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Double Penalty for Out of Bounds


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46 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

This was my point exactly!  "It's the way its always been and you'll pry the 4.25 inch cup maker from my cold dead hand"!, and don't forget that  golfs rules were made by people who literally thought they were a better class of human being(not just wealthier) than others.   

 I am also glad that the thoughts of the "forefathers" of the rules regarding the forward pass (1906) in football were quickly discounted as originally an incomplete pass touched by the receiver was a 15 yard penalty, and an incomplete pass not touched by the receiver was a turnover.

And I take nothing personal, but I'm pretty sure I am not the only one who senses a little disdain for those of us willing to openly admit flaunting of the rules, and my belief that making the game more "fun", and changing the rules to allow people to play the game and follow the rules, because you are right most people want to follow the rules and conform and not be rules breakers, and not be ridiculed or looked down upon for not following the rules, may be  a valid reason to consider changing any given rule of the game.  

I am glad you don’t agree with the golf forefathers as it seems to be used by others to justify things like banning armlock.  Armlock is a style of putting that let’s people enjoy the game more so let’s not ban it.   
 

I don’t think anyone is against changing the rules to improve the game and make it more enjoyable.  This specific rule was modified in the last revision to allow players to drop where the ball crossed the OB and add two stroke to the score and keep playing.  
 

just because someone doesn’t like a rule doesn’t mean it can’t be can’t or shouldn’t be changed.  I don’t think there is disdain for you from anyone on here,  we just don’t think the rule is that bad or that it is extremely difficult to write a rule than can be evenly enforced.  Defining a divot is a great example of something that wouldn’t be viewed equally across all players.  I don’t care what rules you choose to follow or not follow and if we are playing competitively as long as we agree on the rules we are going to follow I am good.  

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2 hours ago, cnosil said:

You view it as an inequity.  It is more severe but not unfair.  You typically cite water vs OB;  OB typically marks course boundaries and water is an integral part of the course.  We could also argue that forced carries are unfair since not everyone can hit the ball far enough to carry even with their longest club.  Lost balls should be a one stroke penalty and not stroke and distance.  It is also a bad rule that I get penalized for swinging a practice aid on the course.  I should get a free drop if I am behind a tree and I might hurt myself or break a club.  Lift clean and place should always be in effect because dirt on a ball is unfair.  
The rules aren’t designed to be fair.  Don’t want a stroke and distance penalty then hit the ball better or play a safer shot.  

It is unfair. The exact same swing and the exact same ball flight, with the exact same effective result- the inability to play the ball - results in a different penalty. Whether because the ball is an inch past the course boundary or at the bottom of a pond is irrelevant for purpose of the ability to play the next shot. Illogical and unfair. 

Forced carries are a strategic choice. If a forced carry is designed so you can't play it safe shorter or away, then that is just a badly designed golf hole. If you hit it behind a tree, you can take a back-of-line drop with a one-stroke penalty. That is fair because you hit a bad shot. One penalty for one bad stroke. As for your other attempts at extreme ideas, they all have reasonable merit for discussion. Cleaning a ball is reasonable. Swinging a practice aid could be reasonable. Lost balls have a complexity in the inability to know whether you improved your position.

Rules should be designed to be fair. Saying they are not designed to be fair is an indictment of poor rules.

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2 hours ago, CarlH said:

When you're playing casual golf, do whatever you want.  But if you're playing competitive golf, play by the rules.  What's so difficult about this?  Of course, if you don't play by the rules in the casual rounds and use those rounds to establish a handicap, it will only hurt you if and when you play competitively.  

 

 

As you said, there is no casual, rule-free round if you are keeping your handicap.

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17 minutes ago, LICC said:

It is unfair..

Fair is a personal opinion.  There are many things in life that aren’t fair.   It isn’t fair that A ball bounces off a sprinkler head and goes behind a tree; I shouldn’t be penalized. who decides what is “fair”?

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Change the rules. He should get a mulligan. ITS NOT FAIR!!

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i don't know about anyone else, but I really enjoy the challenge of playing golf.  A big part of that challenge is trying to avoid penalties, making strategic choices to minimize the severity of penalties.  The severe penalty for OB and lost balls is a factor in making those strategic choices.  If someone makes the same choice for club selection and aiming point when there's OB on one side as they do when there's a Penalty Area on that same side, that's a foolish choice.  Those rules force us to consider them when making decisions, and I believe that's a good thing.

As for making the game "easier" or encouraging "success", I think its the very difficulty of achieving success that makes it enjoyable for many of us.  But really, what is "success"?  It it making 70% from 8 feet away, instead of 45%?  What is the "right" number, the right measure of "success"?  I think its fine now, we don't need to make golf into a "participation trophy" type of endeavor.  

