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Double Penalty for Out of Bounds


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Almost 10 pages of this nonsense 🙄. The only logical conclusion to help poor @LICC is to point him toward a lesson on how to hit the ball straighter 😂.

 

Good luck!

EDIT: And wouldn’t you know it, this post marks the first of the 10th page lol

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I try not to comment when it comes to the rules of golf. But after reading 9 pages of this on and off for days now I would have though this might have calmed down some. But no...... So here is my two

Why is rolling through a Stop sign different than rolling through a Yield sign?  Its an identical action, treated differently based on the shape and color of the sign.  Because the folks who have set

Just my opinion, but who said golf is fair? You get penalized for well-struck shots occasionally, and you get away with poor ones from time to time. I have a buddy who’s only ace came from a bladed 9

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In all seriousness though, every organized sport I can think of have boundaries which limit the field of play and rules that govern what should happen in the event those boundaries are crossed. Should an NFL WR or RB be allowed to continue down the field after stepping OB? What about soccer? A bad kick that goes OB stops play and gives the ball to the other team, but what about a bad pass that misses the intended receiver and winds up being recovered by another teammate? Once again, you’ve decided to dig in on a silly argument based on a line of reasoning that quite frankly has no reason to it! Play the game however you want, but the rules are the rules and they are the same for everyone on the course. That’s fair enough in my book.

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32 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

In all seriousness though, every organized sport I can think of have boundaries which limit the field of play and rules that govern what should happen in the event those boundaries are crossed. Should an NFL WR or RB be allowed to continue down the field after stepping OB? What about soccer? A bad kick that goes OB stops play and gives the ball to the other team, but what about a bad pass that misses the intended receiver and winds up being recovered by another teammate? Once again, you’ve decided to dig in on a silly argument based on a line of reasoning that quite frankly has no reason to it! Play the game however you want, but the rules are the rules and they are the same for everyone on the course. That’s fair enough in my book.

I don’t think the OP is disagreeing with what you are saying. He isn’t against OB, he just believes the penalty is too harsh and that he doesn’t see a “logical” reason to justify stroke and distance as the only option. His personal logic is that hitting into a penalty area and having the ball be unplayable is the no different than hitting the ball OB and the official rules; not local rules, should allow a drop and one stroke penalty as an option. He continues that not all players can control their ball well enough to adjust and avoid an OB.  Because these penalty areas and OB are equivalent, making a decision designating OB as functionally different isn’t “logical” and therefore the penalty needs to change.  
our counter just like yours is that just because you don’t like or understand the logic doesn’t mean that sound logic and reasoning was applied.   I’ve stopped trying to explain and show the justification because the OP isn’t receptive to counter discussion and we have even had people stating that the hole size needs to change because 4.25” isn’t logical anymore and that we are using tradition as the logic for keeping it the same.  As we are 10 pages deep into the discussion the only “logical” thing to do is close this thread; but obviously logic really isn’t used.  

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30 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I don’t think the OP is disagreeing with what you are saying. He isn’t against OB, he just believes the penalty is too harsh and that he doesn’t see a “logical” reason to justify stroke and distance as the only option. His personal logic is that hitting into a penalty area and having the ball be unplayable is the no different than hitting the ball OB and the official rules; not local rules, should allow a drop and one stroke penalty as an option. He continues that not all players can control their ball well enough to adjust and avoid an OB.  Because these penalty areas and OB are equivalent, making a decision designating OB as functionally different isn’t “logical” and therefore the penalty needs to change.  
our counter just like yours is that just because you don’t like or understand the logic doesn’t mean that sound logic and reasoning was applied.   I’ve stopped trying to explain and show the justification because the OP isn’t receptive to counter discussion and we have even had people stating that the hole size needs to change because 4.25” isn’t logical anymore and that we are using tradition as the logic for keeping it the same.  As we are 10 pages deep into the discussion the only “logical” thing to do is close this thread; but obviously logic really isn’t used.  

