Cost vs. Value - The Best Clubs Your Money Can Buy

[Tony Covey MGS]

We've got a new post up on the front page today. I think it's fair to say that it is unlike most anything we've ever done before. It's admittedly a long read, but I'd definitely love your feedback not only on the article itself, but as to whether or not you'd like to see more of the feature-style writing in the future.

 

You Have The Power To Demand Better

Almost inconceivably there are some of you who still haven't heard of Miura. Worse yet, there remain some who have heard of Miura, but can't see a degree past the cost. And why is that? Here's a theory. While you've been busy checking price tags you many not have even realized that big golf companies haven't simply taught you to spend less (but spend often), they've actually conditioned you to expect less.

 

Sure, big OEM clubs cost less than the so-called boutique brands, but unless you win some sort of contest, you'll quickly find out that even so-called “custom orders” have their limitations. Sure we can do a custom shaft upgrade. Just choose from these 5. Want custom grips? Absolutely…just pick from these 3..and no, we don't stock IOmic. Frequency matched shafts? Good luck. “Sorting is done by the shaft manufacturer, we just assemble them”. Custom ferrules? Anything you want…as long as it's black. As consumers, when we don't realize what's possible, too often we settle for what's on the rack...

 

 

[Read the Full Article]

[Maverickping]

Great article and one that is very true in all respects. I just recently bought a set (5-PW + the three wedges) of the LH CB all hooked up with the C-Taper shafts.

Everything about Miura spells craftsmanship. The one thing that was partially mentioned is, once you are a Miura player the company will treat you like gold. The distributor in Canada found out I was playing there irons and did something very nice and unexpected for me.

 

Like I mentioned to them I've found my irons unless they come out with something new for the LH crowd. Blades though they are enticing to say the least are not the right iron for me and my game.

 

Thank-you for your article, I felt like I was there with you.

[Kanoito]

T, I thoroughly enjoyed your writing. It's very detailed and it gives the opportunity to those who are not lucky enough to be there to believe it's almost real.

So I vote YES for more articles of this kind!

 

Now onto your article:

 

Since part 2 isn't up yet, I'll just ask about part 1.

 

You mention cost vs value. Let's put it into numbers. How much did you pay for that set of irons (cost)? How much can you gain/improve with them (value)?

I agree, perfection is priceless. But how much value can this perfection offer the average Joe? What would the value be if playing the Miuras worsened my HCP?

To me, good value would be a set of irons that either a) lower my score for a higher price or maintain my score for a lower price.

 

I think the article is a great chance to clarify the relationship between cost and value and how the increase/decrease will proportionally affect the other.

 

I certainly wouldn't mind playing badly if I got them for free! But if I had to pay 2-3 times the price of a regular set, they better work!

 

Did you get the chance to ask Josh or find out how fitters feel when a high handicapper comes into the store and asks for the best? Or does he have any experience regarding a bad player showing up on the course with a $3000 set to be made fun of by his partners? I mean, sure you play what makes you happy and what gives you confidence... but we would all be lying if we said we don't care what other people think.

 

Don't get me wrong! I got nothing against Miura... they are beautiful and I would love to own a set someday! I just wish there was a way to quantify the "value" for them.

 

Like I said, great article and hope you keep them coning!

[Tony Covey MGS]

T, I thoroughly enjoyed your writing. It's very detailed and it gives the opportunity to those who are not lucky enough to be there to believe it's almost real.

So I vote YES for more articles of this kind!

 

Now onto your article:

 

Since part 2 isn't up yet, I'll just ask about part 1.

 

You mention cost vs value. Let's put it into numbers. How much did you pay for that set of irons (cost)? How much can you gain/improve with them (value)?

I agree, perfection is priceless. But how much value can this perfection offer the average Joe? What would the value be if playing the Miuras worsened my HCP?

To me, good value would be a set of irons that either a) lower my score for a higher price or maintain my score for a lower price.

 

I think the article is a great chance to clarify the relationship between cost and value and how the increase/decrease will proportionally affect the other.

 

I certainly wouldn't mind playing badly if I got them for free! But if I had to pay 2-3 times the price of a regular set, they better work!

 

Did you get the chance to ask Josh or find out how fitters feel when a high handicapper comes into the store and asks for the best? Or does he have any experience regarding a bad player showing up on the course with a $3000 set to be made fun of by his partners? I mean, sure you play what makes you happy and what gives you confidence... but we would all be lying if we said we don't care what other people think.