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11 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

i don't know about anyone else, but I really enjoy the challenge of playing golf.  A big part of that challenge is trying to avoid penalties, making strategic choices to minimize the severity of penalties.  The severe penalty for OB and lost balls is a factor in making those strategic choices.  If someone makes the same choice for club selection and aiming point when there's OB on one side as they do when there's a Penalty Area on that same side, that's a foolish choice.  Those rules force us to consider them when making decisions, and I believe that's a good thing.

As for making the game "easier" or encouraging "success", I think its the very difficulty of achieving success that makes it enjoyable for many of us.  But really, what is "success"?  It it making 70% from 8 feet away, instead of 45%?  What is the "right" number, the right measure of "success"?  I think its fine now, we don't need to make golf into a "participation trophy" type of endeavor.  

The challenge is what makes the game fun for me. Can it be frustrating? Yep but the chase to get better is what makes me go to the range and play

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12 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The challenge is what makes the game fun for me. Can it be frustrating? Yep but the chase to get better is what makes me go to the range and play

second this. do i get pissed with my OBs? YES! but it shows where i need to improve. 

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9 minutes ago, rbsiedsc said:

second this. do i get pissed with my OBs? YES! but it shows where i need to improve. 

Completely agree. Why shouldn’t we be penalized for hitting the ball where it shouldn’t be? It makes you work harder to hit the ball where it’s supposed to be

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Rules are designed to be equitable, so that everyone is playing by the same standards. That's what makes them fair.  

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An interesting discussion and points made on both sides of the debate.  I do find internal OB's a bit odd at times.  Some I get as a deterrent for players taking shortcuts and possibly causing injury to others or damage to property.  But I've seen some on courses that, at least outwardly, don't warrant such marking. 

As for the recent rule change for OB's, I do think being able to move down the fairway helps both pace and, very likely, further damage to the scorecard.  Am I the only one who has experienced (or witnessed) the dreaded "repeat performance", particularly off the tee, and would have been far better off hitting the subsequent shot with a club that, more often than not, is far more accurate?  A healthy population of courses are in housing developments and they are essentially an OB highway.  It's unnerving for many high handicap players to have to stare down a second attempt from the tee.  While we can argue whether 2 strokes is appropriate, the option is a good change IMO.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, cnosil said:

Fair is a personal opinion.  There are many things in life that aren’t fair.   It isn’t fair that A ball bounces off a sprinkler head and goes behind a tree; I shouldn’t be penalized. who decides what is “fair”?

The results of a shot based on the physical characteristic of a course is part of golf. A ball hit the exact same way in the exact same location in the exact same environment will physically react the same. 

The rules that govern golf are supposed to be logical and fair in their application. You are trying to say that the rules themselves should not be designed to be fair. Rules that are not designed to be fair are deficient rules.

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2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

i don't know about anyone else, but I really enjoy the challenge of playing golf.  A big part of that challenge is trying to avoid penalties, making strategic choices to minimize the severity of penalties.  The severe penalty for OB and lost balls is a factor in making those strategic choices.  If someone makes the same choice for club selection and aiming point when there's OB on one side as they do when there's a Penalty Area on that same side, that's a foolish choice.  Those rules force us to consider them when making decisions, and I believe that's a good thing.

As for making the game "easier" or encouraging "success", I think its the very difficulty of achieving success that makes it enjoyable for many of us.  But really, what is "success"?  It it making 70% from 8 feet away, instead of 45%?  What is the "right" number, the right measure of "success"?  I think its fine now, we don't need to make golf into a "participation trophy" type of endeavor.  

What is foolish is having to make a different choice for the same exact risk and result of your swing.

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2 hours ago, rbsiedsc said:

second this. do i get pissed with my OBs? YES! but it shows where i need to improve. 

So if you hit it into a lateral hazard pond, you wouldn't see where you need to improve, but if you hit the exact same shot OB, you would see it?

2 hours ago, SkilledByDesign said:

Completely agree. Why shouldn’t we be penalized for hitting the ball where it shouldn’t be? It makes you work harder to hit the ball where it’s supposed to be

Should the ball not be at the bottom of a pond?

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55 minutes ago, LICC said:

The results of a shot based on the physical characteristic of a course is part of golf. A ball hit the exact same way in the exact same location in the exact same environment will physically react the same. 

The rules that govern golf are supposed to be logical and fair in their application. You are trying to say that the rules themselves should not be designed to be fair. Rules that are not designed to be fair are deficient rules.

The rules are fairly applied to all golfers;  there are no exceptions to the rules for one golfer vs. another under the defined conditions of play.      

