Double Penalty for Out of Bounds

[cnosil]

21 minutes ago, LICC said:

• Out of bounds is a strategic part of the challenge of playing some holes and this would be undermined if players could hit towards out of bounds with less concern for the consequences; Players would have the consequence of one penalty for one bad swing, the same as the strategic challenge of playing a hole with a lateral pond.
• There are sometimes safety reasons to avoid having players play towards out of bounds (such as balls possibly ending up on roads or adjacent properties), such that out of bounds should not be treated as just another obstacle from which relief is allowed; and There are safety reasons to avoid going near ponds and lakes; also, the rules allow for adjacent properties to not be considered OB
• It is fundamentally a different thing to hit a ball outside the boundaries of the course than to hit it on the course and need relief. This is an illogical conclusion and not a reason.

There is a general concern that any reduction in the severity of the penalty for hitting a ball out of bounds could sometimes result in players more often risking a shot near the course boundaries and possibly result in more balls ending up on other property where damage could result. The vast, vast majority of players will not play a hole any differently if the penalty were stroke only instead of stroke and distance. If anything, not re-teeing to go drop would cause less likelihood of another ball going OB. The very, very few players who may (even then unlikely to happen often) play a hole differently because the risk is two penalties instead of one, would be the highly skilled players who are less likely to hit OB.

Fine,  you win,  I'm done. 

[GolfSpy_BNG]

49 minutes ago, LICC said:

There is a general concern that any reduction in the severity of the penalty for hitting a ball out of bounds could sometimes result in players more often risking a shot near the course boundaries and possibly result in more balls ending up on other property where damage could result. The vast, vast majority of players will not play a hole any differently if the penalty were stroke only instead of stroke and distance. If anything, not re-teeing to go drop would cause less likelihood of another ball going OB. The very, very few players who may (even then unlikely to happen often) play a hole differently because the risk is two penalties instead of one, would be the highly skilled players who are less likely to hit OB.

So the rules committee gives a sound reason for the strict penalty  and not reducing it for OB in that they believe SOME PLAYERS MAY risk it more often should the penalty be less and you respond by SPEAKING for the vast, vast majority of golfers?  Not only is your comment more than likely wrong, you have ZERO facts to back it up. 

You have no chance to change anyone’s mind by making comments like this.  This topic just as well be locked up as it has become arguments/complaining for the sake of it.  

[Stuka44]

12 hours ago, LICC said:

The vast, vast majority of players will not play a hole any differently if the penalty were stroke only instead of stroke and distance. If anything, not re-teeing to go drop would cause less likelihood of another ball going OB. The very, very few players who may (even then unlikely to happen often) play a hole differently because the risk is two penalties instead of one, would be the highly skilled players who are less likely to hit OB.

Anytime my ball ends up out of bounds, I can assure you that the above statement is true.  If it does, I can assure you that the risk to the property owner is exactly the same, if I go back to the tee and hit another one.  I wasn't planning on the first one going at his house, but it did.  Now whatever it was in my swing which caused the first one to hook or slice at his house, just may rear its ugly head again, with potentially worse results, I will speak for the vast majority of weekend hackers, ALSO. Very few are  in any real control of weather their ball slices toward someone's house that is OB.     The idea that weekend hackers are evaluating where out of bounds is and would play differently if the penalty was only stroke, and not stroke and distance was clearly written by people who have very little real idea as to what weekend golf is and, who weekend hackers are.  

"Tips Guy" we all know him.  He shoots 110+, and according to him "crushes it 300 yards off the tee", and playing anything less than the "Tips" is beneath him.  The USGA really thinks "tips guy" and those like them are evaluating where out of bounds is and are going to play differently. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by stuka44
spelling correction

[LICC]

12 hours ago, cnosil said:

Fine,  you win

Thank you.

