Fittings: I was wrong (far too broad)

[Middler 3,752]

I’ve had several contentious posts on fittings that I now realize were misguided on my part, or at least needed more direct clarification. I had an unsuccessful fitting at Club Champion, but it’s probably because my sole objective was unlikely to be fixed by fitting. That’s my fault.

• If you want to optimize distance and/or launch, a fitting by a qualified fitter will probably provide good results, for players of almost any ability. Lessons still may be more helpful for high HI players, but you can’t know for sure without trying both.
• If you have a bias to the right or left, a fitting might be helpful, but it may be partially or wholly a swing fault (lessons).
• If you want to tighten dispersion, a (Club Champion) standard fitting is unlikely to help, and they won’t tell you that - or they would have turned me away.  Lessons are far more likely to help. [That was my situation that I incorrectly applied to other fitting goals. I had no issue with distance or launch. I explained my MO several times but it was lost in discussion, and I drew conclusions too broadly as well]
  • For a fitting to improve dispersion, a very different methodology would have to be used.
• And even Club Champion will admit they can’t fix swing faults, they don’t sell “magic sticks” (their term).

There may be other expectations that are within or outside what a fitting can likely help with.

I still contend that some people recommend fittings as a cure all for the wrong reasons, but my view was far too narrow. Live and learn…

[myherobobhope 347]

I've had amazing fittings (shout out to SeeMore and Cody... that was the best of the best), good fittings and mediocre fittings... at the end of the day, the best fittings come when you know what you are looking for and go to the right person...

My SeeMore fitting was great, but it was more than just a fitting... it was a putting lesson, a putting clinic and a putter fitting rolled into one... it was for a single club, and we discussed every part of my putting. I'd likely be a better putter with JUST the correctly fit putter, but I was given the tools I needed to consistently improve my putting... they will last beyond my putter purchase, even though I'll probably keep this putter for 10 years (and replace it with another SeeMore if I replace it) I'm incredibly happy with the end result of the fitting, but the club was a small part of that. 

Honestly, I've stopped touting "go get fit" as forum advice... it's basically useless. Getting fit isn't useless, but telling people to get fit doesn't really move the ball forward. I like to talk to people about what they are looking for out of their clubs and how to get there... Unless your clubs are extremely off spec, you can make them work. 

I don't know... I think we've swung the pendulum too far on the fitting front. It's a useful tool, but you don't necessarily need to see a fitter to "get fit"... I've been pretty happy with my driver play in self fit drivers (really, I just like the Aldila Silver shaft... though I'm currently gaming a Ventus Black I was given) but I tried a bunch of stuff, figured out what I liked and what I didn't like and adjusted from there. I'm sure I could dial in my numbers better with a fitter, but I could also spend the same money dialing in my swing with a coach and hit the same setup better...

Ultimately, a lot of golf comes down to confidence... if you are comfortable over the ball, you are going to hit it better... If spending money at Club Champion to have the clubs built to your exact specs makes you more comfortable, GREAT. Spend the money. If you want to fit yourself, buy used and can get comfortable over a set off clubs you bought on eBay, that's awesome too!

I think equipment can be important, but it's a small part of the game... I played TaylorMade oversize burners from 1995 for 20+ years. They had regular shafts in them, and I swing a 7 iron around 95 mph. Did I have a tendency to moonball shots? Yes. Did I play some of the best golf of my life with the set? Yes. Could I have played better with a different setup? Most likely. 

I think, ultimately, good golf is about minimizing your mistakes more than it is maximizing your "great shots"... Getting fit for new stuff isn't going to get rid of your mistakes, so it only makes sense to get fit if it will make those mistakes less penal... At best it's a marginal gain that can easily be overwhelmed by strategy (good or bad)... Knowing your dispersion tendencies and incorporating them into your strategy is far more important than having MOI matched clubs that have been pured and blessed by a monk... but there is nothing wrong with doing both!

