black dot, isn't that the same as taking the two stoke penalty and hitting from the black dot?

The reason the rules were changed to allow the player to place the ball at the black dot was for pace of play and keep players from going back to the spot the hit their prior shot.  Functionally they work the same. 

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12 minutes ago, LICC said:

In your scenario, the ball can physically be played while the other can’t. That is not a rule inconsistency. 

Under the current rules there isn't a rule inconsistency.  One is red stakes and the other is white stakes.  

The rules aren't unfair, illogical, or inconsistent.  You simply don't like the stroke and distance rule as the only option for an OB shot.  

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24 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Under the current rules there isn't a rule inconsistency.  One is red stakes and the other is white stakes.  

The rules aren't unfair, illogical, or inconsistent.  You simply don't like the stroke and distance rule as the only option for an OB shot.  

The color of the stakes is per the rule. You are trying to justify an illogical rule by referencing the rule. Circular logic. 

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2 hours ago, LICC said:

So if you hit it into a lateral hazard pond, you wouldn't see where you need to improve, but if you hit the exact same shot OB, you would see it?

Should the ball not be at the bottom of a pond?

I would say that, in the spirit of the rules and the game, a shot OB is typically a much worse shot (further away from the intended shot) than a shot into a hazard.

As for the ball being at the bottom of the pond, I guess it depends on who you ask 😂😂

Obsessed with the game

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On 3/26/2021 at 8:54 AM, LICC said:

I'll start this as a new topic as I had posted in a discussion about a different rule.

The double penalty for OB is one of the worst rules in golf. OB should be treated the same as a penalty area- drop based where it entered OB and play from there with one stroke added for the drop. It is illogical to treat hitting a ball past an OB stake differently than hitting a ball into the bottom of a pond next to the fairway. The fact that penalty areas are part of the course and OB is not is not a meaningful distinction. If it is physically impossible to hit your ball, the effect is the same. The same swing and ball flight should not be penalized differently based on one impossible hit area being OB and the other impossible to hit area being the bottom of a pond. For decades this rule was only a stroke penalty, not stroke and distance, and many prominent people have stated through the years that this is a bad rule.

Just like last time we debated this topic.  A ball in a water hazard is allowed to be played since it's still on the course.  You can't logically think it's reasonable to play a ball once it's hit off the course.

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On 3/26/2021 at 11:29 AM, LeftyRM7 said:

...especially considering there is a huge gray area between the definition of the two.

What gray area?

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On 3/26/2021 at 3:02 PM, LICC said:

“The most penal rule in golf – the ‘stroke and distance’ penalty...

I'd argue that the DQ penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard is more penal.

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On 4/18/2021 at 3:51 PM, JeremyD said:

If you are leaving the boundary of the course, then I have no problem with the penalty. It has even cost me in a tournament. I’m not mad the OB is there. I was mad I’ve played courses where there are internal OB stakes and I don’t agree with those. You shouldn’t be penalized  the same way. 

I disagree.  Internal OB is usually defined to protect other players from being hit (adjacent fairway, following tee box...).  There should be a harsh penalty if you're flirting with other peoples' lives.

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On 4/18/2021 at 6:10 PM, DaveP043 said:

Why is rolling through a Stop sign different than rolling through a Yield sign?  Its an identical action, treated differently based on the shape and color of the sign.  Because the folks who have set up the rules have decided that different penalties are appropriate.  Just as golf's ruling bodies have done.  It is meaningful because it is specifically defined as being meaningful.

While I imagine we're on the same side of this debate, that's not exactly a good example.  There is not penalty simply for rolling through a yield sign.

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On 4/29/2021 at 11:20 AM, stuka44 said:

After all don't forget that the size of the golf hole can't be changed because some guy in the 1890's was too lazy to go and find a bigger piece of drain pipe, even though when he picked up the 4.25 inch one he likely lamented, "boy this is awful small, I think there is a bigger piece in the shed a ways away.... aw forget it its lunch time, we'll just use this.  But I guess in the age of stats I guess a hole size that renders professionals who practice hundreds if not a thousand putts a week capable of making just 50% of their putts from 8 feet is just right.  My gosh the uproar for suggesting such a thing.  Its like Noah received the dimensions for the ark, and the size of the golf hole at the same time🤣.

