Arm Lock Putting Should Be Illegal

[MissionMan]

On 7/3/2024 at 8:19 AM, Cuzy51 said:

I hate it

I believe everyone should have to putt exactly the same, flat front putter grip and two hands on the grip, if you are struggling with that, then see a PGA Professional for help

I had the same thing in the bowling world with these two handers, don’t read me wrong, those people are very talented, but again it should be uniform

maybe I am old school but it should be the same for all

I’m guessing you use a flat fronted putter with two handed grip. 

By the same definition, I could argue that hybrids should be banned because it’s for people who can’t hit long irons and they should just see a pga professional if they can’t do that. 

Actually, maybe we should all play blades because forgiving clubs are for people struggling with hitting the centre and they should just see the PGA professional for help.

Maybe I’m old school but it should be the same for all.

Edited July 13 by MissionMan

[DaveP043]

On 7/11/2024 at 3:11 PM, Cuzy51 said:

Maybe I am old school, but it should be exactly the same way for everyone, sure going out with your buds, I don’t really care if you putt between your legs, but in competition or say outings, all should be the same 

It is the same for everyone, the same restrictions apply to each and every one of us.  You could write rules that outlaw cross-handed putting, or cross-handed full swings, that would make things "the same" for everyone.  You cold even require players to swing right-handed, that would make us all "the same".  You can mandate that all clubs be identical, "the same" for everyone.  

4 hours ago, ryan.mzzz said:

i agree with @DaveP043 that the fact that the butt of the club moves during an armlock stroke makes the difference, but then I don’t understand why the rule isn’t written to reflect that idea. 

I think the rule does reflect that.  You're not allowed to anchor the club to your body, either directly or indirectly.  You ARE allowed to anchor against your arm or hand.  Rules are there to tell you what you are allowed to do, and not allowed to do, they don't need to tell you why the line is drawn where it is.  The USGA issued this guidance when the anchoring ban was first put in place, to help explain the concerns about creating a stable and immoveable anchor point.:

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/rules/Guidance-for-Players-and-Officials-USGA-FINAL.pdf

[NM01]

On 7/11/2024 at 3:49 PM, Cuzy51 said:

We are talking putting

I really don’t care if it is a 24 in putter or 60 in 

I am saying a flat front putter grip which requires only your two hands on the grip

as far as irons to each there own 

Again there’s nothing in putting that’s the same for everyone. Pop strokes, short follow through, same lengjt backswing and follow through. length differs, loft and lie differs. The rules apply to everyone so in that case it is the same for everyone. How one decides to play under those rules is up to them.
 

But yeah let’s take the game back to the good old days. The whole get off my lawn and gatekeeping is old and tired 

[Cuzy51]

4 hours ago, MissionMan said:

I’m guessing you use a flat fronted putter with two handed grip. 

By the same definition, I could argue that hybrids should be banned because it’s for people who can’t hit long irons and they should just see a pga professional if they can’t do that. 

Actually, maybe we should all play blades because forgiving clubs are for people struggling with hitting the centre and they should just see the PGA professional for help.

Maybe I’m old school but it should be the same for all.

I thought we were talking about putting, just saying 

[GolfSpy_APH]

Probably answers this before but don't care - if it was that beneficial for all then everyone would be doing it. It works for some, not for others.

That brings variety and complexity to the game and allows alternative methods for those not comfortable and aid in them enjoying the game more. Which is what I like to see.

[chisag]

12 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Probably answers this before but don't care - if it was that beneficial for all then everyone would be doing it. It works for some, not for others.

That brings variety and complexity to the game and allows alternative methods for those not comfortable and aid in them enjoying the game more. Which is what I like to see.

 

... I have always thought at the highest level when nerves play a big roll, any anchoring is beneficial only to those with the yips. That said, not only isn't it beneficial for all, I think it is much more difficult than conventional putting because you have to make compensations. Both my arms just hang naturally and it is easy to use a pure pendulum stroke with both arms and hands doing the same thing. Anchoring against my arm takes all the feel and natural arm hang out of the stroke and makes it much more mechanical and both arms and hands are doing different things. I tip my cap to those that can make it work. 

... And I could not agree more with your statement for Am's "That brings variety and complexity to the game and allows alternative methods for those not comfortable and aid in them enjoying the game more." 

[MissionMan]

3 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Probably answers this before but don't care - if it was that beneficial for all then everyone would be doing it. It works for some, not for others.

That brings variety and complexity to the game and allows alternative methods for those not comfortable and aid in them enjoying the game more. Which is what I like to see.

100% correct. 

