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Double Penalty for Out of Bounds


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45 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

You state " you cannot physically make a golf strike"; so I show you proof that you can hit a submerged ball and then you disagree with video evidence because you didn't like the results of the shot.   

How about highlight number 7 in the video below  Jason Dufner 2016 at Doral or are you going to say he didn't hit it close enough to the hole. 

 

He did not put a golf stroke on the ball. He smacked it 90 degrees left. If this is your best justification for the inconsistent penalty application, then your argument is very weak. 

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16 minutes ago, LICC said:

He did not put a golf stroke on the ball. He smacked it 90 degrees left. If this is your best justification for the inconsistent penalty application, then your argument is very weak. 

The argument has merit because Sergio took a golf swing at a ball fully submerged in water. If he was OB he wouldn’t have been allowed to do so THEREFORE a water hazard and ob are different and are penalized differently!

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17 minutes ago, LICC said:

He did not put a golf stroke on the ball. He smacked it 90 degrees left. If this is your best justification for the inconsistent penalty application, then your argument is very weak. 

Has nothing to do with hitting into a penalty area vs hitting a ball out of bounds.   You keep bringing up water and not being able to hit out of water.  I continue to maintain that hitting out of bounds is different than hitting into a penalty area.  They are different and they can and do have different penalties.  

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20 minutes ago, LICC said:

He did not put a golf stroke on the ball. He smacked it 90 degrees left. If this is your best justification for the inconsistent penalty application, then your argument is very weak. 

In accordance with the Rules of Golf, a stroke is defined as the forward movement of the club to strike the ball.  Therefore, he did make a stroke.  90 degrees left is the result of his stroke.

 

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24 minutes ago, CarlH said:

In accordance with the Rules of Golf, a stroke is defined as the forward movement of the club to strike the ball.  Therefore, he did make a stroke.  90 degrees left is the result of his stroke.

 

As it turns out you can also take a swing at the ball, submerged or on a tee, whiff and it counts as a golf stroke!

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12 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

As it turns out you can also take a swing at the ball, submerged or on a tee, whiff and it counts as a golf stroke!

Yes, per the definitions of the rule book.

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@LICC, so why not publish your own rule book? You clearly disagree with the one used by the current ruling bodies. Publish it, promote it, and suggest that people play using it. You could even create a website where people playing LICCGolf could post scores for reference.

I officiate ice hockey, and many leagues have their own customized rules ....

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10 hours ago, goaliedad30 said:

@LICC, so why not publish your own rule book? You clearly disagree with the one used by the current ruling bodies. Publish it, promote it, and suggest that people play using it. You could even create a website where people playing LICCGolf could post scores for reference.

I officiate ice hockey, and many leagues have their own customized rules ....

because then in order to complain he’d have to admit he was wrong. 

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LICC  I would point out what I stated earlier in this thread, and point to a few of the comments just before this one.  Anyone who suggests that the rules for equipment, course standards,  hole size or rules of play or anything with the game of golf,  can be made "better", to be "adjusted", to be "altered"  for "recreational golf" perhaps for the simplest of reasons, to make it more FUN, and "easier"  and perhaps more "fair", is met with "make your own rule book"  

I agree with you completely on the OB rule.

Arguments like "its hard that's why we like it",  .."its not the same you CAN technically hit a ball at the bottom of 10 feet of water", and "make your own rule book", kind of sounds like the dismissive, somewhat condescending attitude toward those of us who merely suggest that perhaps the rulebook, and the game is perhaps not perfect as it is.

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

LICC  I would point out what I stated earlier in this thread, and point to a few of the comments just before this one.  Anyone who suggests that the rules for equipment, course standards,  hole size or rules of play or anything with the game of golf,  can be made "better", to be "adjusted", to be "altered"  for "recreational golf" perhaps for the simplest of reasons, to make it more FUN, and "easier"  and perhaps more "fair", is met with "make your own rule book"  

I agree with you completely on the OB rule.

Arguments like "its hard that's why we like it",  .."its not the same you CAN technically hit a ball at the bottom of 10 feet of water", and "make your own rule book", kind of sounds like the dismissive, somewhat condescending attitude toward those of us who merely suggest that perhaps the rulebook, and the game is perhaps not perfect as it is.

 

 

 

I guess my main point that I would want to bring up is: Do you feel you should be punished more for hitting a ball out of the bounds of the course compared to hitting within the design of the course, but to a place where it cannot be played?

Personally I feel that it is fair to be punished more, and it seems like the majority agree with that.