[cnosil 26,073]

10 minutes ago, myherobobhope said:

Honestly, I've stopped touting "go get fit" as forum advice... it's basically useless. Getting fit isn't useless, but telling people to get fit doesn't really move the ball forward. I like to talk to people about what they are looking for out of their clubs and how to get there... Unless your clubs are extremely off spec, you can make them work. 

As I have learned more I agree with the comments in this thread.   I think most equipment junkie golfers have an idea on how to fit themselves and can do it reasonably well.   Yes,  you are correct that most people can make any set of clubs work,  but the question is what compensations do they have to do to get them to work.   The problem is the majority of golfers walk into a shop,  pick up the clubs they want, and walk out of the store.  Some may say they need a particular flex, but as we know people overestimate the flex they need and there is no industry standard for flex.      Then we have the people that post on the forum,  "I swing X MPH so I got this flex shaft and I am hitting it worse than my previous club."   Or the "tell me what shaft (or club) I need to get"   The only wat to answer those questions is to compare clubs on a launch monitor.....basically get fit.   Fitting in my mind is simply a comparison of different clubs which can be done by the individual, the store, or a fitting specialist.    Without some comparison it is impossible to know how a club will perform. 

As one of the most wanted testers I can tell you that every club on the market is high quality and I can figure out how to make them work.  The problem is that the output from those clubs may not be the best and without having someone compare different clubs or settings.   We just wrapped up GI iron testing and every club is top notch but every club performed so differently in the provided configuration.  Given the proper shaft head combination I believe I could fix my dispersion issue with those clubs.  The problem that those clubs cause is related to spin and distance.   I don't know the numbers off the top of my head but with a seven iron,  the average distance for the shortest club was in the 165 range and the longest was in the 180 range.   Most golfers seeing those numbers will say take the 180 club, but from a performance perspective those clubs probably won't perform on the course as well as the 165 club.  

[myherobobhope 347]

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Most golfers seeing those numbers will say take the 180 club, but from a performance perspective those clubs probably won't perform on the course as well as the 165 club.  

100% and I think this is the problem with just “getting fit”... a good fitter will steer you toward the best dispersion or at least find ways to make the 180 yard club work for you... an ok fitting will basically get you into a decent shaft, pay themselves on the back for adding 15 yards to your seven iron and move on to the next fitting...

You have to know what performance you want out of a club and then have someone willing to take the time to make that happen... 

Mark Crossfield talked about how he stopped doing fittings and only gives lessons now... if he sees you hitting a club that doesn’t work for you, he considers putting you into a better fit more of a lesson than a fitting. I think this is a better way to look at things... but I also think people should have coaches who can check that they are hitting the right equipment.

[cnosil 26,073]

31 minutes ago, myherobobhope said:

100% and I think this is the problem with just “getting fit”... a good fitter will steer you toward the best dispersion or at least find ways to make the 180 yard club work for you... an ok fitting will basically get you into a decent shaft, pay themselves on the back for adding 15 yards to your seven iron and move on to the next fitting...

You have to know what performance you want out of a club and then have someone willing to take the time to make that happen... 

Mark Crossfield talked about how he stopped doing fittings and only gives lessons now... if he sees you hitting a club that doesn’t work for you, he considers putting you into a better fit more of a lesson than a fitting. I think this is a better way to look at things... but I also think people should have coaches who can check that they are hitting the right equipment.

That Hack it out podcast did have an influence on my perspective on fittings.   That is why I have come to the conclusion that the basic type of fitting offered can only get you more distance and probably won't help with dispersion.  Dispersion is more of a lesson and measured over time kind of thing. 

[ParFore74x 1,568]

Having just been fitted for irons for the first time a few weeks ago, I can definitely agree with the sentiments here. I never disliked my old clubs at all but, I always wondered if a fitting would be beneficial to me. Fitting is not an “instant fix” for anything but, for me it definitely helped me with confidence and I think that almost every golfer will agree that confidence is a huge element to success. 

