Fitting questions for short player / high handicap

[djodars]

Hey golf aficionados!

I've searched the ends of the earth and found so much conflicting information that I'm making this thread in hopes of having a clear path of what I should do next to improve my golf game.

A little background:
I woke up one morning 3 years ago and decided to pick up golfing with my SO.
I walked into a Golf Town and bought a set of Cobra King F7 clubs that was on the floor (bag, driver, 3-wood, hybrid and 5-PW) in senior flex.
I then basically self-taught myself with various YouTube videos (cue laugh track).

Specifics about my game:
Couldn't hit driver last year and felt like it cost me a lot of shots. Since made a lot of progress at the range and hit it straight or slight slice ~220-230yds carry.
Can't hit 3-wood on the fairway but OK on tee. ~190-200yds
Hybrid is probably my best club. Always straight or slight draw, 170-180yds.
5-6 irons are impossible to hit for me, lots of chunks/mishits.
7 through PW and 50-54-58 are pretty good. 130-120-110-100-70-60-50yds approx. and mostly straight.
Putting stroke is good, distance control is meh.

Now... I've played a round with a retired golf instructor some months ago and he said that if my shafts were regulars instead I would be more consistent with my shots. This stayed stuck in the back of my mind.

Furthermore, I'm a short guy (5' 5" with 32" wrist-to-floor without shoes). Wherever I look, everything points to my clubs being ~0.5" too long and needing to be 1 or 2 degrees flat.

Currently, I'm about a 30HDCP when following the rules of golf to the letter.

Would a fitting be worth it at this point or should I suck it up, get lessons and keep playing with those clubs while having the thought that they're not fit for me in the back of my mind?

Budget is not an issue.

Thanks for your help!

[aerospace_ray]

So I am in the camp that advocates quality fitting for a golfer. Why? There are so many options and types of club heads, shafts and even grips (think putter but other clubs as well/sized properly) that may provide efficiency and purpose (I believe each club should have a purpose for the golfer such as proper distance gaps between clubs). Note there are many that do not think fitting is necessary and maybe one should focus on improving game through lessons and experience playing on course as the priority before ever considering a fitting. Not going to argue that just I prefer a proper fitted tool/club that I can use. Especially regarding proper length and lie angles for my irons/wedges along with loft/distance gaps.

I strongly encourage a series of lessons with a instructor you can be comfortable with and to develop a plan(practice regimen)  to achieve your desired level of play. Sure there will be many additional posts here that provide quality feedback. Lots of experience/knowledge from MGS forum community.  Good luck on your journey to lower scores.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, djodars said:

Now... I've played a round with a retired golf instructor some months ago and he said that if my shafts were regulars instead I would be more consistent with my shots. This stayed stuck in the back of my mind.

Furthermore, I'm a short guy (5' 5" with 32" wrist-to-floor without shoes). Wherever I look, everything points to my clubs being ~0.5" too long and needing to be 1 or 2 degrees flat.

There’s no industry standard in flex or lie angle and same with loft as different style blinds have different lifts.

height and wrist to floor measurements are static measurements and the number of fitters that use them is almost non existent. @Golfspy_CG2 is 6’7” and static measurements would put him in 1” extra but in a fitting with titleist they put him in their standard length and even considered going 1/4” short

so for the most part ignore the flex and static measurements when it comes to clubs.

1 hour ago, djodars said:

Would a fitting be worth it at this point or should I suck it up, get lessons and keep playing with those clubs while having the thought that they're not fit for me in the back of my mind?

Both would be good places to start and even better to combine them. Which one to do first is a chicken and egg but I would lean fitting first to remove the chance of engraining swing flaws to make a club work for you over having a club work with you.

The chances that your fitted specs like length and flex change drastically with lessons isn’t that high. Potentially lie might change but that’s an easy fix for club repair shops 

[cnosil]

This kinda gets into a chicken or egg type thing. First I would assess how much I plan on being engaged in the game and what my goals were. Do you want to just hang out and play golf for the exercise and try to get better? Do you want to play competitively?

Unfortunately golf is full of contradictions and lack of standards. There are Players never take lessons or get fit and play scratch golf. Others take lots of lessons and get fit on a recurring basis and remain a high handicapper.

As for what to do, Some will say take lessons because it will change your swing to a point that the equipment won’t be right. Others will say get fit because it will help you improve faster and that poorly fit equipment hinders progress.

Based on your description of your game, I’d probably start with lessons to learn some proper mechanics. During those lessons ask the instructor about the equipment that you have and if he thinks new/altered equipment would be beneficial. Harder now due to the pandemic but try and hit different clubs with different shafts and see if you hit the ball any better. Your height will potentially be a challenge since you many need clubs that aren’t standard specs. If you can find someone semi competent in fitting, I’d try that and see what the recommend; maybe you can adjust the length and lie if your clubs to help with the club delivery. At this point I wouldn’t utilize a high end fitter.