[MissionMan]

3 hours ago, Cuzy51 said:

I thought we were talking about putting, just saying 

Yes, but you’re talking about selectively applying rules to one area of the game and not others. You’re saying someone should learn to be a better golfer and not rely on the tools to help them with pretty much applies to every element of the modern golf game. Low spin drivers for those who get too much spin. High spin ball’s for golfers who get too little spin. Draw bias drivers for those who slice. A variety of balls to cater for almost every shot shape. Alignment ball’s. Rangefinders for those who can’t judge distance. Green books for those who can’t read greens. Different wedge bounces to cater for a variety of shot styles. Golf shafts for older players to hit further. The list goes on. There isn’t an area the golf game that hasn’t been impacted by this in some form. 

Edited July 13 by MissionMan

[Cuzy51]

52 minutes ago, MissionMan said:

Yes, but you’re talking about selectively applying rules to one area of the game and not others. You’re saying someone should learn to be a better golfer and not rely on the tools to help them with pretty much applies to every element of the modern golf game. Low spin drivers for those who get too much spin. High spin ball’s for golfers who get too little spin. Draw bias drivers for those who slice. A variety of balls to cater for almost every shot shape. Alignment ball’s. Rangefinders for those who can’t judge distance. Green books for those who can’t read greens. Different wedge bounces to cater for a variety of shot styles. Golf shafts for older players to hit further. The list goes on. There isn’t an area the golf game that hasn’t been impacted by this in some form. 

Again, I thought this discussion was about putting and arm lock, I stand by my belief’s on both hands on the putter grip with no assistance from any other body part. All the other stuff you guys are having a hemorrhage with is another topic, plain and simple. I have been playing golf probably longer than you are old, I have no issues with technology, sure has helped my game as I have got older, but I still have both of my hands on the flat front putter grip with both hands on it and I putt just fine

[MissionMan]

1 minute ago, Cuzy51 said:

Again, I thought this discussion was about putting and arm lock, I stand by my belief’s on both hands on the putter grip with no assistance from any other body part. All the other stuff you guys are having a hemorrhage with is another topic, plain and simple. I have been playing golf probably longer than you are old, I have no issues with technology, sure has helped my game as I have got older, but I still have both of my hands on the flat front putter grip with both hands on it and I putt just fine

Most things in life work based on comparative discussions including legal precedents. Using “I am okay with this, therefore everyone else should suffer, go speak to a PGA pro because you’re doing it wrong” isn’t really a realistic framework to base something on. You don’t think Lucas Glover and other pros who shifted to arm locks or broomsticks have access to the best professionals in the world to help them?

As people have mentioned, if it was that much of an advantage, every professional would be using it. They aren’t. It isn’t. It’s about personal preference and you’re trying to make everyone align to yours.

[NM01]

22 minutes ago, Cuzy51 said:

Again, I thought this discussion was about putting and arm lock, I stand by my belief’s on both hands on the putter grip with no assistance from any other body part. All the other stuff you guys are having a hemorrhage with is another topic, plain and simple. I have been playing golf probably longer than you are old, I have no issues with technology, sure has helped my game as I have got older, but I still have both of my hands on the flat front putter grip with both hands on it and I putt just fine

You can’t call out a specific past of the game as you are trying. You can’t say that everyone should use an overlap grip on full swings for whatever reason. Or that 58° and higher lofted wedges shouldn’t be band because weren’t in use during some period of golf. 
 

This type of thinking is bad for the game. It’s telling people they can’t find a way within the rules of the game to enjoy it. It’s gatekeeping the game and saying if you can’t play good they way I deem it should be played then you either adapt or get out. 

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Cuzy51 said:

Again, I thought this discussion was about putting and arm lock, I stand by my belief’s on both hands on the putter grip with no assistance from any other body part. All the other stuff you guys are having a hemorrhage with is another topic, plain and simple. I have been playing golf probably longer than you are old, I have no issues with technology, sure has helped my game as I have got older, but I still have both of my hands on the flat front putter grip with both hands on it and I putt just fine

I'll ask you again,  other  than personal preference,  why does it matter what other people do?   Why does the grip have to have a flat front instead of being round,  what does the flat part have to be the front,  why can't I putt with one hand instead of 2, why not limit the head shape, what advantage do you perceive a player using armlock getting?   I'd think you would relish the opportunity to beat someone that putts in a way that you consider cheating.  

[GolferXY]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

This type of thinking is bad for the game. It’s telling people they can’t find a way within the rules of the game to enjoy it. It’s gatekeeping the game and saying if you can’t play good they way I deem it should be played then you either adapt or get out. 

Or change the rules.  I think that's what this discussion thread is about.  If you don't like the discussion, you should adapt or not post.  Just kidding.  I like your posts, they amuse me.  And your opinion may be correct.  Or not. That's why people have discussions.  You appear to be doing a bit of gatekeeping of this discussion with your last sentence.  But isn't that what opinion threads are about?  To state your opinion and hear other's opinions whether agreeing or disagreeing.

