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Arm Lock Putting Should Be Illegal


LICC

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8 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I really don't want to fire up this debate again but...

There have been more and more players trying it and many not sticking with it because they are not finding the advantage. Xander won golf after going back to normal, Phil having it last all of 1 round. 

It's been said here and I'll say it again. If it truly was that big of an advantage everyone would do it. Armlock still is putting and clearly does not make putting automatic, it is still a skill and this is just another form of putting.

 

 

Agree 110% !   I've used my armlock for over three months now and I had to get away from the lock position.  I do better with it using a pendulum type swing with the grip away from my arm. Side saddle works much better than arm locking it.  

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On 8/8/2021 at 9:12 AM, GolfSpy_APH said:

I really don't want to fire up this debate again but...

There have been more and more players trying it and many not sticking with it because they are not finding the advantage. Xander won golf after going back to normal, Phil having it last all of 1 round. 

It's been said here and I'll say it again. If it truly was that big of an advantage everyone would do it. Armlock still is putting and clearly does not make putting automatic, it is still a skill and this is just another form of putting.

 

You really can't fire up a debate when you don't allow the person with the different opinion to comment ...

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2. Putter has to be the shortest club in your bag

Perez didn’t like belly putting, and doesn’t like arm-locking. He says it’s against the spirit of the game, which is why Perez says if he was King of Golf, he’d decree that your putter has to be the shortest in your bag

“I’ve never liked anchoring, and to me the arm lock is the most anchoring of them all,” he says. “I don’t care about how far it goes, I don’t care about the driver head. People want to see it go far…but you still have to make putts. The hardest thing is still making that 6-, 7-footer with a slide on it.”

https://golf.com/instruction/rules/2-rules-pga-tour-winner-would-change/

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On 8/8/2021 at 6:12 AM, GolfSpy_APH said:

It's been said here and I'll say it again. If it truly was that big of an advantage everyone would do it. Armlock still is putting and clearly does not make putting automatic, it is still a skill and this is just another form of putting.

 

... I have certainly let my opinion be known and think it gives an advantage to someone with the yips, although you can still yip a little with the arm lock as Zac showed in your video. 😳  Putting is a strength of my game and an arm lock or belly putter is much more difficult for me to use so I understand your point. Of course this is only one aspect of putting and reading is equally important and arm lock/belly has nothing to do with reading greens. Lastly it is obviously a moot point until it is taken under consideration to be deemed illegal but the powers that be seem to be totally against any bifurcation of rules. I'd kinda like to see it outlawed at the tournament to Pro level but think recreational golfers, especially mid to higher index players should do whatever it takes to make the game enjoyable. Of course the obvious is if someone going to an arm lock/belly putter there is a 99% chance they are not very good putters to begin with so again not so much an advantage but more of a bandaid for the yips. 

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Oddly enough, in 2013 Pat Perez was against the anchored putting ban, saying:

“Bottom line, there’s not enough evidence to prove that anchoring is an advantage,” Perez said. “OK, so a couple of guys have won majors with them. Those guys also played fantastic.”

https://www.dispatch.com/article/20130529/SPORTS/305299737

So which Perez opinion should we use?

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

Oddly enough, in 2013 Pat Perez was against the anchored putting ban, saying:

“Bottom line, there’s not enough evidence to prove that anchoring is an advantage,” Perez said. “OK, so a couple of guys have won majors with them. Those guys also played fantastic.”

https://www.dispatch.com/article/20130529/SPORTS/305299737

So which Perez opinion should we use?

There are plenty of people who have amended their views on any number of things over an 8 year period.  

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is anyone in here that is against armlock putting also in favor of the MLB outlawing submarine pictching motions or the NBA making underhand free throws illegal?

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49 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

is anyone in here that is against armlock putting also in favor of the MLB outlawing submarine pictching motions or the NBA making underhand free throws illegal?

MLB Baseball;  you bring up MLB baseball;  an organization that has different a different set of rules based on which league you are in.   Pitchers need to take their swings at the plate;  ban the DH!!!!

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1 hour ago, cnosil said:

MLB Baseball;  you bring up MLB baseball;  an organization that has different a different set of rules based on which league you are in.   Pitchers need to take their swings at the plate;  ban the DH!!!!