I understand what he’s saying, and my point is that it really doesn’t matter. OB and Penalty Area are two different things in absolutely every respect. I realize my argument didn’t squarely reflect his points, but I wasn’t trying to. My point is simply that there are clear distinctions in the rules of every sport and for good reason. As for golf, plenty of fantastic reasonings have been given for the rules and penalties applied, but he simply doesn’t care. Course architects and rules committees are provided a tremendous amount of freedom when designing courses including where and how they want to establish penalties against the golfer. In the case of Pebble Beach, which has been cited many times, the rules committee has clearly decided that wayward shots into the ocean are deemed to be in a Penalty Area and not OB. They could reverse that decision tomorrow if they wanted. It’s really a poor example. In the case of all these supposed golfers that play without any regard as to their natural shot shape and miss tendencies, I call BS. I’ve never seen a “bad” golfer who knowingly slices the ball show such disregard when lining up their tee shot. If the argument is meant to make the game more appealing to beginners, well I’ve never seen a new golfer properly impose all the rules against themselves. Very few even know how to take relief or perform a correct drop, and I don’t expect them to. I don’t think anyone expects them to. I certainly didn’t play by ALL the rules when I was new to golf, but as I progressed and learned more about the game, I sought to challenge myself by imposing more of the rules. When it comes to the purpose of maintaining a handicap, who in their right mind is trying to maintain a handicap if they are not either A) competing in tournaments where handicaps are used and rules strictly enforced, or B) seeking to determine where they stand in terms of skill level within the greater golfing community? In order to effectively do either, you must assume that everyone is playing by the rules and do the same. Like I said before, fair enough in my book.

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14 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

I understand what he’s saying, and my point is that it really doesn’t matter. OB and Penalty Area are two different things in absolutely every respect. I realize my argument didn’t squarely reflect his points, but I wasn’t trying to. My point is simply that there are clear distinctions in the rules of every sport and for good reason. As for golf, plenty of fantastic reasonings have been given for the rules and penalties applied, but he simply doesn’t care. Course architects and rules committees are provided a tremendous amount of freedom when designing courses including where and how they want to establish penalties against the golfer. In the case of Pebble Beach, which has been cited many times, the rules committee has clearly decided that wayward shots into the ocean are deemed to be in a Penalty Area and not OB. They could reverse that decision tomorrow if they wanted. It’s really a poor example. In the case of all these supposed golfers that play without any regard as to their natural shot shape and miss tendencies, I call BS. I’ve never seen a “bad” golfer who knowingly slices the ball show such disregard when lining up their tee shot. If the argument is meant to make the game more appealing to beginners, well I’ve never seen a new golfer properly impose all the rules against themselves. Very few even know how to take relief or perform a correct drop, and I don’t expect them to. I don’t think anyone expects them to. I certainly didn’t play by ALL the rules when I was new to golf, but as I progressed and learned more about the game, I sought to challenge myself by imposing more of the rules. When it comes to the purpose of maintaining a handicap, who in their right mind is trying to maintain a handicap if they are not either A) competing in tournaments where handicaps are used and rules strictly enforced, or B) seeking to determine where they stand in terms of skill level within the greater golfing community? In order to effectively do either, you must assume that everyone is playing by the rules and do the same. Like I said before, fair enough in my book.

5E5B66F0-40C8-4720-9570-8841D0BEADE9.gif.24ca192042c024a0f55c36c83455a365.gif

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11 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

5E5B66F0-40C8-4720-9570-8841D0BEADE9.gif.24ca192042c024a0f55c36c83455a365.gif

Such a funny movie 😂😂😂 Good GIF!