[dlow206]

I'm going to address this, because I am essentially you (high handicapper, same height). I'm 5'5" on a good day, but with an even more extreme wrist to floor of 30.5". With standard length, lie clubs, i just don't feel comfortable standing over the ball at setup. If i hold my hands at a reasonable/normal height at setup, a standard length/lie would have the toe way up for example.

My opinion is, if you don't fall under the meat of the bell curve based on height, wrist to floor, etc., then it makes golf harder to not have the right size fitting tools (clubs). I would recommend getting fit for length and lie, and lie can be adjusted as you improve your swing. 

[Tom the Golf Nut]

I am in agreement with the majority here. Get with someone for some lessons to get your swing optimized. Then have them look at your clubs for length and lie. The equipment you purchased should serve you well. You just might need a length modification and or lie adjustment to make these work for you. 

[dlow206]

I have opinions on this that you all might not agree with. My belief that a taller than average player (with an expected proportionate WTF) has a better chance at physically adapting sufficiently than a shorter than average player (again with an expected proportionate WTF). The taller than average player can bend down more, the shorter player can't really make them self taller at address besides standing more upright. And for that shorter player to return the club at impact without the toe way up in the air, the player has to raise the handle quite a bit at impact, which is not necessarily a good thing.

According to Hireko, the average proportion of WTF to Height is 48.9". Given my height of 65", my wrist to floor should be around 31.8". However, my WTF is 30.5", which would be an average proportionate WTF for someone who is 5'2". Now, I don't think anyone would recommend that a female or a kid that is 5'2" use Men's standard clubs as a starting point so why give a man who has those proportions mens standard clubs as a starting point.

Again, my opinion is if anywhere within the meat of the bell curve, mens standard is a fine starting point. If you are way under, then your clubs will likely need adjustment to be better fit. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

According to Hireko, the average proportion of WTF to Height is 48.9". Given my height of 65", my wrist to floor should be around 31.8". However, my WTF is 30.5", which would be an average proportionate WTF for someone who is 5'2". Now, I don't think anyone would recommend that a female or a kid that is 5'2" use Men's standard clubs as a starting point so why give a man who has those proportions mens standard clubs as a starting point.

This is why many of us push for dynamic fittings and using equipment that matches your swing and not have to manipulate the swing. There’s no one size fits all.

 

[Middler]

The irony. 

Many here seem to recommend fittings to anyone and everyone, a lazy oversell in my view. If you’re an 8 HI looking to get closer to scratch, by all means a fitting will probably help. While anyone can benefit, the improvement may be relatively trivial, and certainly not always a good value if you buy all new clubs plus $100-$350 for the fitting itself. I’m one who does NOT believe fittings are some magical cure all that will benefit almost everyone. And finding a great fitter is no slam dunk, you can get really bad advice from Club Champion, though their track record is good overall - but it’ll cost you WAY more than off the rack clubs.

I believe a mid to higher handicapper is better off starting with lessons from a qualifes pro first, a decent pro will be able to tell you if a fitting is worth your time and money.

That said, a very tall or very short player is more likely to benefit from a fitting than a more “average” sized player.

[RickyBobby_PR]

39 minutes ago, Middler said:

The irony. 

Many here seem to recommend fittings to anyone and everyone, a lazy oversell in my view. If you’re an 8 HI looking to get closer to scratch, by all means a fitting will probably help. While anyone can benefit, the improvement may be relatively trivial, and certainly not always a good value if you buy all new clubs plus $100-$350 for the fitting itself. I’m one who does NOT believe fittings are some magical cure all that will benefit almost everyone. And finding a great fitter is no slam dunk, you can get really bad advice from Club Champion, though their track record is good overall - but it’ll cost you WAY more than off the rack clubs.

I believe a mid to higher handicapper is better off starting with lessons from a qualifes pro first, a decent pro will be able to tell you if a fitting is worth your time and money.

That said, a very tall or very short player is more likely to benefit from a fitting than a more “average” sized player.

I don’t recall anyone here saying that a fitting is going to make anyone score better or drop their handicap. Some may not see any noticeable difference in their score because one still has to execute the shot at hand and there’s a lot of variables in golf. The best in the world whom have equipment dialed into their swings still make bad swings and have a big penalizing miss when they do. You will see that on display today.

What a fitting does do is out equipment in the hands of the golfer to reduce the amount impact a miss does have and reduces or eliminates the need to manipulate their swing to get an intended result.

 

[RollingGreens]

You may get fit for a set that works for you now and allows your game to grow and improve with the proper direction. Hopefully they will also be clubs that you can grow into but their is always risk that you improve rapidly when given the correct tools and may need different sticks to meet your game. That wouldn’t be the worst thing though 

[THEZIPR23]

What are your short term goals? What are your long term goals? 

