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Fittings: I was wrong (far too broad)


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10 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

I don’t disagree that you can tell within a few swing if a shaft could work for you.    However I don’t think you can really nail down dispersion with a few shots.  Dispersion patterns are 20+ yards wide with irons and approach 60 yards with driver. They would be slightly narrower just hitting balls during a fitting but a ball can go anywhere within your pattern on any given swing and you dont know which one is coming next.  Two consecutive shits could be 20+ yards apart and still be good shots.   

I'm not saying 100% of the time you can tell on 3 shots, that'd be a ridiculous claim to make. But there are definitely instances where you can tell on dispersion within 3 shots, the example I gave above was just one of several we saw last week. 

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29 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

I'm not saying 100% of the time you can tell on 3 shots, that'd be a ridiculous claim to make. But there are definitely instances where you can tell on dispersion within 3 shots, the example I gave above was just one of several we saw last week. 

I think you can gather lots of info in three swings and I think any more the player adapts to the combo.   Distance, ball flight,  sequencing are are quick assessments.   I just think Dispersion is something that takes longer to evaluate

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
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3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I think you can gather lots of info in three swings and I think any more the player adapts to the combo.   Distance, ball flight,  sequencing are are quick assessments.   I just think Dispersion is something that takes longer to evaluate

That same data along with info from the golfer on what their tendencies and typical miss is can lead to working with shaft and head combo setup to reduce the the miss both side to side and front to back. It’s not going to fix a swing flaw and certain swings we all make where the ball goes way off line doesn’t have a club or shaft that would help that.

If someone has a 10 yard left miss and 15 yard right miss and the fitter sets them up with something that in a few swing shows less than 10 and 15 their dispersion improves 

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Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

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2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

That same data along with info from the golfer on what their tendencies and typical miss is can lead to working with shaft and head combo setup to reduce the the miss both side to side and front to back. It’s not going to fix a swing flaw and certain swings we all make where the ball goes way off line doesn’t have a club or shaft that would help that.

If someone has a 10 yard left miss and 15 yard right miss and the fitter sets them up with something that in a few swing shows less than 10 and 15 their dispersion improves 

Understand what you are saying and agree with what you are saying.  The results of a fitting could make dispersion better as that is more of a long term evaluation.  Even the best players in the world have wider dispersion patterns that we would expect.  They have tighter patterns when swinging on the range with no pressure to hit a specific target.  

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1 minute ago, cnosil said:

Understand what you are saying and agree with what you are saying.  The results of a fitting could make dispersion better as that is more of a long term evaluation.  Even the best players in the world have wider dispersion patterns that we would expect.  They have tighter patterns when swinging on the range with no pressure to hit a specific target.  

Swing, course and weather conditions will have an impact on how things go on the course as well as lie, stance and so on. Hard to track dispersion over a long period of time via on course is hard to do and determine if it’s swing or not.

If someone spent hours upon hours hitting balls on a monitor and tracking that data they could probably look at the dispersion and see what changes occur if any.

In a fitting they are trying to get a setup that works for ones best swings and reduces the impact of the bad ones to give that person a chance at playing better 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

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30 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Swing, course and weather conditions will have an impact on how things go on the course as well as lie, stance and so on. Hard to track dispersion over a long period of time via on course is hard to do and determine if it’s swing or not.

If someone spent hours upon hours hitting balls on a monitor and tracking that data they could probably look at the dispersion and see what changes occur if any.

In a fitting they are trying to get a setup that works for ones best swings and reduces the impact of the bad ones to give that person a chance at playing better 

You and I are agreeing.   My point is that doing a fitting to solely improve dispersion is   probably not realistic.  There are so many factors involved and a fitting will help find the combo that helps deliver the club more consistently.  it may not reduce total dispersion but may improve total grouping.  

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Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
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For me fitting data is a good way to quickly compare different components and their effect on my shot.  I can easily see trends from 5 - 10 shots and know the impact of a change whether its spin, distance or dispersion from a standard swing.  

But since I try to flight the ball differently if necessary, the playability (and included in that is dispersion from the shot shape I want) of a club is something I need to get from on the course over time.  Sometimes it doesn't take long at all, maybe 18 holes and sometimes it takes a few weeks.   Sometimes it takes a while until the windy weather comes around and I find the shaft in my driver seems pretty good but I can't flight the ball as low as I'd like hitting into the wind so "sadly" I need to experiment some more!  🕵️‍♂️

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26 minutes ago, cnosil said:

You and I are agreeing.   My point is that doing a fitting to solely improve dispersion is   probably not realistic.  There are so many factors involved and a fitting will help find the combo that helps deliver the club more consistently.  it may not reduce total dispersion but may improve total grouping.  

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

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I don't think anyone is saying that a fitting cures everything, nor that fittings don't work. I think the key is to know the data, how to use it, get a good fitting, AND work on your game. 

There is no quick fix to getting better at golf. 

Well, that isn't true. Play in scrambles. You will feel like you're incredible as long as you don't pay attention to how little your group uses your ball. 🤣

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1 minute ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

I once saw a guy report that HE had a personal best of 74 in his companies tournament.

I was impressed with it until he mentioned in an oh by the way thing, it was a scramble.  Two things wrong with that, counting a scramble as a personal best...and thinking 74 is a good scramble score....ha  

Wow.

Just...

Wow.