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30 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

I understand what he’s saying, and my point is that it really doesn’t matter. OB and Penalty Area are two different things in absolutely every respect. I realize my argument didn’t squarely reflect his points, but I wasn’t trying to. My point is simply that there are clear distinctions in the rules of every sport and for good reason. As for golf, plenty of fantastic reasonings have been given for the rules and penalties applied, but he simply doesn’t care. Course architects and rules committees are provided a tremendous amount of freedom when designing courses including where and how they want to establish penalties against the golfer. In the case of Pebble Beach, which has been cited many times, the rules committee has clearly decided that wayward shots into the ocean are deemed to be in a Penalty Area and not OB. They could reverse that decision tomorrow if they wanted. It’s really a poor example. In the case of all these supposed golfers that play without any regard as to their natural shot shape and miss tendencies, I call BS. I’ve never seen a “bad” golfer who knowingly slices the ball show such disregard when lining up their tee shot. If the argument is meant to make the game more appealing to beginners, well I’ve never seen a new golfer properly impose all the rules against themselves. Very few even know how to take relief or perform a correct drop, and I don’t expect them to. I don’t think anyone expects them to. I certainly didn’t play by ALL the rules when I was new to golf, but as I progressed and learned more about the game, I sought to challenge myself by imposing more of the rules. When it comes to the purpose of maintaining a handicap, who in their right mind is trying to maintain a handicap if they are not either A) competing in tournaments where handicaps are used and rules strictly enforced, or B) seeking to determine where they stand in terms of skill level within the greater golfing community? In order to effectively do either, you must assume that everyone is playing by the rules and do the same. Like I said before, fair enough in my book.

How is hitting OB or hitting to the bottom of a pond effectively different? Please give me one of these "fantastic" reasons, and don't say "OB is off the property" because that is not a reason for treating it differently. 

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11 minutes ago, LICC said:

How is hitting OB or hitting to the bottom of a pond effectively different? Please give me one of these "fantastic" reasons, and don't say "OB is off the property" because that is not a reason for treating it differently. 

LICC:  You know the reason, because millions of golfers, who can't control their drives off the tee, are just waiting for the rule to change, so that they will no longer have to REIGN themselves in off the tee, and hit away from OB because of the distance part of the penalty.  I can almost hear the hundreds of thousands additional windows shattering as I sit here.

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24 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

Such a funny movie 😂😂😂 Good GIF!

Right!  Cuz your not not gonna get Randy Jackson’s autograph 🤣

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46 minutes ago, LICC said:

How is hitting OB or hitting to the bottom of a pond effectively different? Please give me one of these "fantastic" reasons, and don't say "OB is off the property" because that is not a reason for treating it differently. 

Did you seriously just ask this question? 😂 I see why you're so upset now!

EDIT: I'll actually address it more directly @LICC, but this is the only time as I have a 3 year old at home to chase around in circles and he is significantly more important to me than you.

The most simple reason I can give for OB in any sport - especially golf - is to impose strategy upon the players. That's it. If I'm faced with OB right and water left, I'm favoring the water every single time (preferably with a club that will either stop short of or carry the water). Is stroke and distance an arbitrary penalty? Sure, but I personally wouldn't seek to replace it. I think OB should carry more weight than a Penalty Area. Golf courses tend to border private property that does not belong to the club. It would be trespassing to even collect your ball - which is why many homeowners will make a big deal if you try to do it - just because this is not so in all places doesn't mean the rule should change.

Here's another fun thought exercise for you since you seem to think OB and Penalty Areas are the same. Let's say Golfer A and Golfer B are playing together. They tee off on a par 3. It's very straightforward, no water or bunkering to carry, just grass with some trees on either side of the hole. Golfer A tees off and hits the best shot he's ever struck right on line with the hole. The ball lands 15 feet short. Golfer B shanks it and ricochets off one of the trees. The ball careens onto the green and rolls into the cup. Hole-in-one! But wait, that's not fair! Golfer A hit the best shot of his life! He should be allowed to pick his ball up, place it in the hole, and exclaim that he too hit a hole-in-one.  It's not the same is it? Let's even say that Golfer B didn't shank it. Maybe he just thinned it. It wasn't a good shot, but it's an absolute laser and going right at the hole. It tumbles up the front edge of the green and rolls in for an ace. Does Golfer A now feel cheated? Does he get mad and storm off the course due to unfairness? Or, does he celebrate the rare feat with his playing partner and laugh about how he should go buy lottery tickets?