 

Don't get me wrong! I got nothing against Miura... they are beautiful and I would love to own a set someday! I just wish there was a way to quantify the "value" for them.

 

Like I said, great article and hope you keep them coning!

 

I can't put a firm number on it because I don't know precisely what the upcharge would normally be for the grips and shafts on my irons, nor do I know what Josh normally charges for the custom work he's doing. If I had to guess, I'd say $1600-$1800. Basically 2x the going rate for a much less customized forged iron from a big OEM.

 

All your questions are good ones.

 

First, assuming you get custom fit for your Miuras (as the overwhelming majority of Miura customers do), then I must also assume that your play would improve as a result. Now certainly there could be exceptions. As much as Miura talks about the forgiveness of the Passing Points, for example, I don't think anybody is going to confuse them with PING K15s. So while a Miura fitter would no doubt provide you with the best fit, in truth, if a golfer needs more forgiveness than Miura can offer, it won't be an ideal fit.

 

As much as I believe that Miura makes the best product in golf, I can't say there is an iron in their lineup I could earnestly recommend to a beginner. Once you reach a certain ability level (sub 20 HC ballpark), then they should be in the discussion. And when you consider the other benefits that come from working with a skilled builder (one with access to sizable shaft inventories), then the finished product should measurably improve your game. When I put my new irons in to play, I don't expect a night and day change from what I have now, but truthfully, the finished product will be only slightly different from what's in my bag now. For most, the change would be more significant I would think.

 

As I said in the article, very rarely will one of Josh's customers go against his recommendations and purchase something that isn't a good fit. There are probably some who absolutely demand Miura (even when it might not be ideal), but if there's one thing I can say with certainty - Josh Chervokas lives and dies by his reputation. If a customer comes in asking for Miura and Josh determines for whatever reason that the customer not a good fit for anything in the lineup, he absolutely will do everything he reasonably can to put his customer into the better alternative.

 

Where cost vs value comes into play is admittedly a more complicated argument. I'm not sure there is a concrete value per stroke formula to be applied. Before I started writing for MyGolfSpy I believe I was like many of you. I always lusted after the latest and greatest. I bought a new driver every year, 3 sets of irons in 2 years, multiple putters. I'm sure it's a scenario many of you know all too well. When I think of the money I spent on irons (and more irons)...if I had just gone to a Miura fitter back then.

 

What I believe is that most people who put Miura irons in their bag will never want anything else. How much would the average golfer save if he only replaced his irons when they actually wore out, not simply because something new came out? Miura offers a more technically perfect product (that should have some value), most would say they feel better than anything else (that also has value), and I believe most who play them will never want to buy anything else - and over time, for equipment junkies like me, that's a tremendous savings.

 

Regarding what other people think; If the opinions of others are truly a concern for you, then Miura might not be ideal either. As knowledgeable as most here in our forums are, the majority outside these virtual walls still haven't heard of Miura (I'm working on it). I've had more than a few guys with TaylorMade, Callaway, and other big OEM irons in their bags roll their eyes at my Miuras (they think I'm playing no-name junk...cheap clones or something). It's somewhat comical, but as I hinted in the article, the industry as a whole has conditioned us to think a certain way, and it's very difficult to break people out of the mindset that bigger companies always make better products.

[Kanoito]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, T.

 

So can we safely assume, that a set of Miuras will last longer than a regular OEM set (ignoring the little club ho every single one of us has inside)?

In case they last about 1 or 2 seasons... what is the maintenance, rechecking lofts, lies, etc. cost of the old Miura set? Will it go for about $100-$200? Maybe $700 which is the equivalent of a new set of standard OEM set? Or maybe even more?

[GolfSpy WD]

You mention cost vs value. Let's put it into numbers. How much did you pay for that set of irons (cost)? How much can you gain/improve with them (value)? I agree, perfection is priceless. But how much value can this perfection offer the average Joe? What would the value be if playing the Miuras worsened my HCP? To me, good value would be a set of irons that either a) lower my score for a higher price or maintain my score for a lower price.

 

This

 

 

I think a very good comparison would be Wishon, who also uses a 5 step forging process and insists on proper fitting, but is a fraction of Miura's price. While I appreciated the article, I always get stuck on how much concrete benefit I'll receive. I've no doubt that Miura makes the best clubs out there, but the benefit between Miura and Wishon is probably immeasurably small. Miura's probably feel a bit better and are built to stricter standards, but is that worth the extra $1000-1500? That money could be spent on going to nice golf courses, getting lessons, buying other cool stuff, or maybe even feeding your kids.