 

First, it seems that the guy lived in the 1820's, not the 1890's.

https://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2020/03/15/what-size-golf-ball-168-inches-golf-hole-425-inches-74425/

"It is believed that the standard hole size was created at Royal Musselburgh Golf Club in Scotland in 1829 when they invented the first known hole-cutter that produced a 4.25 inch hole and was based on the typical Musselburgh drainage pipe at the time. The R&A adopted that standard width in 1891. The USGA followed suit."

Second, I'm sure it couldn't have been Noah.  Well, at least not the one that built THE ark.  He lived long before the 1820's.

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On 4/29/2021 at 8:28 PM, DaveP043 said:

Changes should have a specific reason, they should be an improvement.  Exactly why should the hole diameter be changed?  Its definitely an arbitrary choice, but why would any other arbitrary choice be a better one?

Because a bigger hole would make the game easier.  Duh...

Haha... I've never understood the argument for wanting to change the RoG just to make the game easier.  The reason this game is fun is because it's difficult.  If it was easy, it wouldn't be appealing.

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7 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

 

Change the rules. He should get a mulligan. ITS NOT FAIR!!

Looks like he should have had his caddie tend the flag.

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14 hours ago, sirchunksalot said:

Please excuse me, as I am not as knowledgeable as most of the folks on here as I have not spent copious amounts of time studying the rules of golf. But I have a question to the fairness of the rule. I'm going to post a photo and go from there. Screenshot_20210430-184226.jpg.d395778a637011ccb05226b2278ea303.jpg

Mind you, this is my understanding of the rule so if I'm mistaken, my bad.

Let's say I hit my drive to the black x. My second shot is a toe hooked 3 wood to the red x which is OB. I have the option to hit again from around the original place I hit my shot (black x) with a one stroke penalty meaning I'm hitting my third. Or, I can take a two stroke penalty and hit from the black dot with a two stroke penalty. Now, let's say my third shot after going OB goes to the black dot, isn't my shot from the black dot still my fifth shot?

For this scenario, the black dot is the drop spot for the OB with the two stroke penalty. I'm still hitting my fourth shot from the black dot in both scenarios. 

 

One other point on this is that the option to drop in the fairway where the ball went out of bounds is a local rule and must be invoked prior to the start of play.   This is why it is not generally available as an option in high level competitions.  

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13 hours ago, LICC said:

The color of the stakes is per the rule. You are trying to justify an illogical rule by referencing the rule. Circular logic. 

The color of the stakes is in the rule for consistency and to designate which rule is invoked. 

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12 hours ago, seeking70's said:

Just like last time we debated this topic.  A ball in a water hazard is allowed to be played since it's still on the course.  You can't logically think it's reasonable to play a ball once it's hit off the course.

A ball submerged in water is not physically able to be played. 

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12 hours ago, seeking70's said:

I disagree.  Internal OB is usually defined to protect other players from being hit (adjacent fairway, following tee box...).  There should be a harsh penalty if you're flirting with other peoples' lives.

The recreational golfer who would be the most likely to hit it wayward, would not play the hole any differently if there was one penalty instead of two. And by requiring the next shot from the original spot, you risk another wayward shot to the same place instead of a lateral drip with a one stroke penalty. 

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4 minutes ago, LICC said:

The recreational golfer who would be the most likely to hit it wayward, would not play the hole any differently if there was one penalty instead of two. And by requiring the next shot from the original spot, you risk another wayward shot to the same place instead of a lateral drip with a one stroke penalty. 

Nobody has said the recreational golfer has to play by the stroke and distance rules. And before you even say it, No in my mind a recreational golfer is not posting for a handicap

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

Nobody has said the recreational golfer has to play by the stroke and distance rules. And before you even say it, No in my mind a recreational golfer is not posting for a handicap

Over 2 million Americans keep a handicap. Most are recreational golfers. 