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5 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

Did you seriously just ask this question? 😂 I see why you're so upset now!

That is pretty much the argument he uses over and over again and then complains when we say that it is an area that is simply considered different and treated differently.    

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6 minutes ago, cnosil said:

That is pretty much the argument he uses over and over again and then complains when we say that it is an area that is simply considered different and treated differently.    

He just hadn't stated it so plainly until now lol. He may as well have asked why purple isn't yellow!

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To the OP what are you hoping to accomplish with this discussion?  Regardless of its opinion(s) this community does not have the ability to change the rule.  Frankly, this ones different from the divot rule.  That one would always bring controversy and lengthen rounds if it were changed.  I've always wanted to have this one change - just make all OBs penalty areas and proceed under the same rules.  It's not because I think that the rule is particularly unfair, it's because I think the one I'm suggesting is simpler.

 

Having written that the rule for now is what it is and if you want to play any sort of competitive golf you have to live with it.  Like it or not it alters strategy - I am extremely unwilling to take on an out of bounds stake where as I might another form of penalty that is not as severe - you must make the same choice if we are playing a match - its the same for both of us.

 

Base on the several discussions that we have been a part of together you seem obsessed with making golf "fair."  Exactly what that looks like is difficult for me to wrap my mind around.  I have never thought of golf as fair or if I have it's been a long time since I have.  I can live with that because fair or not I enjoy it.  

 

So I will go back to my original question - what are you hoping to accomplish by this discussion?  The USGA and the R and A make the rules, not MGS or any other Golf Forum.

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Posted (edited)

This is my last word on this!  I am not in any way trying to speak for the original poster.  But the problem I have, and a little of the concern,( and I know "concerns" like "fairness" is hard do define precisely) that golf has    is summed up by these 10 pages. Concerns ... (pace of play, the game is too hard to learn, the rules are too complicated, rounds take too long, its too expensive, Millions of people try it but don't stick with it, there isn't enough youth involvement,  100+ courses are closing yearly, the list goes on and on.)

The fact that people are "questioned" merely for "questioning" if a rule change "might" be better( however that is defined) is part of the problem.  Also that many of the comments I saw in these 10 pages, immediately went to suggesting and implying  that because a "possible rule change was suggested" and questioned, must mean that anyone suggesting some change or even alteration of a rule, ARE SECRETLY TRYING TO DESTROY THE GAME IN ITS ENTIRETY, is part of the problem.

  "What are you trying to accomplish".    All  of recorded Human History is filled with one example after another, where people questioned rules, because they believed more "fairness" or "justice" would be achieved by "challenging" the rule or law, even though those who made the rule or law, and those who just blindly followed it, PROBABLY THOUGHT IT WAS OK, AND DIDN'T NEED TO BE CHANGED.  MAKE NO MISTAKE THAT 99.99% OF THOSE CHALLENGES WERE VASTLY MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE GAME OF GOLF.

My cautionary tale would be don't look at all of these "small" discussions over golf in a vacuum.   Is PICKLE BALL, going to replace professional tennis, probably not, but are public tennis courts rapidly being converted into pickle ball courts, you bet they are, because its simpler, easier, and just plain old not as hard(as hard as that is to define).  Just food for thought. 

I would say we accomplished exactly what is needed, a well thought out discussion, to keep the idea alive that maybe everything is not absolutely perfect with the game of golf.

 

I'M OUT OF THIS ONE!    

Edited by stuka44
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One thing that appears missing in the argument is why the rules were written.  They were not written for the masses playing public courses with wild abandon and swilling beer.  They were written to establish a set of standards for the competition of the game of golf.  They don't arbitrarily say "let's come up with a penalty that will f*** with the hacker that can't control his ball flight".  