16 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

Anytime my ball ends up out of bounds, I can assure you that the above statement is true.  If it does, I can assure you that the risk to the property owner is exactly the same, if I go back to the tee and hit another one.  I wasn't planning on the first one going at his house, but it did.  Now whatever it was in my swing which caused the first one to hook or slice at his house, just may rear its ugly head again, with potentially worse results, I will speak for the vast majority of weekend hackers, ALSO. Very few are  in any real control of weather their ball slices toward someone's house that is OB.     The idea that weekend hackers are evaluating where out of bounds is and would play differently if the penalty was only stroke, and not stroke and distance was clearly written by people who have very little real idea as to what weekend golf is and, who weekend hackers are.  

"Tips Guy" we all know him.  He shoots 110+, and according to him "crushes it 300 yards off the tee", and playing anything less than the "Tips" is beneath him.  The USGA really thinks "tips guy" and those like them are evaluating where out of bounds is and are going to play differently. 

The main observation is that none of those here who abrasively or otherwise are defending this rule can articulate any reasoned explanation why OB or a pond is any different for purposes of the penalty. All they say is "off the property". That is not a reason.

I could understand if the rules had "Safety Areas" or something like that, which imposed a harsher penalty for balls that go to spots that could be dangerous. But that wouldn't necessarily be all OB. It could be some types of OB areas where there are homes or roads, but also tee boxes, ponds on courses known to have alligators, adjacent fairways where the golfer can't see if other golfers are there, etc. I still wouldn't support it as I think one penalty is enough, but that would at least make some sense, instead of the illogical mish mosh we have now.

Edited May 4, 2021 by LICC

[LICC]

11 hours ago, blackngold_blood said:

So the rules committee gives a sound reason for the strict penalty  and not reducing it for OB in that they believe SOME PLAYERS MAY risk it more often should the penalty be less and you respond by SPEAKING for the vast, vast majority of golfers?  Not only is your comment more than likely wrong, you have ZERO facts to back it up. 

You have no chance to change anyone’s mind by making comments like this.  This topic just as well be locked up as it has become arguments/complaining for the sake of it.  

I have years of experience playing golf with hundreds of other golfers (and @stuka44's comment above). 

[GolfSpy_BNG]

10 minutes ago, LICC said:

I have years of experience playing golf with hundreds of other golfers (and @stuka44's comment above). 

Good Talk!

 

Shouldnt be surprised though. That’s about as fact based as the rest of the argument. 

[DaveP043]

12 hours ago, LICC said:

The vast, vast majority of players will not play a hole any differently if the penalty were stroke only instead of stroke and distance

If thats actually true, it's a clear indication that the vast majority of players make illogical choices on the course.

[cnosil]

21 minutes ago, LICC said:

Thank you

You shouldn’t take it as a compliment and doesn’t mean you are right. 

[LICC]

6 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

If thats actually true, it's a clear indication that the vast majority of players make illogical choices on the course.

Why? They see trouble and play away from if they aren’t confident in their swing, whether there is one penalty or two. 

[DaveP043]

4 minutes ago, LICC said:

Why? They see trouble and play away from if they aren’t confident in their swing, whether there is one penalty or two. 

I'm not going to give you lessons in statistically logical decision making on the golf course.  Please refer to Broadie.

[LICC]

26 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

Good Talk!

 

Shouldnt be surprised though. That’s about as fact based as the rest of the argument. 

Large numbers of anecdotal observations are facts. @stuka44’s observations are facts. You may not agree with the conclusion drawn from them, but they are facts. 

[LICC]

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm not going to give you lessons in statistically logical decision making on the golf course.  Please refer to Broadie.

You think that someone who is worried about a wayward swing would decide to go at a pond because that’s only one penalty, but stay far away from OB because that’s two penalties?  No, sorry, that doesn’t happen with the vast majority. In most all situations, if you are worried about a bad swing, you stay away from either. If you feel confident, you go for your target with either. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by LICC

[GolfSpy_BNG]

22 minutes ago, LICC said:

Large numbers of anecdotal observations are facts. @stuka44’s observations are facts. You may not agree with the conclusion drawn from them, but they are facts. 

Your 100’s of golfers over the years compared to Millions of golfer definitely means you can draw conclusions and speak for them.  If you can’t see how ridiculous that sounds/looks then your deaf/blind!