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If I owned property adjacent to a course I'd feel better about the dents in my siding if the perpetrator was penalized stroke & distance rather than just stroke.  The severe penalty may also discourage somebody from trying to cut the corner over my property that happens to be near the turn of a dogleg.

But I also realize that 98% of those playing aren't playing by the rules and are probably dropping where they think they crossed the OB line (probably closer to the hole than they should) and therefore aren't encouraged to stay away from my property line.  So I will continue to not live adjacent to a course so I don't have to wear a hard hat while cutting the grass!     🧑‍🏭

Unfair vs fair has been kicked around for 6 pages...I think if you know the rule / penalty before you hit the shot then it isn't unfair.  You assessed the risk / reward standing behind the ball with the club in your hand and reap the results of the shot.  IMO it's only unfair if the rule is changed after you hit your shot.  

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30 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

Unfair vs fair has been kicked around for 6 pages...I think if you know the rule / penalty before you hit the shot then it isn't unfair.  You assessed the risk / reward standing behind the ball with the club in your hand and reap the results of the shot.  IMO it's only unfair if the rule is changed after you hit your shot.

The fair vs unfair argument is pointless. As you said it is only unfair if it is changed after you hit your shot or are playing by different rules than whoever you are competing with. 
 

I say this again but if you are only playing for fun, play however you want by whatever rules you want within the confines of respecting the course and other golfers. If playing for a handicap, play by the rules for that handicap system and if playing tournament golf, play by the rules adopted by the tournament.  Remember you chose to play for THIER handicap or in THIER tournament. 
Life is too short to be negative and complaining all the time. So enjoy whatever time you have left. 

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Posted (edited)

I look at all of these rule discussions(and respect the traditionalist), and other aspects about golf and what I hope, is that all  the "tradition" of golf is enough to keep presently 20, and 30, and 40 year old people out there interested enough to stick with it.  I believe that fun, fair, and easy are going to be critical to get and keep enough young people involved to replace all the baby boomers(those presently around   62-75 years old) who are currently playing a VAST MAJORITY of rounds of golf played in a year.  Because in 2020 with all the people who played golf for the first time, and played a round on a course, and didn't just go to Top Golf or a driving range 169 courses, mostly sub $40 public courses closed.  I think making the game easier, more logical, and yes even just more FUN is going to be very important in the long run. 

 

Edited by stuka44
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2 hours ago, stuka44 said:

LICC  I would point out what I stated earlier in this thread, and point to a few of the comments just before this one.  Anyone who suggests that the rules for equipment, course standards,  hole size or rules of play or anything with the game of golf,  can be made "better", to be "adjusted", to be "altered"  for "recreational golf" perhaps for the simplest of reasons, to make it more FUN, and "easier"  and perhaps more "fair", is met with "make your own rule book"  

I agree with you completely on the OB rule.

Arguments like "its hard that's why we like it",  .."its not the same you CAN technically hit a ball at the bottom of 10 feet of water", and "make your own rule book", kind of sounds like the dismissive, somewhat condescending attitude toward those of us who merely suggest that perhaps the rulebook, and the game is perhaps not perfect as it is.

 

 

 

Who said anything about 10' of water?

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When it comes to rules, any rule of any sport, "fair" boils down to fair to everyone playing.  In order for a rule to be fair, it must be applied equally to everyone, so as not to give any one player an advantage or disadvantage.  In the case of an OB, stroke and distance is fair because not every ball that goes OB goes into someone's lawn.  OB can be along a wooded area, an open field, or the side of a mountain.  Sometimes you can find the ball, often you cannot.  If you were allowed to drop the ball where you "think" it went in, you would be probably giving yourself an unfair advantage over the field.  By making it stroke and distance for OB and/or lost ball, the rule is applied equally to everyone, no exceptions.  Therefore, it is a fair rule.   Unless you can devise a rule that applies to every case and situation, then you have no valid argument.

This is my opinion of the rule.  You may or may not agree.  It doesn't matter one way or the other.  Competitive golf requires stroke and distance and, until that rule changes by the governing body, that's the rule we follow.

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18 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

I look at all of these rule discussions(and respect the traditionalist), and other aspects about golf and what I hope, is that all  the "tradition" of golf is enough to keep presently 20, and 30, and 40 year old people out there interested enough to stick with it.  I believe that fun, fair, and easy are going to be critical to get and keep enough young people involved to replace all the baby boomers(those presently around   62-75 years old) who are currently playing a VAST MAJORITY of rounds of golf played in a year.  Because in 2020 with all the people who played golf for the first time, and played a round on a course, and didn't just go to Top Golf or a driving range 169 courses, mostly sub $40 public courses closed.  I think making the game easier, more logical, and yes even just more FUN is going to be very important in the long run. 