The OB stakes are a physical defined characteristic of a course and they are part of golf.  Every golfer that hits beyond those stakes receives a stroke and distance penalty.   

 

 

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Please excuse me, as I am not as knowledgeable as most of the folks on here as I have not spent copious amounts of time studying the rules of golf. But I have a question to the fairness of the rule. I'm going to post a photo and go from there. Screenshot_20210430-184226.jpg.d395778a637011ccb05226b2278ea303.jpg

Mind you, this is my understanding of the rule so if I'm mistaken, my bad.

Let's say I hit my drive to the black x. My second shot is a toe hooked 3 wood to the red x which is OB. I have the option to hit again from around the original place I hit my shot (black x) with a one stroke penalty meaning I'm hitting my third. Or, I can take a two stroke penalty and hit from the black dot with a two stroke penalty. Now, let's say my third shot after going OB goes to the black dot, isn't my shot from the black dot still my fifth shot?

For this scenario, the black dot is the drop spot for the OB with the two stroke penalty. I'm still hitting my fourth shot from the black dot in both scenarios. 

 

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4 minutes ago, cnosil said:

The rules are fairly applied to all golfers;  there are no exceptions to the rules for one golfer vs. another under the defined conditions of play.      

The OB stakes are a physical defined characteristic of a course and they are part of golf.  Every golfer that hits beyond those stakes receives a stroke and distance penalty.   

 

 

Two golfers play together. One hole had OB right. Another hole has a pond right. On one hole one of them slices it OB. On the other, the other golfer hits the exact same swing to the bottom of the pond. One golfer is penalized double the other. Illogical and unfair rule. 

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14 minutes ago, sirchunksalot said:

Please excuse me, as I am not as knowledgeable as most of the folks on here as I have not spent copious amounts of time studying the rules of golf. But I have a question to the fairness of the rule. I'm going to post a photo and go from there. Screenshot_20210430-184226.jpg.d395778a637011ccb05226b2278ea303.jpg

Mind you, this is my understanding of the rule so if I'm mistaken, my bad.

Let's say I hit my drive to the black x. My second shot is a toe hooked 3 wood to the red x which is OB. I have the option to hit again from around the original place I hit my shot (black x) with a one stroke penalty meaning I'm hitting my third. Or, I can take a two stroke penalty and hit from the black dot with a two stroke penalty. Now, let's say my third shot after going OB goes to the black dot, isn't my shot from the black dot still my fifth shot?

For this scenario, the black dot is the drop spot for the OB with the two stroke penalty. I'm still hitting my fourth shot from the black dot in both scenarios. 

 

You are correct on how the rules work except you are hitting your fourth from the original spot and fifth if you hit from the black circle.  The point of this thread is that the "2" strokes is too penal (penalty stroke and distance).  Essentially the OP wants to make OB a penalty area which would give you the option to drop at your black spot with only a 1 stroke penalty.

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5 minutes ago, LICC said:

Two golfers play together. One hole had OB right. Another hole has a pond right. On one hole one of them slices it OB. On the other, the other golfer hits the exact same swing to the bottom of the pond. One golfer is penalized double the other. Illogical and unfair rule. 

Two different holes  Two different penalties  two different outcomes. 

How about one hole doesn't have a pond on the right and I can play my shot;  The next hole has a pond and the player receives a penalty. exacty same swing and one gets to play and one is in a pond.  One golfer is penalized while the other isn't.    Illogical and unfair.  

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6 minutes ago, sirchunksalot said:

Please excuse me, as I am not as knowledgeable as most of the folks on here as I have not spent copious amounts of time studying the rules of golf. But I have a question to the fairness of the rule. I'm going to post a photo and go from there. Screenshot_20210430-184226.jpg.d395778a637011ccb05226b2278ea303.jpg

Mind you, this is my understanding of the rule so if I'm mistaken, my bad.

Let's say I hit my drive to the black x. My second shot is a toe hooked 3 wood to the red x which is OB. I have the option to hit again from around the original place I hit my shot (black x) with a one stroke penalty meaning I'm hitting my third. Or, I can take a two stroke penalty and hit from the black dot with a two stroke penalty. Now, let's say my third shot after going OB goes to the black dot, isn't my shot from the black dot still my fifth shot?

For this scenario, the black dot is the drop spot for the OB with the two stroke penalty. I'm still hitting my fourth shot from the black dot in both scenarios. 

 

That is not correct. As your second shot went OB, you go back to your prior spot (black x), add a stroke penalty, and now you are hitting your fourth shot. Or if the local rule is in effect, you can go to the nearest spot in the fairway(black dot), take a two stroke penalty and now you are hitting 5 from that spot. 

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