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6 hours ago, jddaigneault said:

I don't think anyone is saying that a fitting cures everything, nor that fittings don't work. I think the key is to know the data, how to use it, get a good fitting, AND work on your game. 

There is no quick fix to getting better at golf. 

Well, that isn't true. Play in scrambles. You will feel like you're incredible as long as you don't pay attention to how little your group uses your ball. 🤣

I think fitting went from being undervalued to overvalued in the past 10 years... 

I think they can be a great tool to make sure your using the right equipment, but I’m not confident that the clubs themselves will change dispersion a huge amount (short of buying the rocket launchers that create more dispersion in length).

my bag might have 8 new clubs in it, but I don’t really think new equipment is super important... I’ve become more fixated on having the tools I need for the shots I want to hit...

fitting is a part of that, and I know which shafts I get along with mostly from fittings... but it was only a part of the process for getting new stuff... 

 

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37 minutes ago, myherobobhope said:

I think fitting went from being undervalued to overvalued in the past 10 years... 

I think they can be a great tool to make sure your using the right equipment, but I’m not confident that the clubs themselves will change dispersion a huge amount (short of buying the rocket launchers that create more dispersion in length).

my bag might have 8 new clubs in it, but I don’t really think new equipment is super important... I’ve become more fixated on having the tools I need for the shots I want to hit...

fitting is a part of that, and I know which shafts I get along with mostly from fittings... but it was only a part of the process for getting new stuff... 

 

I think learning your swing, learning about equipment, fittings, lessons, practice, and playing are all necessary steps towards actually getting better at golf. Each plays an important role, but none of them are a magic bullet. 

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23 hours ago, cnosil said:

I think you can gather lots of info in three swings and I think any more the player adapts to the combo.   Distance, ball flight,  sequencing are are quick assessments.   I just think Dispersion is something that takes longer to evaluate

+1. Which is what I said in post #1. Club Champions 4 shots per head/shaft combo methodology can definitely work for distance, launch angle, spin, etc. It will not work for dispersion for 90% of us, no way. Ian did not say he could evaluate dispersion in 2 shots…

If you’re working on your game to establish your dispersion tendencies to factor into course management, most people want to see as many as 30 shots. 4 is not representative.

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1 hour ago, Middler said:

Which is what I said in post #1. Club Champions 4 shots per head/shaft combo methodology can definitely work for distance, launch angle, spin, etc. It will not work for dispersion for 90% of us, no way. Ian did not say he could evaluate dispersion in 2 shots…

If you’re working on your game to establish your dispersion tendencies to factor into course management, most people want to see as many as 30 shots. 4 is not representative.

Yep,  I have been agreeing with what you put in your first post. My position has changed as I have learned more about “fittings”. Depending on what you are trying to do there are different approaches that should be followed.  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :cleveland-small: 588 54-14, 58-12
Putter:  Bellum Winmore 787

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180

 

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1 hour ago, cnosil said:

Yep,  I have been agreeing with what you put in your first post. My position has changed as I have learned more about “fittings”. Depending on what you are trying to do there are different approaches that should be followed.  

I am sure that's true. IME Club Champion has one methodology, at least for a first time customer - maybe it's different if you're an ongoing customer. And the CC method (4 good shots with each head/shaft and on to the next) is probably generally effective for customers looking for more distance and/or optimizing launch angles - and that is what most customers are looking for. No fitter can judge dispersion with 4 shots, much less 2...for 90% of players. Yet there are a few here disputing that as well, though they don't specifically mention dispersion with their rebuttals.

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I think it is feasible for someone with a low handicap that also hits hundreds of balls a week to be able to tell in a few swings if something is working or not. Just by looking at the difference in handicaps by the posters in this thread and everyone else in the community, I can tell you that not everyone can tell within a few swings if something is going to work. Heck it takes some people a few shots just to find their swing. But putting this aside, there is just so much to getting everything right that works for you.

I will admit I am probably one of the least knowledgeable when it comes to shaft selection. It blows my mind reading some of the posts on shafts. I should make an attempt to learn more about kick points, weight, flexes, differences between manufactures and such. But I'm sure that that would lead me to doubt things I shouldn't or experiment with things I shouldn't change because it works.

But that's why I go to someone who knows. Let's hit them look at the data and tell me/ show me what looks best on paper.  Pick the best performing package and get the club there or elsewhere.  To many people try to self evaluate and achieve poor results. 

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I was looking for some skytrack data, but I think I screwed up the data set playing with it. But I was hitting 7 irons the other day and my dispersion was 12 yards (very good for me). 2 shots later it was above 35. 1 shot changed the whole data set significantly yes it was a small sample size but that 1 shot is very indictive of my game, bunch of good shots and then 1 or 2 that are off the planet. The fitter to fix that problem doesn't exist! Trust me I've looked. A good fitter can take those 15 shots and improve upon them, but it still won't help my dispersion number. I may leave the fitting with a dispersion that is the same or close to and still get a good fitting and improve my game. IMO a fitting is a 2 way street, you have to know your game and give that knowledge to the fitter so they can output what will help your game. Does that mean you have to be a low handicapper to benefit? Absolutely not. Adam Young talked about it some on the Sweet Spot that the vast majority of golfers regardless of handicap are consistent in what they do, whatever they do, they do it often. There are some outliers, myself being one, but for most everyone regardless of the handicap can benefit from a fitting in some degree. Are fittings perfect?  Of course not.  Are they going to fix your game? Nope. But they help ensure that the tools I use are correct for the job. 

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