 

The other point is Wishons (there are other brands out there, I just know Wishon better) can be upgraded 4 times for the cost of one set of Miuras, which leads to the question, if you upgrade every two years, are 6 year old Miuras better or as good as new Wishons?

 

I do agree that someone who replaces their clubs many times over a short period of time would probably come out even with Miuras, I just think there are more logical choices out there.

[Tony Covey MGS]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, T.

 

So can we safely assume, that a set of Miuras will last longer than a regular OEM set (ignoring the little club ho every single one of us has inside)?

In case they last about 1 or 2 seasons... what is the maintenance, rechecking lofts, lies, etc. cost of the old Miura set? Will it go for about $100-$200? Maybe $700 which is the equivalent of a new set of standard OEM set? Or maybe even more?

 

Not sure what you mean by last longer...if you mean durability, they're the same as anything else. Though I'm sure it happens, I don't personally know anyone who has worn out a set of irons. As far as lie/loft is concerned, again, costs are the same for Miura as anything else (going rate in the US is about $5 per club), While it's less of a concern with a cast club, it is an expense just about anyone playing a forged iron needs to consider.

 

One final note, should you decide to part with your Miura irons, resale value will certainly be higher as well.

[Tony Covey MGS]

This

 

 

I think a very good comparison would be Wishon, who also uses a 5 step forging process and insists on proper fitting, but is a fraction of Miura's price. While I appreciated the article, I always get stuck on how much concrete benefit I'll receive. I've no doubt that Miura makes the best clubs out there, but the benefit between Miura and Wishon is probably immeasurably small. Miura's probably feel a bit better and are built to stricter standards, but is that worth the extra $1000-1500? That money could be spent on going to nice golf courses, getting lessons, buying other cool stuff, or maybe even feeding your kids.

 

The other point is Wishons (there are other brands out there, I just know Wishon better) can be upgraded 4 times for the cost of one set of Miuras, which leads to the question, if you upgrade every two years, are 6 year old Miuras better or as good as new Wishons?

 

I do agree that someone who replaces their clubs many times over a short period of time would probably come out even with Miuras, I just think there are more logical choices out there.

 

Fair points. Of course if you're changing irons that frequently you're almost certainly doing more harm than good. Wishon makes a decent quality inexpensive product, and he certainly promotes custom fitting, but on tolerance and feel, and attention to detail, there is no comparison to be drawn. Granted, for "stock" specs they are about 1/3 the price of Miura. The thing is, each and every head that comes out of the Miura factory is hand inspected. It's a matter of personal pride.

 

To the foundries in China Tom Wishon and others are customers. It's his reputation on the line, not theirs, so close enough is good enough. And that's exactly how most golf companies expect you to think. I'm personally more inclined to spend 2x to get exactly what I'm supposed to get (and exactly what I want), than spend half as much on close enough - especially if it means I won't feel the urge to spend just as much next year...and the year after that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GolfSpy WD]

One final note, should you decide to part with your Miura irons, resale value will certainly be higher as well.

 

This is a very good point, a quick glance on ebay showed resale goes for about $600 for a set of used clubs.

 

Fair points. Of course if you're changing irons that frequently you're almost certainly doing more harm than good. Wishon makes a decent quality inexpensive product, and he certainly promotes custom fitting, but on tolerance and feel, and attention to detail, there is no comparison to be drawn. Granted, for "stock" specs they are about 1/3 the price of Miura. The thing is, each and every head that comes out of the Miura factory is hand inspected. It's a matter of personal pride.

 

To the foundries in China Tom Wishon and others are customers. It's his reputation on the line, not theirs, so close enough is good enough. And that's exactly how most golf companies expect you to think. I'm personally more inclined to spend 2x to get exactly what I'm supposed to get (and exactly what I want), than spend half as much on close enough - especially if it means I won't feel the urge to spend just as much next year...and the year after that.

 

I totally agree the cost is justifiable in terms of quality. I hear the same argument from my wife when she wants a designer purse . I would actually be more inclined to buy Miura for the reasons you list than a big name OEM where most of the cost is advertising (not justifiable IMO). My hope is my next set of sticks are Miuras in 5-7 years time. However, my main point is when viewed from a cold hard logical ratio of money spent to game improvement, it doesn't make much sense to spend 2k on clubs when there are "good enough" options out there for significantly cheaper.

 

Of course I've been barking up this tree for a while now and most people still pay for the big name OEM clubs, so I doubt anyone will listen to my opinion .