We don't make the rules of golf, and I play them as written, like them or not.  But I'm a competitive golfer.  Not all golfers are competitive golfers, right?  They go out to swing a club and have some fun.  I don't like music on the course, but as long as people are courteous I just play my game and let them play theirs.  Too many exceptions to list, really.   Golf has rules to level the playing field for everyone; to eliminate competitive advantage that make it unfair for other competitors.  I don't see how arm lock putting is an unfair advantage. Personally that doesn't seem to give anyone an unfair advantage as some use it and are still out-putted by those that don't, but if the USGA and R and A ban it, so be it.  They put a lot of thought and I'm sure discussion into each and every rule.  If they use discussion threads as a barometer of general public opinion, then these threads may be in some small way responsible for considering change.  Ultimately we, as the general public, have little say in the rules so we post our opinions and play the way we want.  And we seek out the opinions of others, talk about them, and use it as a way to engender a feeling of community amongst people who love the game.  Write on, play on, and keep thinking the way you want because whether a thought is right or wrong, it is still invaluable to golfers and is not bad for the game.  

[Josh Parker]

2 hours ago, Cuzy51 said:

Again, I thought this discussion was about putting and arm lock, I stand by my belief’s on both hands on the putter grip with no assistance from any other body part. All the other stuff you guys are having a hemorrhage with is another topic, plain and simple. I have been playing golf probably longer than you are old, I have no issues with technology, sure has helped my game as I have got older, but I still have both of my hands on the flat front putter grip with both hands on it and I putt just fine

Question.... I see you were/are a bowler.  Should bowlers who bowl with no finger holes be banned?  Should two handed bowlers be allowed?  You have several pros that do it.  

I am not sure I understand the logic. 

[GolferXY]

2 hours ago, Cuzy51 said:

All the other stuff you guys are having a hemorrhage with is another topic, plain and simple.

These discussions always tend to stray from the topic.  That's part of the fun.  But it would make for another good topic all on its own.

[GolferXY]

5 minutes ago, Josh Parker said:

Should bowlers who bowl with no finger holes be banned?

Was he a hat?  Just kidding!  

[NM01]

9 minutes ago, GolferXY said:

Or change the rules.  I think that's what this discussion thread is about.  If you don't like the discussion, you should adapt or not post.  Just kidding.  I like your posts, they amuse me.  And your opinion may be correct.  Or not. That's why people have discussions.  You appear to be doing a bit of gatekeeping of this discussion with your last sentence.  But isn't that what opinion threads are about?  To state your opinion and hear other's opinions whether agreeing or disagreeing.

We don't make the rules of golf, and I play them as written, like them or not.  But I'm a competitive golfer.  Not all golfers are competitive golfers, right?  They go out to swing a club and have some fun.  I don't like music on the course, but as long as people are courteous I just play my game and let them play theirs.  Too many exceptions to list, really.   Golf has rules to level the playing field for everyone; to eliminate competitive advantage that make it unfair for other competitors.  I don't see how arm lock putting is an unfair advantage. Personally that doesn't seem to give anyone an unfair advantage as some use it and are still out-putted by those that don't, but if the USGA and R and A ban it, so be it.  They put a lot of thought and I'm sure discussion into each and every rule.  If they use discussion threads as a barometer of general public opinion, then these threads may be in some small way responsible for considering change.  Ultimately we, as the general public, have little say in the rules so we post our opinions and play the way we want.  And we seek out the opinions of others, talk about them, and use it as a way to engender a feeling of community amongst people who love the game.  Write on, play on, and keep thinking the way you want because whether a thought is right or wrong, it is still invaluable to golfers and is not bad for the game.  

All these words and i have no idea wish you even said 

[NM01]

9 minutes ago, Josh Parker said:

Question.... I see you were/are a bowler.  Should bowlers who bowl with no finger holes be banned?  Should two handed bowlers be allowed?  You have several pros that do it.  

I am not sure I understand the logic. 

He does, he posted about that on the first page. Everything should be done his way by everyone

[Vertical]

Why not make all putting techniques legal? As long as it’s the same for everyone.

Edited July 25 by Vertical

[Burningbush]

 

On 4/17/2021 at 3:12 PM, LICC said:

Two hands on the putter is gripping it. Locking it against your arm is anchoring the stroke. Not for the pivot point but for the face rotation.  It shouldn’t be allowed. 

That is assuming that you don’t rotate your arm whatsoever. If I assumed your hands didn’t rotate at all then simply gripping the putter would anchor it for face rotation. 
 