I agree with everything you said except for the redundancy in your statement by essentially saying Major League Baseball Baseball. Everyone is fighting for rules in this thread and I plan to die on this hill. Yes though ban the DH. 

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3 hours ago, bens197 said:

There are plenty of people who have amended their views on any number of things over an 8 year period.  

True, but the same objection stands, there's no statistical evidence that armlock putting is an advantage. 

The simple fact is that the Ruling Bodies chose to draw a line regarding anchoring, and armlock falls on the legal side of that line.  Any different line could be chosen, and it would be just as arbitrary.  Do the palms have to face each other, must the hands touch, may the end of the putter touch the lead arm above a specific line on the wrist?  The rule draws an arbitrary but reasonable line, any new rule would be just as arbitrary.

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3 hours ago, cnosil said:

MLB Baseball;  you bring up MLB baseball;  an organization that has different a different set of rules based on which league you are in.   Pitchers need to take their swings at the plate;  ban the DH!!!!

 

... There was an episode of Happy Days where the Fonz had to drive an Ice Cream truck and complained that after souping up the engine he could get it up to 80 mph but never did it because every time he started to get it going, he had to slow down for some little kid waiving a dime. Thats how I feel about pitchers hitting. The offense just gets going with 2 outs and runners on 2nd and third and the pitcher has to bat AFTER walking the bases loaded so they can get to the pitcher? Then you also have the scenario where the pitcher is having an outstanding game coming to the 8th inning with only 87 pitches thrown but down 2 to 0 with runners in scoring position and 2 outs so you have to replace him with a pinch hitter and bring in a reliever?!?! 

... Clearly we are either National League or American League fans and I love a DH but doubt anyone likes the rules of the other league. 🤪

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13 hours ago, Chip Strokes said:

is anyone in here that is against armlock putting also in favor of the MLB outlawing submarine pictching motions or the NBA making underhand free throws illegal?

That is a very simple distinction. None of what you described uses a change in equipment in order to execute. Also, MLB does have restrictions on certain motions- a pitcher can’t throw to first after making a motion to the plate- that is a balk. 

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26 minutes ago, LICC said:

That is a very simple distinction. None of what you described uses a change in equipment in order to execute

I can’t believe I’m back in this thread but your answer to his question isn’t valid. By your response everyone should play standard length, lie, grip, etc on every club! They don’t, everyone “changes equipment” to play their best. It is why you get fitted!

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

I can’t believe I’m back in this thread but your answer to his question isn’t valid. By your response everyone should play standard length, lie, grip, etc on every club! They don’t, everyone “changes equipment” to play their best. It is why you get fitted!

All sports have limits on equipment, and the equipment variance has to stay within the limits. 

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17 minutes ago, LICC said:

All sports have limits on equipment, and the equipment variance has to stay within the limits. 

That’s not the point I was making. You can’t dismiss his statements using the “change in equipment” argument and then dismiss that same argument just to support what you want to say.  
 

The problem with this whole thread and a few others like it are you keep quoting other peoples opinions like they are facts that prove you right while at the same time dismissing everyone’s opinion that disagrees with you as wrong.  

 

 

 

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Driver:    :cobra-small: Dark speed LS 8* set to -1.5* with an Attas Daaas 4x shaft @ 45”

Fairway: :srixon-small: F85 3 wood with a XPhplexx Agera X @ 42.5”

 :srixon-small: F85 5 wood with a UST Elements Chrome 7F5 @ 41.5"

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Irons: :edel-golf-1: SMS Pros 4-PW with Steelfiber I95s 

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               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 46* zz wedge shaft

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11 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

That’s not the point I was making. You can’t dismiss his statements using the “change in equipment” argument and then dismiss that same argument just to support what you want to say.  
 

The problem with this whole thread and a few others like it are you keep quoting other peoples opinions like they are facts that prove you right while at the same time dismissing everyone’s opinion that disagrees with you as wrong.  

IMO, using different arm angles to throw a baseball (which is the same baseball every time) is not comparable to using an increased length putter in order to lock it to your arm when you make the stroke. 

I quote other people's opinions to show other people's opinions.

I really can't comment any more on this because the moderators have warned they will suspend or ban me for posting different opinions that you and others don't like.