Very few courses have an OB area that a player will intentionally try to hit into in order to obtain an advantage in his ball position, although there are a few.  On the other hand, every hazard that is built into the hole has a risk reward factor that was thought out by the course designer.  There are many times that you'll try to carry the pond in order to improve your position.  There are few times that you aim OB and hope to hook it back into the fairway.  (Personal opinion is that there should NEVER be an in-course OB -- perimeter only!).  That is why you're penalized heavier for going OB, not because you haven't mastered how not to hit a wicked slice every time you tee it up.

Whether you agree with the penalties or not, whining about it in here doesn't solve a thing.  Don't like the rules?  Write a letter to the USGA or R&A and defend your position with them.  They're the ones that can do anything about your ideas.

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35 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

This is my last word on this!  I am not in any way trying to speak for the original poster.  But the problem I have, and a little of the concern,( and I know "concerns" like "fairness" is hard do define precisely) that golf has    is summed up by these 10 pages. Concerns ... (pace of play, the game is too hard to learn, the rules are too complicated, rounds take too long, its too expensive, Millions of people try it but don't stick with it, there isn't enough youth involvement,  100+ courses are closing yearly, the list goes on and on.)

The fact that people are "questioned" merely for "questioning" if a rule change "might" be better( however that is defined) is part of the problem.  Also that many of the comments I saw in these 10 pages, immediately went to suggesting and implying  that because a "possible rule change was suggested" and questioned, must mean that anyone suggesting some change or even alteration of a rule, ARE SECRETLY TRYING TO DESTROY THE GAME IN ITS ENTIRETY, is part of the problem.

  "What are you trying to accomplish".    All  of recorded Human History is filled with one example after another, where people questioned rules, because they believed more "fairness" or "justice" would be achieved by "challenging" the rule or law.  MAKE NO MISTAKE THAT 99.99% OF THOSE CHALLENGES WERE VASTLY MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE GAME OF GOLF.

My cautionary tale would be don't look at all of these "small" discussions over golf in a vacuum.   Is PICKLE BALL, going to replace professional tennis, probably not, but are public tennis courts rapidly being converted into pickle ball courts, you bet they are, because its simpler, easier, and just plain old not as hard(as hard as that is to define).  Just food for thought. 

I would say we accomplished exactly what is needed, a well thought out discussion, to keep the idea alive that maybe everything is not absolutely perfect with the game of golf.

 

I'M OUT OF THIS ONE!    

The problem with this discussion is not (nor has it ever been) the suggestion that a penalty for OB should weigh the same as a Penalty Area. If that were all, this thread would have already been vacated. The reason this thread has gone on for 10 pages and continues to do so is the failure of the OP to accept differing points of view and adamantly digging in on the position; refuting solid reasoning and evidence from multiple forum users. I personally don’t care that the penalty for OB is greater than that of a Penalty Area - same for a lost ball. The rules are the rules and I intend to play by them as best I can. As stated many times, the rules allow a ball to be played from a Penalty Area if the player feels they can reasonably do so. Just because it’s possible the Penalty Area might consist of a pond with 10’ deep of water is a non-factor. He’s choosing to focus on what happens to the ball itself rather than how strokes should be counted which is why he takes issue with the idea that a ball submerged in small amounts of water can still be played - it goes against his initial claim that OB and Penalty Area are the same and should be treated as such.

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I am sorry if this has been answered or not already. I've done my best to keep up with the thread, but its been a lot. 

I guess it has a few parts to it- How many of your (everyone) courses have OB?
-Since OB is a more penalized area have you (again everyone) seen courses change to penalty areas since the new rules a couple years back?
-Have new OB been put in at any of the courses you play? In recent memory.

I ask these, because I played a few courses that newly opened in the last few years and noticed that they had made everything a Penalty area rather then OB stakes. Which along with most courses I have played they don't have much in the way of OB. Truly almost all the courses I normally played only had penalty areas with the exceptions of a few.  Even some changed or removed some OB and made them Penalty Areas instead.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TR1PTIK said:

Did you seriously just ask this question? 😂 I see why you're so upset now!