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8 minutes ago, LICC said:

The recreational golfer who would be the most likely to hit it wayward, would not play the hole any differently if there was one penalty instead of two. And by requiring the next shot from the original spot, you risk another wayward shot to the same place instead of a lateral drip with a one stroke penalty. 

I would suggest that they invoke the local rule and take the lateral drop in the fairway and take their 2 stroke penalty.  The new rules allow for that as an option.   I'd be fine with making that a permanent rule and not a local rule for all levels of play.   I think a two stroke penalty is a good penalty for hitting a ball off the course into an area you cannot play from.  

12 minutes ago, LICC said:

A ball submerged in water is not physically able to be played. 

A ball submerged in water can be played.   Whether the water is 1 inch deep or 30 feet deep,  it is still a penalty area and the player has an option to play the ball.  Water isn't treated any different than grass in a penalty area.   You are correct that in some instances the ball cannot be played and the golfer has multiple options to proceed.

 

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

Over 2 million Americans keep a handicap. Most are recreational golfers. 

So when I said before you say it IN MY MIND A RECREATIONAL GOLFER IS NOT POSTING FOR A HANDICAP, you still felt like telling me that they do post a handicap. Got ya!  I’ll make sure to ask you what I think next time I go to post something. 

 

 

 

What is in my Sun Mountain C-130 bag or Jones MyGolfSpy bag

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Fairway: :srixon-small: F85 3 wood with a XPhplexx Agera X @ 42.5”

 :srixon-small: F85 5 wood with a UST Elements Chrome 7F5 @ 41.5"

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Irons: :edel-golf-1: SMS Pros 4-PW with Steelfiber I95s 

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58 minutes ago, cnosil said:

A ball submerged in water can be played

In the physical universe in which we live, a ball submerged in water cannot be played. You still cannot articulate a rational explanation why that should be penalized differently. 

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1 hour ago, cnosil said:

   I think a two stroke penalty is a good penalty for hitting a ball off the course into an area you cannot play from.  

But not for hitting into the bottom of a pond that you cannot play from. Illogical. 

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8 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

So when I said before you say it IN MY MIND A RECREATIONAL GOLFER IS NOT POSTING FOR A HANDICAP, you still felt like telling me that they do post a handicap. Got ya!  I’ll make sure to ask you what I think next time I go to post something. 

The discussion is about what golfers are actually doing. 

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3 minutes ago, LICC said:

The discussion is about what golfers are actually doing. 

No the discussion is about you thinking that the stroke and distance penalty is too harsh for a shot that leaves the design of the course.  The only argument you keep making is that the water ball and ob ball are the same shot when in FACT one leaves the boundary of the course design while the other one remains on the course but unplayable. That is illogical. 

 

 

 

What is in my Sun Mountain C-130 bag or Jones MyGolfSpy bag

Driver:    :cobra-small: Dark speed LS 8* set to -1.5* with an Attas Daaas 4x shaft @ 45”

Fairway: :srixon-small: F85 3 wood with a XPhplexx Agera X @ 42.5”

 :srixon-small: F85 5 wood with a UST Elements Chrome 7F5 @ 41.5"

Driving Iron: :ping-small: Rapture 2-Iron 

Irons: :edel-golf-1: SMS Pros 4-PW with Steelfiber I95s 

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50* T grind with Steelfiber i110s

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 46* zz wedge shaft

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 E grind 54* zz wedge shaft

Putters: :L.A.B.: Mezz.1 34” 69* lie

              :EVNROLL: EV5.1 black 33.5” 69* lie

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

Over 2 million Americans keep a handicap. Most are recreational golfers. 

and there are 24.3 million golfers in America per 2019 statistics.  

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39 minutes ago, LICC said:

But not for hitting into the bottom of a pond that you cannot play from. Illogical. 

Again,  pond is irrelevant; it is a penalty area whether water is present or not. If there was water it could be 1 inch or 20 feet deep.  You are permitted to play the ball from a penalty area. If the ball is laying on the edge of the pond and you are permitted to hit the ball.   You are not permitted to hit a ball if it is out of bounds. 

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