[Alf. S]

I always try to rationalise rules with examples and find it hard to justify the double penalty. Say you are playing Pebble Beach and you slice one into the sea and it crosses the hazard line at 200 yds but is basically off the planet right you get to drop for 1 stroke penalty. On the flip side if you out hit a dog leg in dry conditions and run under a boundary fence by inches you get stroke and distance. 

For me lost ball and OB should be distance  only i.e play a provisional and if the ball is lost or OB continue on with the provisional. In friendly games I would let you drop one.

[DaveP043]

20 minutes ago, LICC said:

You think that someone who is worried about a wayward swing would decide to go at a pond because that’s only one penalty, but stay far away from OB because that’s two penalties?  No, sorry, that doesn’t happen with the vast majority. In most all situations, if you are worried about a bad swing, you stay away from either. If you feel confident, you go for your target with either. 

I'm saying that it is foolish, completely illogical, to make decisions without considering the severity of the penalty. It is illogical no matter skill level or confidence of the individual player. You may be right, that most players make poor choices, that doesn't change the logic of the appropriate decision-making process.

[LICC]

14 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

Your 100’s of golfers over the years compared to Millions of golfer definitely means you can draw conclusions and speak for them.  If you can’t see how ridiculous that sounds/looks then your deaf/blind!

I can send you information about sampling. 

[LICC]

12 minutes ago, Alf. S said:

I always try to rationalise rules with examples and find it hard to justify the double penalty. Say you are playing Pebble Beach and you slice one into the sea and it crosses the hazard line at 200 yds but is basically off the planet right you get to drop for 1 stroke penalty. On the flip side if you out hit a dog leg in dry conditions and run under a boundary fence by inches you get stroke and distance. 

For me lost ball and OB should be distance  only i.e play a provisional and if the ball is lost or OB continue on with the provisional. In friendly games I would let you drop one.

I agree regarding lost balls too. The analysis is slightly different if you didn’t hit a provisional because you can’t know how much the drop improved your position, but the one stroke penalty does mostly address it. 

[LICC]

12 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm saying that it is foolish, completely illogical, to make decisions without considering the severity of the penalty. It is illogical no matter skill level or confidence of the individual player. You may be right, that most players make poor choices, that doesn't change the logic of the appropriate decision-making process.

Most times people aren’t adjusting anything. They are just trying to hit the fairway and they make a bad swing. They are not playing the hole any differently regardless, and it is not illogical. And for those who do adjust, they do so because a penalty (and probably just as important to them, the negative feeling of a lost ball) is possible, regardless of it being one penalty or a double penalty. 

[GolfSpy_BNG]

18 minutes ago, LICC said:

I can send you information about sampling. 

You can call it sampling/polling or whatever you want it doesn’t make it fact. It is a guesstimate or an opinion based off a small sample/minute size.  Your own words say the Vast, Vast majority but your numbers aren’t even close to it. 

[Stuka44]

I guess I just don't see the logic, in the 7 page off property damage justification, which is then followed up with comments by those supporting it saying that most players make poor choices.  I believe the USGA was in fact trying to indicate, in a very verbose way, that they believe that most golfers are actually considering it before they hit shots on golf holes with OB.

The USGA thinks that the many, many golfers, who shouldn't hit driver off the tee, PERIOD! From the WRONG SET OF TEES LIKELY. Because they CAN'T CONTROL THEIR DRIVER EVEN A LITTLE BIT!    Are actually considering the stroke and distance penalty. 

Golf is not a game where most playing the game for fun, on the weekends really consider the risk reward of OB.  So not changing a rule, which you admit, most people don't follow, and make local rules to circumvent, which if everyone followed the rule religiously, would have,  people hitting a second , DRIVER off the Tee, that they can't control, to prevent them causing off property damage is just not a very good argument.

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by stuka44

[Tom the Golf Nut]

I try not to comment when it comes to the rules of golf. But after reading 9 pages of this on and off for days now I would have though this might have calmed down some. But no...... So here is my two cents and I'm gone.