[Tony Covey MGS]

This is a very good point, a quick glance on ebay showed resale goes for about $600 for a set of used clubs.

 

I totally agree the cost is justifiable in terms of quality. I hear the same argument from my wife when she wants a designer purse .

 

It's funny...when it's my wife making the same points I'm making here I basically tell her she's full of crap.

[GolfSpy WD]

It's funny...when it's my wife making the same points I'm making here I basically tell her she's full of crap.

 

LOL

[Tha Living Legend]

Unfortunately, the big boys are doing their best to keep the mid-tier golf companies down. In my opinion it's working.

 

Not speaking directly about Miura, but I think we will see more and more of these mid-tier golf companies go the way of Ray Cook, Hogan, MacGregor, and countless others.

 

Empirical evidence from other industries shows us that golf equipment is headed to having 4 or 5 major OEM's and not much else. Obviously it's going to take a while to get there, but I believe you will see some popular brands fall in the next year.

 

It's not a good time to be a niche golf company.

[Kanoito]

The other point is Wishons (there are other brands out there, I just know Wishon better) can be upgraded 4 times for the cost of one set of Miuras, which leads to the question, if you upgrade every two years, are 6 year old Miuras better or as good as new Wishons?

 

Interesting. What does this "upgrade" consist of?

 

Not sure what you mean by last longer...if you mean durability, they're the same as anything else. Though I'm sure it happens, I don't personally know anyone who has worn out a set of irons. As far as lie/loft is concerned, again, costs are the same for Miura as anything else (going rate in the US is about $5 per club), While it's less of a concern with a cast club, it is an expense just about anyone playing a forged iron needs to consider.

 

Since you said a set of Miuras will keep you from changing irons every year... I was wondering if it was because of their longevity or another factor.

[GolfSpy WD]

Interesting. What does this "upgrade" consist of?

 

Upgrade = buy a new set of irons. A set of Wishons goes for roughly $500 for the forged variety, thus you can buy 3-4 sets over 6-8 years for the same price as Miuras. There's probably an additional charge for the fitting, I'm not sure if fitting is factored into Miura's price or not.

[Kanoito]

Upgrade = buy a new set of irons. A set of Wishons goes for roughly $500 for the forged variety, thus you can buy 3-4 sets over 6-8 years for the same price as Miuras. There's probably an additional charge for the fitting, I'm not sure if fitting is factored into Miura's price or not.

 

Ahhh that's what you meant. I thought Wishon would check lies, grooves, loft and do a new finish on the clubs Make old look new!

[Tyk]

Good job taking us through the whole Miura process! What a great experience to have.

 

One thing I guess I don't particularly understand the importance and emphasis you place on forged clubs arriving "on spec". I think it shows an attention to detail on Miura's part and its good, I just don't know that it really means much as far as the overall quality of the forging or the club.

 

What I'm saying is that I don't know that Miuras come out of forging any more "on spec" than say Mizuno irons do. I doubt they forge a head to be 2* upright or anything, they just adjust a head to order. Miura takes the time and effort to adjust them to perfection before shipping whereas perhaps Mizuno might not, but what difference does it make if they are adjusted by Miura/Mizuno or a clubfitter at home?

 

I actually see the importance more so with cast clubs that are resistant to adjustment than with forged irons that will need to be adjusted periodically throughout their usable lifespan anyway.

[Tony Covey MGS]

Good job taking us through the whole Miura process! What a great experience to have.

 

One thing I guess I don't particularly understand the importance and emphasis you place on forged clubs arriving "on spec". I think it shows an attention to detail on Miura's part and its good, I just don't know that it really means much as far as the overall quality of the forging or the club.

 

What I'm saying is that I don't know that Miuras come out of forging any more "on spec" than say Mizuno irons do. I doubt they forge a head to be 2* upright or anything, they just adjust a head to order. Miura takes the time and effort to adjust them to perfection before shipping whereas perhaps Mizuno might not, but what difference does it make if they are adjusted by Miura/Mizuno or a clubfitter at home?

 

I actually see the importance more so with cast clubs that are resistant to adjustment than with forged irons that will need to be adjusted periodically throughout their usable lifespan anyway.

 

Lie and loft are only part of the equation when we talk about being on spec. Most OEMs bend to custom specs at the factory, with Miura that responsibility falls to the fitter who will often have much tighter tolerances than an OEM will. As much as we'd like to think differently, the majority of clubs are still purchased off-the-rack (standard length, standard lie), and the average golfer has probably never considered that his lies and lofts might be off.