The people who played for fun last year for the first time are going to keep playing for fun this year and every year they play. They may end up enjoying the game and the challenge and decide to play by rules later on and to get a handicap. When I started playing years ago it was another activity I did and wasn’t serious. I played by the rules because the large group I played with had competitions within the group. Not once did  I think that the rules were stuffy or too traditional. They were the rules and I had to play by them. Just like in every organized sport I ever played from high school into adult hood. 
 

The arguments being made in here about the rules aren’t based on “tradition” and “that’s because it’s always been that way” 

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48 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

Because in 2020 with all the people who played golf for the first time, and played a round on a course, and didn't just go to Top Golf or a driving range 169 courses, mostly sub $40 public courses closed.  I think making the game easier, more logical, and yes even just more FUN is going to be very important in the long run. 

 

What makes the current crop of new players to the game any different from past "new" players that came to the game?  The baby boomers that you refer to (yes, us old guys now) weren't always old yanno.  Many started playing the game in their 20's, 30's, and 40's just as the ones you're worried about staying interested in the game.  I don't understand why the new generation of players is any different than past generations.

 

edit:  at least the new generations didn't have to learn on persimmon woods, balata balls, and unforgiving irons 😄 😄  

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1 hour ago, CarlH said:

What makes the current crop of new players to the game any different from past "new" players that came to the game?  The baby boomers that you refer to (yes, us old guys now) weren't always old yanno.  Many started playing the game in their 20's, 30's, and 40's just as the ones you're worried about staying interested in the game.  I don't understand why the new generation of players is any different than past generations.

 

edit:  at least the new generations didn't have to learn on persimmon woods, balata balls, and unforgiving irons 😄 😄  

CarlH I hope you are right. We (I'm 55) were raised on the outdoors, and riding bikes over to other kids houses, and playing baseball, basketball, and football depending on what the sports season was, in someone's back yard or local lot.  We kept score and were told YOU LOST, at 8, 9, and 10 years old.  The generation to replace all those rounds of golf, are being raised on instant gratification, everything should be given to you, and everyone gets a trophy.  I guess I just don't have the same faith that you do that they will spend, the long hours to learn the game to a point they want to continue playing, pay the expensive greens fees, as more low cost public courses close, and are going to be willing to take 4.5 hours out of one of their days off.  

The industry has had seven straight years with more than 2 million beginners. By comparison, there were 1.5 million beginners in 2011. The key for future growth, however, is retention.

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4 hours ago, stuka44 said:

We kept score and were told YOU LOST, at 8, 9, and 10 years old.  The generation to replace all those rounds of golf, are being raised on instant gratification, everything should be given to you, and everyone gets a trophy. 

This is true.  This is definitely the instant gratification generation.  I don't think any of them know what it means to work hard and struggle through adversity.

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7 hours ago, stuka44 said:

I look at all of these rule discussions(and respect the traditionalist), and other aspects about golf and what I hope, is that all  the "tradition" of golf is enough to keep presently 20, and 30, and 40 year old people out there interested enough to stick with it.  I believe that fun, fair, and easy are going to be critical to get and keep enough young people involved to replace all the baby boomers(those presently around   62-75 years old) who are currently playing a VAST MAJORITY of rounds of golf played in a year.  Because in 2020 with all the people who played golf for the first time, and played a round on a course, and didn't just go to Top Golf or a driving range 169 courses, mostly sub $40 public courses closed.  I think making the game easier, more logical, and yes even just more FUN is going to be very important in the long run. 

 

It is funny that you bring up "tradition"  Most of the people responding to this thread and the others started by the OP are probably in favor of doing things to advance the game and improve the rules if necessary.    Most of the people on this site are pro armlock putting; however, the OP believe that we need to respect the traditional way and that it isn't a proper swing.   We have stated that hitting the ball far is good and that equipment shouldn't be rolled back to a prior era; but the OP wants courses to be played like they were in the past.     

Sure,  lets make the game better, and the ruling committees have for shots that go OB. With a local rule you can drop in the fairway, add 2 strokes, and play on.   Golf has penalties that are 1 stroke or 2 strokes;  OB happens to be 2 strokes because it is functionally different that a penalty area.    I am all for local courses doing things to get people involved in the game;  shorter courses for faster rounds,  discounts for students,  bigger holes to make the game easier; or even have people make up their own rules as long as the keep up a pace of play.   I am even fine with competitions with those unofficial rules.  

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