The rules are the rules and nobody on this forum has the power to change them like it or not. If you don't like the rule don't play by the rule.  Your not on tour and have to make a living following the rules to get a paycheck.  

We are not in the position to raise our hand during play on a Saturday and ask for a rules official. I'm not going to hit out of a bunch of stones in the fairway and ruin a club, break my wrist because my ball is near a tree root that ran into the fairway. There isn't a guy in a tour van just waiting to replace my club for me or a trainer to work on my wrist. If you hit a ball OB (before the rule change) but you thought it was in play and when you get to the ball it isn't. Your not going back to the tee box to hit another on a Saturday at a muni without getting beat to death by the foursome waiting on the tee box that had a few beers. Who hasn't given or received a mulligan on the tee box or moved a ball in the fairway because of a pile of goose droppings right next to the ball. 

Play by the rules or don't it's up to you in a casual round. If your playing for money as long as you both play by the same rules it's fine. If it's not a casual round then you have no choice but to play by the rules. 

[Chip Strokes]

17 hours ago, cnosil said:

Fine,  you win,  I'm done. 

 

4 hours ago, LICC said:

Thank you.

this sums up the whole thread.

can we make a local rule that LICC is always right so we don’t have to go through this ever again?

[GolfSpy_BNG]

4 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

 

this sums up the whole thread.

can we make a local rule that LICC is always right so we don’t have to go through this ever again?

[Chip Strokes]

Just now, blackngold_blood said:

fair. he’d probably complain about that rule too. 

[silver & black]

6 hours ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

I try not to comment when it comes to the rules of golf. But after reading 9 pages of this on and off for days now I would have though this might have calmed down some. But no...... So here is my two cents and I'm gone.

The rules are the rules and nobody on this forum has the power to change them like it or not. If you don't like the rule don't play by the rule.  Your not on tour and have to make a living following the rules to get a paycheck.  

We are not in the position to raise our hand during play on a Saturday and ask for a rules official. I'm not going to hit out of a bunch of stones in the fairway and ruin a club, break my wrist because my ball is near a tree root that ran into the fairway. There isn't a guy in a tour van just waiting to replace my club for me or a trainer to work on my wrist. If you hit a ball OB (before the rule change) but you thought it was in play and when you get to the ball it isn't. Your not going back to the tee box to hit another on a Saturday at a muni without getting beat to death by the foursome waiting on the tee box that had a few beers. Who hasn't given or received a mulligan on the tee box or moved a ball in the fairway because of a pile of goose droppings right next to the ball. 

Play by the rules or don't it's up to you in a casual round. If your playing for money as long as you both play by the same rules it's fine. If it's not a casual round then you have no choice but to play by the rules. 

Best post in this thread.

[THEZIPR23]

9 hours ago, LICC said:

I have years of experience playing golf with hundreds of other golfers (and @stuka44's comment above). 

Thank God I have not had that experience. 

[MaxEntropy]

7 hours ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

I try not to comment when it comes to the rules of golf. But after reading 9 pages of this on and off for days now I would have though this might have calmed down some. But no...... So here is my two cents and I'm gone.

The rules are the rules and nobody on this forum has the power to change them like it or not. If you don't like the rule don't play by the rule.  Your not on tour and have to make a living following the rules to get a paycheck.  

We are not in the position to raise our hand during play on a Saturday and ask for a rules official. I'm not going to hit out of a bunch of stones in the fairway and ruin a club, break my wrist because my ball is near a tree root that ran into the fairway. There isn't a guy in a tour van just waiting to replace my club for me or a trainer to work on my wrist. If you hit a ball OB (before the rule change) but you thought it was in play and when you get to the ball it isn't. Your not going back to the tee box to hit another on a Saturday at a muni without getting beat to death by the foursome waiting on the tee box that had a few beers. Who hasn't given or received a mulligan on the tee box or moved a ball in the fairway because of a pile of goose droppings right next to the ball. 

Play by the rules or don't it's up to you in a casual round. If your playing for money as long as you both play by the same rules it's fine. If it's not a casual round then you have no choice but to play by the rules. 