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7 minutes ago, LICC said:

IMO, using different arm angles to throw a baseball (which is the same baseball every time) is not comparable to using an increased length putter in order to lock it to your arm when you make the stroke. 

I quote other people's opinions to show other people's opinions.

I really can't comment any more on this because the moderators have warned they will suspend or ban me for posting different opinions that you and others don't like.

Ok last thing then I’m done forever.   The same ball argument for baseball applies only to the ball in golf nothing more. Bats to hit the ball or arms to throw it equate more to the club than anything and bat more so than arm. Not all bats are the same weight or length or even material just like not all clubs are.  

 

 

 

What is in my Sun Mountain C-130 bag or Jones MyGolfSpy bag

Driver:    :cobra-small: Dark speed LS 8* set to -1.5* with an Attas Daaas 4x shaft @ 45”

Fairway: :srixon-small: F85 3 wood with a XPhplexx Agera X @ 42.5”

 :srixon-small: F85 5 wood with a UST Elements Chrome 7F5 @ 41.5"

Driving Iron: :ping-small: Rapture 2-Iron 

Irons: :edel-golf-1: SMS Pros 4-PW with Steelfiber I95s 

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50* T grind with Steelfiber i110s

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 46* zz wedge shaft

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 E grind 54* zz wedge shaft

Putters: :L.A.B.: Mezz.1 34” 69* lie

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2 hours ago, LICC said:

That is a very simple distinction. None of what you described uses a change in equipment in order to execute. Also, MLB does have restrictions on certain motions- a pitcher can’t throw to first after making a motion to the plate- that is a balk. 

i'm aware of what a balk is.  my two seasons in the mets organization taught me a thing or two.  

and submarine and underhand free throws are very valid corollaries.  they're deviations on a "standard" motion that give SOME players an advantage over others.  namely, the players who can't get the job done doing things the conventional way.  

if your issue is the changing of the equipment, then are you ok with the infinite number of baseball bat varieties? flared knob, no knob, choking up, pinky off, axe handle....how about different weights, lengths, weigh to length ratios, barrel to hand ratios, materials?

how about the guys who still play in metal spikes vs. the ones who choose to play in turf shoes?

what about different face masks in football? visors? flak jackets? 

or nba players who wear compression sleeves, wrist bands, or finger sleeves.

if i'm a swimmer and want to wear a speedo, but the guy in the next lane has on the suit that comes to his knees, should i protest?

these are all things that make a much larger MENTAL difference than a PHYSICAL difference, but are well within the rules of their sport.  why should golf be any different in this respect?

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2 minutes ago, russtopherb said:

But making a statement like the one I quoted, when there's been nothing but goalpost moving the entire time, is a bush league move.

the goalposts have been relocated to a completely different stadium at this point

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12 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

True, but the same objection stands, there's no statistical evidence that armlock putting is an advantage. 

The simple fact is that the Ruling Bodies chose to draw a line regarding anchoring, and armlock falls on the legal side of that line.  Any different line could be chosen, and it would be just as arbitrary.  Do the palms have to face each other, must the hands touch, may the end of the putter touch the lead arm above a specific line on the wrist?  The rule draws an arbitrary but reasonable line, any new rule would be just as arbitrary.

I know you're the black & white rules guy so I am not looking to debate theoretical changes.

It would be neat to see a comparison for Kuchar, Keegan, Bryson and others to see what effect it had on their putting stats.  Is it more of a comfort thing or is there really a tangible difference.  

Frankly, I am not even remotely interested in this debate.  If the governing bodies wanted a change, they would change.

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13 minutes ago, bens197 said:

It would be neat to see a comparison for Kuchar, Keegan, Bryson and others to see what effect it had on their putting stats.  Is it more of a comfort thing or is there really a tangible difference.  

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this style of putting has improved the performance of certain players.  But the same might be said of the pencil grip for the players who use it, of big mallet putters, of pretty much every variable that players can choose.  A player would be foolish to use something that wasn't the best choice for himself.  

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9 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

A player would be foolish to use something that wasn't the best choice for himself.  

Couldn’t agree more. 