My point is that your logic has a major assumption in it about the golfers ability. The truth is that it is anchored against a moving body and not a fixed one therefore it isn’t truly anchored. That holds the assumption that the golfer would not move their chest or belly in the pit stroke, but it’s not as drastic of an assumption given that you don’t have to move your chest or belly in order to make a stroke.l, whereas you must move your arms to make a putt stroke. I don’t mind it being legal at all. I don’t personally use one. I have considered using an armlock or broomstick not so much as a competitive advantage, but because if I were to switch to it I would be forced to practice putting more before I feel comfortable using it. 

[JLAude]

Although I wouldn’t mine seeing the armlock method taken out of the game, I would really like to see the pendulum method banned.  I know that Vijay and Langer are honest players but it looks too much like the anchor that is banned.  It just seems like a very slight work around.

[ole gray]

Well I have a LAB Broomstick with TPT shaft and come Tuesday my LAB Armlock is due to arrive. I've spent a good bit of money on both of these putters so that should tell you what I think about it! 

[NM01]

17 minutes ago, JLAude said:

Although I wouldn’t mine seeing the armlock method taken out of the game, I would really like to see the pendulum method banned.  I know that Vijay and Langer are honest players but it looks too much like the anchor that is banned.  It just seems like a very slight work around.

Doesn’t matter if it looks like the anchor, what matters is they aren’t.

What I would like to see is the ruling bodies to stop making rules based on optics.

i would also like to see the ruling bodies that are more in tuned with todays game but doubt that will happen because of how much they are caught up in the old school mindset of golf

[TDGeorge]

Anchoring is anchoring! 

Armlock putting is anchoring. It may not be illegal now (like all forms of anchoring), but it should be...and would be except for USGA logic. (??)

[chisag]

2 hours ago, ole gray said:

Well I have a LAB Broomstick with TPT shaft and come Tuesday my LAB Armlock is due to arrive. I've spent a good bit of money on both of these putters so that should tell you what I think about it! 

 

... The rules is the rules. I wish you the best of luck with your new addition.   

[ole gray]

7 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... The rules is the rules. I wish you the best of luck with your new addition.   

Thanks partner!

[NM01]

1 hour ago, TDGeorge said:

Anchoring is anchoring! 

Armlock putting is anchoring. It may not be illegal now (like all forms of anchoring), but it should be...and would be except for USGA logic. (??)

Not all armlock is anchoring. The rules clearly define what is and what’s not.

the logic is explained in the rules. Pretty easy to read and understand why it’s not cheating. Nearly as black and white as it can get for a rule.

[DaveP043]

20 hours ago, JLAude said:

Although I wouldn’t mine seeing the armlock method taken out of the game, I would really like to see the pendulum method banned.  I know that Vijay and Langer are honest players but it looks too much like the anchor that is banned.  It just seems like a very slight work around.

Of course its a work-around.  The Rules define what is and is not acceptable, these players have developed a way to use a long putter and still comply with the Rules.  And lest anyone forget, there are Rules Officials with them a lot of the time, watching (among other things) to verify that they continue to comply with the Rules.

17 hours ago, TDGeorge said:

Anchoring is anchoring! 

Armlock putting is anchoring. It may not be illegal now (like all forms of anchoring), but it should be...and would be except for USGA logic. (??)

The R&A (along with the USGA) have to "draw lines" between what is acceptable and what is not.  They clearly consider that the body is an unmoving anchor point, and that the arm is a moving part of the body, so it is NOT an unmoving anchor.  That seems a pretty logical place to draw the line.

Edited July 20 by DaveP043

[MissionMan]

8 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Of course its a work-around.  The Rules define what is and is not acceptable, these players have developed a way to use a long putter and still comply with the Rules.  And lest anyone forgets, there are Rules Officials with them a lot of the time, watching (among other things) to verify that they continue to comply with the Rules.

The R&A (along with the USGA) have to "draw lines" between what is acceptable and what is not.  They clearly consider that the body is an unmoving anchor point, and that the arm is a moving part of the body, so it is NOT an unmoving anchor.  That seems a pretty logical place to draw the line.

I don’t know if it’s a work around. The rules were introduced in 2013. Matt Kutcher won with a putter braced against his arm in 2012 which would classify as an arm lock by today’s standards.

The main concern behind the rule was actually belly putters which had an extraodinários high success rate. People seem to think that brooms were the main concern and point to Bernhard Langer as the culprit, but belly putting and the likes of Vijay Singh were the bigger concerns when the rules were introduced, and it was only really after Keegan Bradley won a major in 2011 that they looked to change the rules. 7 players won on tour in 2011 with belly putters.

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, MissionMan said:

I don’t know if it’s a work around.

Prior to the rule change, players using the "broomstick" did anchor their top hand against their chest.  When that was made illegal, these guys learned to use their preferred putter without anchoring.  That's a workaround, in my book, and I'm fine with it.