Answers to those questions will direct you to which would be better. If your long term goal is to become the best golfer you can be, start with lessons. If you are just playing for fun go get fit. Either way enjoy the ride. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

A fitting not only aids in helping to not manipulate the club but optimizes ball flight characteristics.

someone who hits a good shot and the ball rolls out too far on the green may not have the right launch, spin or descent angle. Getting fit into a combo of shaft, head, loft, etc, that improved that gives that golfer a better chance of having a shorter putt.

Someone whose ball drops out of the sky or hits a lot of knuckle ball drives has the wrong ball flight characteristics. They get fit into a combo that fits their swing they end up with better drives and less errors gives them a better chance to improve their score.

[Middler]

5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I don’t recall anyone here saying that a fitting is going to make anyone score better or drop their handicap. Some may not see any noticeable difference in their score because one still has to execute the shot at hand and there’s a lot of variables in golf. The best in the world whom have equipment dialed into their swings still make bad swings and have a big penalizing miss when they do. You will see that on display today.

IWhat a fitting does do is out equipment in the hands of the golfer to reduce the amount impact a miss does have and reduces or eliminates the need to manipulate their swing to get an intended result.

We’re doomed to argue in circles but how does that not impact scoring? What else could it suggest if not improved scoring? That’s one way those who suggest fittings for 90%+ suggest scores will improve.

I’ve yet to see anyone post asking if they should get fit without implying or outright expecting to improve their scores. To which many here immediately suggest a fitting.

And it’s right in Club Champions logo-tag line. They also quote stats about increasing distance, reducing dispersion, reducing strokes putting - all would be expected to lower scores. They also say their customers reduce their scores by as much as 6 strokes on average, that’s not intended to create an expectation?

 

 

[djodars]

I really appreciate everyone's response, wasn't expecting such a turnout but it seems to be a touchy subject!

To be fair, I am not expecting a fitting to lower my score instantly but more to make sure the only thing I have to worry about is my technique and not my equipment. If it instantly helps in ways of better contact and less dispersion that's just an added bonus.

Eventually, my goal isn't to play competitively but at least to score in the 80s.

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Middler said:

We’re doomed to argue in circles but how does that not impact scoring? What else could it suggest if not improved scoring? That’s one way those who suggest fittings for 90%+ suggest scores will improve.

I’ve yet to see anyone post asking if they should get fit without implying or outright expecting to improve their scores. To which many here immediately suggest a fitting.

And it’s right in Club Champions logo-tag line. They also quote stats about increasing distance, reducing dispersion, reducing strokes putting - all would be expected to lower scores. They also say their customers reduce their scores by as much as 6 strokes on average, that’s not intended to create an expectation?

 

Yes,  people expect to improve with a fitting, people expect to improve when they but new equipment, and people expect to improve when they take lessons.  None of those are guarantees to get better.  How often to people go to lessons to learn how to perform better but abandon those changes and quit lessons once they get to the course and struggle.    I am a year into lessons and practice on my short game  I think it has improved but my scores really haven't;  should I switch away and try something different?   I hit lots of different clubs during most wanted testing and believe that optimized equipment may not perform well for someone and grossly misfit equipment can perform reasonably well.  

The biggest questions is how do you measure improvement?  One  score,  one fairway,  1 yard or is it scoring ceiling and floor, dispersion patterns, and 20 yards.   Everyone has a different measuring stick and everyone's experiences and biases are different. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, Middler said:

We’re doomed to argue in circles but how does that not impact scoring? What else could it suggest if not improved scoring? That’s one way those who suggest fittings for 90%+ suggest scores will improve.

I’ve yet to see anyone post asking if they should get fit without implying or outright expecting to improve their scores. To which many here immediately suggest a fitting.

@cnosil captured it pretty well.

 

[Middler]

12 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

@cnosil captured it pretty well.

 

We disagree somewhat, that’s allowed.

[cnosil]

We disagree somewhat, that’s allowed.

Of course it is allowed. I understand your perspective and would probably have the same thoughts as you if I were in your shoes.

[Kanoito]

As you mentioned in your original post, if budget is not an issue,go for the fitting.

I can't picture myself taking lessons with a set of clubs that are too long or too short.

Ideally, the pro that will provide the lessons can also do the fitting, making both aspects flow flawlessly into each other.

[Pandaman]

My thought is go see a local club pro.  Ask about checking length and lie (especially as you say you are on the shorter side), as that could be one reason you struggle with irons, he/she should be able to adjust that without it costing too much (you may need new grips as part of the process, but that's not especially costly).  And get a lesson or two and see how it goes.

You can then take it from there.  Invest in newer clubs if you want, but I would suggest waiting a little while.

I'm a high handicap. I got fitted into King F7s throughout the bag (apart from LW) a few years ago and am very happy with them.