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Currently testing the 2024 PING S159 wedges…

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Was testing, still loving the 2023 Titleist T100 Irons 4-P

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28 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

i'm aware of what a balk is.  my two seasons in the mets organization taught me a thing or two.  

and submarine and underhand free throws are very valid corollaries.  they're deviations on a "standard" motion that give SOME players an advantage over others.  namely, the players who can't get the job done doing things the conventional way.  

if your issue is the changing of the equipment, then are you ok with the infinite number of baseball bat varieties? flared knob, no knob, choking up, pinky off, axe handle....how about different weights, lengths, weigh to length ratios, barrel to hand ratios, materials?

how about the guys who still play in metal spikes vs. the ones who choose to play in turf shoes?

what about different face masks in football? visors? flak jackets? 

or nba players who wear compression sleeves, wrist bands, or finger sleeves.

if i'm a swimmer and want to wear a speedo, but the guy in the next lane has on the suit that comes to his knees, should i protest?

these are all things that make a much larger MENTAL difference than a PHYSICAL difference, but are well within the rules of their sport.  why should golf be any different in this respect?

There are not an "infinite" number of bat varieties. Aluminum is not allowed. And: (a) The bat shall be a smooth, round stick not more than 2.61 inches in diameter at the thickest part and not more than 42 inches in length.

Swimming authorities have banned certain swimsuits in competition: "By 2010, the fate of the LZR racer was sealed: FINA, the international governing body of swimming banned swimsuits that might aid speed, buoyancy and performance — including the LZR Racer."

The NBA has banned APL sneakers that boosted jumping: "Its first product, a basketball shoe that launched in 2010, gave such a boost that the NBA banned it, saying it gave players an unfair advantage." 

The NFL has limits and minimums on the inflation pressure of a ball.

I can keep going. All sports have permitted variances and non-permissible variances to equipment. IMO, allowing an increased putter length so that someone can lock the putter to their forearm is not comparable to a baseball pitcher throwing sidearm.

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36 minutes ago, russtopherb said:

If you've been warned by mods I can guarantee that it was NOT for what you posted, and I take offense to you making this statement publicly. 

This forum is one of the best, most civil ones you'll find out there in the golf internet world and the mods here do an amazing job. Differing opinions and discussion/debate is welcomed here. Having an opinion against the golf masses is what got this entire site started in the first place. But making a statement like the one I quoted, when there's been nothing but goalpost moving the entire time, is a bush league move that says far more about your motives than it does about the moderation team.

I agree I really like this forum. The warning was about the forum discussions, nothing else. The mods warned me that too many people didn't like my opinions. I am always very careful not to personally insult anyone or use foul language. And I try my best to stick to facts, sources, and give reasoning. I asked the mods if they could point out anything I specifically said that was a problem, and they didn't. They just didn't like that other people didn't like my opinions and the debates became lengthy and kept going back and forth. 

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@LICCyou failed to address nearly ALL of the things i brought up. 

a ballplayer can get a bat produced in nearly any way he chooses so as to give himself the best possible chance of producing a good result.  

the same way a golfer can get a putter produced in nearly any way he chooses so as to give himself the best possible chance of producing a good result.

...within the rules. (let's not forget that armlock is still well within the rules)

should it be illegal for a baseball player to get a 36" bat and choke up 3" for more control? 

same. same.

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3 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

@LICCyou failed to address nearly ALL of the things i brought up. 

a ballplayer can get a bat produced in nearly any way he chooses so as to give himself the best possible chance of producing a good result.  

the same way a golfer can get a putter produced in nearly any way he chooses so as to give himself the best possible chance of producing a good result.

...within the rules. (let's not forget that armlock is still well within the rules)

should it be illegal for a baseball player to get a 36" bat and choke up 3" for more control? 

same. same.

And that is the whole original point of this discussion, that the armlock putter should not be within the rules.

This is going in a circle so no point in continuing.

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Just now, LICC said:

This is going in a circle so no point in continuing.

hey i knew we'd eventually come to an agreement.

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  image.png.4f15ae5144722103242556b2db6d1033.pngSIM 3W 14º | Fujikura Atmos Black Tour Spec 9TX

image.png.bce9eebd9a20266703b359d88959bbcb.pngSIM2 5W 18º | Fujikura Ventus Black 10X
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