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Double Penalty for Out of Bounds


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Wasn't this whole thing addressed with the local rule in the last rule iteration? 

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46 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Wasn't this whole thing addressed with the local rule in the last rule iteration? 

No, the local rule is still a double penalty as you have to take a two stroke penalty. There is no longer a distance penalty if using the local rule but the stroke penalty is doubled.

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5 hours ago, LICC said:

. If you hit into a lake that is adjacent to the fairway, you drop from the point the ball crossed into the lake. 

Let's be correct if you hit into a red staked penalty area,  one option is to drop from the point the ball crossed into the lake.  

Also you are most likely giving up some distance as the ball doesn't stop when it crosses the line for the penalty area.    Why not go drop at a point even to where the ball stopped?

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  • 3 weeks later...

As someone who currently still hits too many balls OB, I agree that it should be changed. Once I'm hitting less balls OB, they can feel free to change it back. 

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If you are leaving the boundary of the course, then I have no problem with the penalty. It has even cost me in a tournament. I’m not mad the OB is there. I was mad I’ve played courses where there are internal OB stakes and I don’t agree with those. You shouldn’t be penalized  the same way. 

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I thought in the revision they allowed for a local rule that everything could be played as red stakes?

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55 minutes ago, JeremyD said:

If you are leaving the boundary of the course, then I have no problem with the penalty. It has even cost me in a tournament. I’m not mad the OB is there. I was mad I’ve played courses where there are internal OB stakes and I don’t agree with those. You shouldn’t be penalized  the same way. 

Why is hitting 6 inches past a white stake a worse swing than hitting it to the bottom of a pond? The boundary of the course is not a meaningful difference- either way you can't play your ball.

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14 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Why is rolling through a Stop sign different than rolling through a Yield sign?  Its an identical action, treated differently based on the shape and color of the sign.  Because the folks who have set up the rules have decided that different penalties are appropriate.  Just as golf's ruling bodies have done.  It is meaningful because it is specifically defined as being meaningful.

Yes, golf's ruling bodies made a rule. That doesn't make it perfection. Golf's rules have been changed often through the years. And this one specifically has changed multiple times. This rule as it currently stands is illogical and imperfect. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/19/2021 at 9:28 AM, LICC said:

Yes, golf's ruling bodies made a rule. That doesn't make it perfection. Golf's rules have been changed often through the years. And this one specifically has changed multiple times. This rule as it currently stands is illogical and imperfect. 

LICC you are 100 % correct. Many golf rules are illogical and imperfect.  I've come to realize that to many clinging to, and defending the rules of golf,  seems to be "holy grail" quest like.  I can't explain it.   My suggestion would be to not worry about it.  I realize sometimes its just fun to talk about.  In the end its like many aspects of life and living.  Unfortunately the answer you get is the quintessential  "well this is the way we've always done it, why change?"  The rules of golf are stuck right at the very top of the list of things adhering to this mantra.  Change whatever rules you like and play to have fun.  If you are playing in official events, then don't hold your breath for any quick changes to make the game of golf more logical, and I would say enjoyable.

After all don't forget that the size of the golf hole can't be changed because some guy in the 1890's was too lazy to go and find a bigger piece of drain pipe, even though when he picked up the 4.25 inch one he likely lamented, "boy this is awful small, I think there is a bigger piece in the shed a ways away.... aw forget it its lunch time, we'll just use this.  But I guess in the age of stats I guess a hole size that renders professionals who practice hundreds if not a thousand putts a week capable of making just 50% of their putts from 8 feet is just right.  My gosh the uproar for suggesting such a thing.  Its like Noah received the dimensions for the ark, and the size of the golf hole at the same time🤣.