[dlow206 10,915]

I strongly believe that if you are outside the meat of the bell curve based on one or more physical characteristics, you should get fit. I also believe that if you need to put your mind at ease that you have tried out multiple combinations of clubs so that you don't have in the back of your mind that what if Club X is better, then you should also get fit. 

[Pandaman 285]

I agree, a fitting in itself can't fix fundamental swing faults.  But even a basic fitting can help ensure you are using suitable equipment, for you.

I view 'fittings' as having two distinct levels...

The first, would be the standard 'store/pro' type fitting where you try various models and shafts to see what works best for you, and sort out the length and lie angles etc.  And maybe optimise the adjustable bits.

The second would be a much more detailed 'tour type', and possibly multi visit, process.  Tweaking individual club lofts etc to really dial them in.  I doubt the vast majority of us would be consitent enough to gain a significant benefit from this, but it would be a great experience all the same.

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Pandaman

[myherobobhope 347]

42 minutes ago, cnosil said:

That Hack it out podcast did have an influence on my perspective on fittings.   That is why I have come to the conclusion that the basic type of fitting offered can only get you more distance and probably won't help with dispersion.  Dispersion is more of a lesson and measured over time kind of thing. 

Yeah, I guess that’s what I mean by “go get fit” is not really functional advice anymore... 

it’s become too broad of a concept and everyone offers some level of it... if you wouldn’t trust a fitter to give you a lesson, you probably shouldn’t get fit by them...

[silver & black 6,444]

1 hour ago, myherobobhope said:

I've had amazing fittings (shout out to SeeMore and Cody... that was the best of the best), good fittings and mediocre fittings... at the end of the day, the best fittings come when you know what you are looking for and go to the right person...

My SeeMore fitting was great, but it was more than just a fitting... it was a putting lesson, a putting clinic and a putter fitting rolled into one... it was for a single club, and we discussed every part of my putting. I'd likely be a better putter with JUST the correctly fit putter, but I was given the tools I needed to consistently improve my putting... they will last beyond my putter purchase, even though I'll probably keep this putter for 10 years (and replace it with another SeeMore if I replace it) I'm incredibly happy with the end result of the fitting, but the club was a small part of that. 

Honestly, I've stopped touting "go get fit" as forum advice... it's basically useless. Getting fit isn't useless, but telling people to get fit doesn't really move the ball forward. I like to talk to people about what they are looking for out of their clubs and how to get there... Unless your clubs are extremely off spec, you can make them work. 

I don't know... I think we've swung the pendulum too far on the fitting front. It's a useful tool, but you don't necessarily need to see a fitter to "get fit"... I've been pretty happy with my driver play in self fit drivers (really, I just like the Aldila Silver shaft... though I'm currently gaming a Ventus Black I was given) but I tried a bunch of stuff, figured out what I liked and what I didn't like and adjusted from there. I'm sure I could dial in my numbers better with a fitter, but I could also spend the same money dialing in my swing with a coach and hit the same setup better...

Ultimately, a lot of golf comes down to confidence... if you are comfortable over the ball, you are going to hit it better... If spending money at Club Champion to have the clubs built to your exact specs makes you more comfortable, GREAT. Spend the money. If you want to fit yourself, buy used and can get comfortable over a set off clubs you bought on eBay, that's awesome too!

I think equipment can be important, but it's a small part of the game... I played TaylorMade oversize burners from 1995 for 20+ years. They had regular shafts in them, and I swing a 7 iron around 95 mph. Did I have a tendency to moonball shots? Yes. Did I play some of the best golf of my life with the set? Yes. Could I have played better with a different setup? Most likely. 

I think, ultimately, good golf is about minimizing your mistakes more than it is maximizing your "great shots"... Getting fit for new stuff isn't going to get rid of your mistakes, so it only makes sense to get fit if it will make those mistakes less penal... At best it's a marginal gain that can easily be overwhelmed by strategy (good or bad)... Knowing your dispersion tendencies and incorporating them into your strategy is far more important than having MOI matched clubs that have been pured and blessed by a monk... but there is nothing wrong with doing both!