EDIT: I'll actually address it more directly @LICC, but this is the only time as I have a 3 year old at home to chase around in circles and he is significantly more important to me than you.

The most simple reason I can give for OB in any sport - especially golf - is to impose strategy upon the players. That's it. If I'm faced with OB right and water left, I'm favoring the water every single time (preferably with a club that will either stop short of or carry the water). Is stroke and distance an arbitrary penalty? Sure, but I personally wouldn't seek to replace it. I think OB should carry more weight than a Penalty Area. Golf courses tend to border private property that does not belong to the club. It would be trespassing to even collect your ball - which is why many homeowners will make a big deal if you try to do it - just because this is not so in all places doesn't mean the rule should change.

Here's another fun thought exercise for you since you seem to think OB and Penalty Areas are the same. Let's say Golfer A and Golfer B are playing together. They tee off on a par 3. It's very straightforward, no water or bunkering to carry, just grass with some trees on either side of the hole. Golfer A tees off and hits the best shot he's ever struck right on line with the hole. The ball lands 15 feet short. Golfer B shanks it and ricochets off one of the trees. The ball careens onto the green and rolls into the cup. Hole-in-one! But wait, that's not fair! Golfer A hit the best shot of his life! He should be allowed to pick his ball up, place it in the hole, and exclaim that he too hit a hole-in-one.  It's not the same is it? Let's even say that Golfer B didn't shank it. Maybe he just thinned it. It wasn't a good shot, but it's an absolute laser and going right at the hole. It tumbles up the front edge of the green and rolls in for an ace. Does Golfer A now feel cheated? Does he get mad and storm off the course due to unfairness? Or, does he celebrate the rare feat with his playing partner and laugh about how he should go buy lottery tickets?

Absolutely nothing in what you said here gives any reason why OB and the bottom of a pond are effectively different for purposes of penalties.

As to your lucky bounce off a tree scenario, that is a result of the natural configuration and variety of the course. I never said there shouldn't be lucky breaks or bad breaks. I am saying that the rules themselves should not be unfair and illogical in their design.

Edited by LICC
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2 hours ago, cnosil said:

That is pretty much the argument he uses over and over again and then complains when we say that it is an area that is simply considered different and treated differently.    

Exactly- it just is and there is no reason. Don't question illogical rules because they are the rules and that is what they are.

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2 hours ago, revkev said:

To the OP what are you hoping to accomplish with this discussion?  Regardless of its opinion(s) this community does not have the ability to change the rule.  Frankly, this ones different from the divot rule.  That one would always bring controversy and lengthen rounds if it were changed.  I've always wanted to have this one change - just make all OBs penalty areas and proceed under the same rules.  It's not because I think that the rule is particularly unfair, it's because I think the one I'm suggesting is simpler.

 

Having written that the rule for now is what it is and if you want to play any sort of competitive golf you have to live with it.  Like it or not it alters strategy - I am extremely unwilling to take on an out of bounds stake where as I might another form of penalty that is not as severe - you must make the same choice if we are playing a match - its the same for both of us.

 

Base on the several discussions that we have been a part of together you seem obsessed with making golf "fair."  Exactly what that looks like is difficult for me to wrap my mind around.  I have never thought of golf as fair or if I have it's been a long time since I have.  I can live with that because fair or not I enjoy it.  

 

So I will go back to my original question - what are you hoping to accomplish by this discussion?  The USGA and the R and A make the rules, not MGS or any other Golf Forum.

I'm hoping for what this forum and all forums like this are meant to be- a place where people with the same interests can have a discussion and share views. Unfortunately I get attacked for questioning certain views and asking for valid logical reasoning. 

I'm also hoping that those with open minds may think about it differently and consider my view, and that others could possibly highlight some reasoning or explanation that I am not seeing to help better inform me and others.

I look to make the rules fair, or the design of a course to be fair, not the execution or that random breaks of nature.

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