 

Edited by stuka44
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9 hours ago, stuka44 said:

After all don't forget that the size of the golf hole can't be changed because some guy in the 1890's was too lazy to go and find a bigger piece of drain pipe, even though when he picked up the 4.25 inch one he likely lamented, "boy this is awful small, I think there is a bigger piece in the shed a ways away.... aw forget it its lunch time, we'll just use this.  But I guess in the age of stats I guess a hole size that renders professionals who practice hundreds if not a thousand putts a week capable of making just 50% of their putts from 8 feet is just right.  My gosh the uproar for suggesting such a thing.  Its like Noah received the dimensions for the ark, and the size of the golf hole at the same time

Changes should have a specific reason, they should be an improvement.  Exactly why should the hole diameter be changed?  Its definitely an arbitrary choice, but why would any other arbitrary choice be a better one?

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9 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Changes should have a specific reason, they should be an improvement.  Exactly why should the hole diameter be changed?  Its definitely an arbitrary choice, but why would any other arbitrary choice be a better one?

It’s not necessarily my position, but it is reasonable to say that a smaller hole size places too much difficult scoring emphasis on mid-range putts. 

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12 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Changes should have a specific reason, they should be an improvement.  Exactly why should the hole diameter be changed?  Its definitely an arbitrary choice, but why would any other arbitrary choice be a better one?

I simply pointed out the arbitrary nature of the origins of the golf hole size, as an example.  I think a very simplistic answer would be success, and I would suggest more fun for more people.  I know they will never change it.  What percentage of fairways to mid high handicappers hit in a round 25-30 % success, greens in regulation 25-30% success, and when you finally get your ball to  10 feet from the hole on a 380 yard par 4, covering 99.2% of the distance you still going to make (be successful) 2.5 - maybe 4 putts out of 10.  Success making pars, birdies, which is the goal of golf according to the rules makers .  I had 37% pars, and 4.5% birdies in 28 rounds last year.  I guess my point was simply that many of the rules established 120 years ago were in fact ARBITRARY, and are illogical when it comes to having people of all levels be "successful" when it comes to playing the game.  If it was arbitrary when it began, then why is a specific reason needed to change something which was arbitrary?

 

 

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1 hour ago, stuka44 said:

I simply pointed out the arbitrary nature of the origins of the golf hole size, as an example.  I think a very simplistic answer would be success, and I would suggest more fun for more people.  I know they will never change it.  What percentage of fairways to mid high handicappers hit in a round 25-30 % success, greens in regulation 25-30% success, and when you finally get your ball to  10 feet from the hole on a 380 yard par 4, covering 99.2% of the distance you still going to make (be successful) 2.5 - maybe 4 putts out of 10.  Success making pars, birdies, which is the goal of golf according to the rules makers .  I had 37% pars, and 4.5% birdies in 28 rounds last year.  I guess my point was simply that many of the rules established 120 years ago were in fact ARBITRARY, and are illogical when it comes to having people of all levels be "successful" when it comes to playing the game.  If it was arbitrary when it began, then why is a specific reason needed to change something which was arbitrary?

Most games have rules that were arbitrarily made up.  People may not want to change the size of the hole because of tradition and that is the way golfs forefathers wanted to play.  There have been experiments with larger holes so it isn’t unprecedented   https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/04/golf-15-inch-holes

What does successful mean and why does everyone have to be successful?

if you are playing golf for fun, play by the rules you want and ignore the ones you don’t like.  Want a bigger hole, pretend the hole is bigger; don’t want to hit from a divot move your ball; don’t want to follow stroke and distance penalties then don’t.  
 

maybe I have just learned in my life that the rules are the rules and I will follow them.  If it is a game and I am just playing for fun, I’ll break the rules; like moving the ball off a tree root to prevent injury or damaging my club.   I am not opposed to rule changes or change in general; but when playing a game the rules are the rules.  Additionally, Any rule change would be arbitrary; banning anchor putting could be considered arbitrary just like making the hole 6 inches would be arbitrary.  Courses make changes occasionally  by changing the routing to not be 9 or 18 holes, bigger holes as you suggested, creating holes with par greater than 5.  
 

While we may not like some of the rules, other than the irritation that they seem to cause there really isn’t a specific reason to change them.  