Wish I could like more than once....

Great post, Tom!

[LICC]

20 hours ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

I try not to comment when it comes to the rules of golf. But after reading 9 pages of this on and off for days now I would have though this might have calmed down some. But no...... So here is my two cents and I'm gone.

The rules are the rules and nobody on this forum has the power to change them like it or not. If you don't like the rule don't play by the rule.  Your not on tour and have to make a living following the rules to get a paycheck.  

We are not in the position to raise our hand during play on a Saturday and ask for a rules official. I'm not going to hit out of a bunch of stones in the fairway and ruin a club, break my wrist because my ball is near a tree root that ran into the fairway. There isn't a guy in a tour van just waiting to replace my club for me or a trainer to work on my wrist. If you hit a ball OB (before the rule change) but you thought it was in play and when you get to the ball it isn't. Your not going back to the tee box to hit another on a Saturday at a muni without getting beat to death by the foursome waiting on the tee box that had a few beers. Who hasn't given or received a mulligan on the tee box or moved a ball in the fairway because of a pile of goose droppings right next to the ball. 

Play by the rules or don't it's up to you in a casual round. If your playing for money as long as you both play by the same rules it's fine. If it's not a casual round then you have no choice but to play by the rules. 

So let’s not even have a forum for discussing golf rules. Just play by whatever rules you want, that’s the answer to everything. 

[Chip Strokes]

8 minutes ago, LICC said:

So let’s not even have a forum for discussing golf rules. Just play by whatever rules you want, that’s the answer to everything. 

if there were a discussion going on in here, you’d have a point. 

but all that’s happening is you digging your heels in that your way is correct and that no one else’s opinions on the subject matter at all. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

21 hours ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

I try not to comment when it comes to the rules of golf. But after reading 9 pages of this on and off for days now I would have though this might have calmed down some. But no...... So here is my two cents and I'm gone.

The rules are the rules and nobody on this forum has the power to change them like it or not. If you don't like the rule don't play by the rule.  Your not on tour and have to make a living following the rules to get a paycheck.  

We are not in the position to raise our hand during play on a Saturday and ask for a rules official. I'm not going to hit out of a bunch of stones in the fairway and ruin a club, break my wrist because my ball is near a tree root that ran into the fairway. There isn't a guy in a tour van just waiting to replace my club for me or a trainer to work on my wrist. If you hit a ball OB (before the rule change) but you thought it was in play and when you get to the ball it isn't. Your not going back to the tee box to hit another on a Saturday at a muni without getting beat to death by the foursome waiting on the tee box that had a few beers. Who hasn't given or received a mulligan on the tee box or moved a ball in the fairway because of a pile of goose droppings right next to the ball. 

Play by the rules or don't it's up to you in a casual round. If your playing for money as long as you both play by the same rules it's fine. If it's not a casual round then you have no choice but to play by the rules. 

Thank you for this post. It is very much my view and I have been similar in popping in and out reading but not commenting. This sums up my feelings on the topic. If this was my livelihood or tournament I was playing in 100% follow the rules all the time without question. However as a casual golfer who loves the game for what it is, I am not ruining a club or breaking something trying to do something foolish because of a rule. I will account for it in my score and enjoy the rest of my round.

To give a quick note with OB and it's effects or non effects on a golfer, my old course I worked and played at had a nice blind uphill par 3 then a fun tight long par 5 following it. All along the right hand side there were houses and some wooded area. The course put up a net on the right hand side to try and stop balls from going into peoples property. There was also another fairway on the left for the part 5 as a bail out area. However after 3 or so seasons the cost of putting the net up and maintaining it along with all the complaints from the homeowners with golfballs in their yards or on their roofs the course changed the layout completely. Turned the tee box on the par 3 and put a green part way in the fairway of the par 5 and made it a par 4 (the hardest one on the course too) they then made a new par 4 on another part of the property. This was all because regardless of whether it was OB or not people still hit the ball over there and caused damage and a lot of nonsense regardless of any penalties to their scorecard.