This is a great post! I agree with you 100%

[Middler 3,752]

21 hours ago, myherobobhope said:

100% and I think this is the problem with just “getting fit”... a good fitter will steer you toward the best dispersion or at least find ways to make the 180 yard club work for you... an ok fitting will basically get you into a decent shaft, pay themselves on the back for adding 15 yards to your seven iron and move on to the next fitting...

You have to know what performance you want out of a club and then have someone willing to take the time to make that happen... 

Mark Crossfield talked about how he stopped doing fittings and only gives lessons now... if he sees you hitting a club that doesn’t work for you, he considers putting you into a better fit more of a lesson than a fitting. I think this is a better way to look at things... but I also think people should have coaches who can check that they are hitting the right equipment.

Hitting 4 shots with each head & shaft, as Club Champion did/does, will NOT provide meaningful dispersion data for most players. That was my overriding point. By all means get fit for distance and launch, but dispersion is a very different case than most fitters methods are tailored to address - and some fitters don’t know that - including the rookie I got at Club Champion.

[myherobobhope 347]

2 hours ago, Middler said:

Hitting 4 shots with each head & shaft, as Club Champion did/does, will NOT provide meaningful dispersion data for most players. That was my overriding point. By all means get fit for distance and launch, but dispersion is a very different case than most fitters methods are tailored to address - and some fitters don’t know that.

Agree! I’ll also never tell anyone to get fit at club champion... I haven’t (and won’t) do business with them.

edit to add, nothing against club champion... they’ve obviously got a successful business model and happy customers... it’s just not the experience I’m looking for in a fitting. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by myherobobhope

[jddaigneault 1,977]

I believe fittings are a great tool. Like any tool, you need to know how to use them. If you go in clueless as to what to ask and just go with the flow of what the fitter is saying, you will likely walk out with a good set of clubs that you can play minimally better with. More specifically, you’ll hit everything farther (assuming you aren’t replacing clubs more often than your underwear). 

If you know what to ask and how to use the tool, fittings can be immensely helpful. It’s also easier to fine an honest politician than a great club fitter, so there’s that too. 

I do agree that some people come to the forum with such broad questions that the only quick and effective answer to their questions is “go get fit”. 

[Crane263 13]

Knowing what you are looking for is important but its also important if you don’t already know to study up on the meaning of the meterics being measured in a fitting. Knowing what attack angle, launch angle, spin rate, etc... mean will help you ask your fitter questions that can help your swing and get a much better fit for where your swing is at and where your trying to get it too.  

[Larryd3 385]

I'll jump in here to comment on a couple of items above on dispersion and how fitting doesn't help with that as much.  For me, I had an iron fitting awhile ago at TrueSpec and he really focused on dispersion for me.  It wasn't about how long I hit the irons, although that did have some input, but more on what shafts felt the best to me and how the dispersion was for each of them vs my current shafts.  What I found out was my current shafts were just too light for me and moving to a heavier shaft (95) which isn't that heavy, made a really big difference in accuracy and consistency and didn't cost me any yards, actually gained a little due to hitting the ball more squarely.  That fitting was also hitting from inside out thru a bay into the range and then hitting off grass into the range so I could see the real ball flight.  It was a good use of money and time but what I learned from that, I most likely would forgo that in the near future since I know what works for me and what doesn't.  Great topic

[cnosil 26,073]

34 minutes ago, Larryd3 said:

I'll jump in here to comment on a couple of items above on dispersion and how fitting doesn't help with that as much.  For me, I had an iron fitting awhile ago at TrueSpec and he really focused on dispersion for me.  It wasn't about how long I hit the irons, although that did have some input, but more on what shafts felt the best to me and how the dispersion was for each of them vs my current shafts.  What I found out was my current shafts were just too light for me and moving to a heavier shaft (95) which isn't that heavy, made a really big difference in accuracy and consistency and didn't cost me any yards, actually gained a little due to hitting the ball more squarely.  That fitting was also hitting from inside out thru a bay into the range and then hitting off grass into the range so I could see the real ball flight.  It was a good use of money and time but what I learned from that, I most likely would forgo that in the near future since I know what works for me and what doesn't.  Great topic

How many shots did you hit and does the dispersion pattern you saw during the fitting match up to o course performance.  How wide and deep are those patterns for your clubs?

[Golfspy_CG2 33,694]

On 5/1/2021 at 11:23 AM, Middler said:

Hitting 4 shots with each head & shaft, as Club Champion did/does, will NOT provide meaningful dispersion data for most players. That was my overriding point. By all means get fit for distance and launch, but dispersion is a very different case than most fitters methods are tailored to address - and some fitters don’t know that - including the rookie I got at Club Champion.

I disagree.

This was evidenced on more than one occasion in over 30 fittings I assisted with last week.  The fitter in several cases could tell after 3 shots with one configuration if it was not the correct clubhead/shaft or lie angle for the player. When someone tells you upfront they have always been 2 degrees flat, and you give them that setup to start with, and they proceed to hit 3 straight big fades with it, you can tell it's not the correct setup for them.

Same with shaft, you can tell within a few swings if that shaft is correct for them.  Once you find the right combo, sure you may want to see a few more than 3 to confirm the setup.  But it doesn't take long to tell if something is right tor wrong, or improve a part of the shot, be it dispersion, distance or ball flight. 

[jlukes 16,687]

13 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

I disagree.

This was evidenced on more than one occasion in over 30 fittings I assisted with last week.  The fitter in several cases could tell after 3 shots with one configuration if it was not the correct clubhead/shaft or lie angle for the player. When someone tells you upfront they have always been 2 degrees flat, and you give them that setup to start with, and they proceed to hit 3 straight big fades with it, you can tell it's not the correct setup for them.

Same with shaft, you can tell within a few swings if that shaft is correct for them.  Once you find the right combo, sure you may want to see a few more than 3 to confirm the setup.  But it doesn't take long to tell if something is right tor wrong, or improve a part of the shot, be it dispersion, distance or ball flight. 

Yup. Ian Fraser at TXG says 2 swings and he can tell if it’s something worth continuing with

[cnosil 26,073]

26 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

I disagree.

This was evidenced on more than one occasion in over 30 fittings I assisted with last week.  The fitter in several cases could tell after 3 shots with one configuration if it was not the correct clubhead/shaft or lie angle for the player. When someone tells you upfront they have always been 2 degrees flat, and you give them that setup to start with, and they proceed to hit 3 straight big fades with it, you can tell it's not the correct setup for them.

Same with shaft, you can tell within a few swings if that shaft is correct for them.  Once you find the right combo, sure you may want to see a few more than 3 to confirm the setup.  But it doesn't take long to tell if something is right tor wrong, or improve a part of the shot, be it dispersion, distance or ball flight. 

 

12 minutes ago, jlukes said:

Yup. Ian Fraser at TXG says 2 swings and he can tell if it’s something worth continuing with

I don’t disagree that you can tell within a few swing if a shaft could work for you.    However I don’t think you can really nail down dispersion with a few shots.  Dispersion patterns are 20+ yards wide with irons and approach 60 yards with driver. They would be slightly narrower just hitting balls during a fitting but a ball can go anywhere within your pattern on any given swing and you dont know which one is coming next.  Two consecutive shits could be 20+ yards apart and still be good shots.   

[Golfspy_CG2 33,694]

26 minutes ago, jlukes said:

Yup. Ian Fraser at TXG says 2 swings and he can tell if it’s something worth continuing with

I can personally vouch for that, as it happened with a couple things we tried in my fitting.