 

 

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40 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Most games have rules that were arbitrarily made up.  People may not want to change the size of the hole because of tradition and that is the way golfs forefathers wanted to play.  There have been experiments with larger holes so it isn’t unprecedented   https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/04/golf-15-inch-holes

What does successful mean and why does everyone have to be successful?

if you are playing golf for fun, play by the rules you want and ignore the ones you don’t like.  Want a bigger hole, pretend the hole is bigger; don’t want to hit from a divot move your ball; don’t want to follow stroke and distance penalties then don’t.  
 

maybe I have just learned in my life that the rules are the rules and I will follow them.  If it is a game and I am just playing for fun, I’ll break the rules; like moving the ball off a tree root to prevent injury or damaging my club.   I am not opposed to rule changes or change in general; but when playing a game the rules are the rules.  Additionally, Any rule change would be arbitrary; banning anchor putting could be considered arbitrary just like making the hole 6 inches would be arbitrary.  Courses make changes occasionally  by changing the routing to not be 9 or 18 holes, bigger holes as you suggested, creating holes with par greater than 5.  
 

While we may not like some of the rules, other than the irritation that they seem to cause there really isn’t a specific reason to change them.  

 

 

When a rule itself creates a fundamental inequity, such as the double penalty for out of bounds, that is a specific reason to change. 

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25 minutes ago, LICC said:

When a rule itself creates a fundamental inequity, such as the double penalty for out of bounds, that is a specific reason to change. 

You view it as an inequity.  It is more severe but not unfair.  You typically cite water vs OB;  OB typically marks course boundaries and water is an integral part of the course.  We could also argue that forced carries are unfair since not everyone can hit the ball far enough to carry even with their longest club.  Lost balls should be a one stroke penalty and not stroke and distance.  It is also a bad rule that I get penalized for swinging a practice aid on the course.  I should get a free drop if I am behind a tree and I might hurt myself or break a club.  Lift clean and place should always be in effect because dirt on a ball is unfair.  
The rules aren’t designed to be fair.  Don’t want a stroke and distance penalty then hit the ball better or play a safer shot.  

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1 hour ago, cnosil said:

 People may not want to change the size of the hole because of tradition and that is the way golfs forefathers wanted to play.

This was my point exactly!  "It's the way its always been and you'll pry the 4.25 inch cup maker from my cold dead hand"!, and don't forget that  golfs rules were made by people who literally thought they were a better class of human being(not just wealthier) than others.   

 I am also glad that the thoughts of the "forefathers" of the rules regarding the forward pass (1906) in football were quickly discounted as originally an incomplete pass touched by the receiver was a 15 yard penalty, and an incomplete pass not touched by the receiver was a turnover.

And I take nothing personal, but I'm pretty sure I am not the only one who senses a little disdain for those of us willing to openly admit flaunting of the rules, and my belief that making the game more "fun", and changing the rules to allow people to play the game and follow the rules, because you are right most people want to follow the rules and conform and not be rules breakers, and not be ridiculed or looked down upon for not following the rules, may be  a valid reason to consider changing any given rule of the game.  

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When you're playing casual golf, do whatever you want.  But if you're playing competitive golf, play by the rules.  What's so difficult about this?  Of course, if you don't play by the rules in the casual rounds and use those rounds to establish a handicap, it will only hurt you if and when you play competitively.  

 

 

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2 minutes ago, CarlH said:

When you're playing casual golf, do whatever you want.  But if you're playing competitive golf, play by the rules.  What's so difficult about this?  Of course, if you don't play by the rules in the casual rounds and use those rounds to establish a handicap, it will only hurt you if and when you play competitively.  

 

 

Exactly. I don’t think anyone here cares if someone wants to play by whatever rules they choose to in a casual round.

If you are choosing to play for handicap and or competition then play by the rules otherwise have fun, play what rules you want and don’t hold up the course

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For those that want the rules changed you could always try to find a way on to the committee that works on the rules of golf and help try to change them

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