 

Other key specs that most people don't ever consider are things like head weight, balance, and the straightness of the kneck/hosel of the club. Are big OEMs grossly out of tolerance, mostly not, but again, I believe that a product should be as described, and shouldn't come with a disclaimer about manufacturing tolerances and what not. From what I've learned talking to club builders, balance is the one aspect that really sets one OEM apart from another. From what I've been told, Mizuno is the best of the big OEMs, but they're not perfect.

[RoverRick]

I really enjoyed this article and yes I would read more. I read it because I was in the market for a different set of irons. It seems to me that you had a really good fitter but I do not see how that differed than if you would have ended up with a set of Titleist (for example) irons. As far as choices go, they have four different heads, 23 different shafts from 6 different manufacturers, and 53 different grips. That is 4,876 choices. If you specify the loft and lie, I would think they were correct, when special ordering them. So, while I see that there are advantages to custom fit over buying off the rack it is not unique to Miura.

 

I have had a simular experience with Golfsmith's on a driver in 2008. Hopefully, you do not have the same experience I had at the time. The fitting went great. I ended up with a 907D2 with a UST Proforce V2 shaft and a Lamkin Torsion Control grip. We spent a lot of time a trying different heads and shafts and grips and I left there thinking I had the perfect driver for me. When I got to the course I could not hit it out of my shadow. I tried for a month, could not hit it. I was so disappointed. I took it back, and hit it on their monitor, and hit it great. I finally decided it was an indoor driver. But I sold it to a friend. And got a different driver. I later found out that the problem was me. When I was indoors, I swung one way, and when the roof was not over me, I swung a different way. I bought that same driver back a year later and played with it until it broke last year. I bought a 909D3 to replace it. I love this driver now.

 

That was not the fitter's fault nor was it Titleist's fault. However, I think Miura is getting a lot of the credit for your fit that should go to the fitter.

 

However, after reading your article it did influence me in my iron selection. When I bought my last new set of clubs, (AP2's) I absolutly fell in love with the looks of the ZM. I did not have the game for them. Last year I got a set of used set Callaway Prototypes from my club pro. And have been playing with them really well. I also got the matching Jaws series wedges.

 

The problem I have is the distance control with these wedges. They seem to go forever. Not always desireable in a wedge. They were great out of the rough but not so great the rest of the time when compared to my old Vokeys. For year I had a 30,35, 40, etc.. shot. Now with the Jaws I start at 60. Any thing less than that is a wild guess. So I went back to the Vokeys and since I have three matching wedges for the Protos, I decided to sell them with the irons. To replace them, I was all set to get the ZM's. The new Titleist MB's and CB's are not as pretty.

 

After reading your article, and the blades versus cavity section, I decided on the ZB instead of the ZM. I opted for something I could hit well all of the time not most of the time. ZB's are almost as pretty. Sort of like settling for Miss Texas or Miss California instead of Miss America. As far as custom fit, I will take them and get them adjusted if needed but I would rather do that after playing a few rounds. While my swing is much better that with the 907D2, it is not the same indoors as outdoors.

[Shambles]

Golfspy T,

 

Thank you for a very good description of your experience with the Miura fitting you were able to avail of. I'm persuaded that you have a very good chance at being the owner of a lifetime set and if that set does not serve you a lifetime, it will be your fault. Personally speaking, I believe a set of irons can out live their owners most times simply because very few golfers actually use their clubs often enough to actually wear them out regardless that they lose that new club crisp and shine fairly quickly. I see Miura's around me fairly often and if I thought they would serve me better I would have acquired a set long ago. They truly are well made.

 

 

Shambles

[fozcycle]

I am jealous.......and proud to see someone actually go for it!

 

These are georgeous.....I hit the Marumans at the PGA Orlando golf show a couple years ago and they were absolutely sweet. I am sure that these are as well.

 

Congrats......and give us some posts after you have used them awhile.

[Dave]

I don't see myself ever dropping that amount of coin on a set of irons. I've only ever bought 1 set irons brand new. Why, the 2nd market is great. Amazing how cheap a 2 months set of irons are. And #2, I'm not good enough to justify dropping that many $$ on a set of irons that aren't going to change my game.

[RoverRick]

I bought a new set of AP's when they came out. Did not go to the range, went straight to the course. On the sixth hole, I took the plastic wrapper off of the six iron, hit it from the fairway, and found a buried rock. It put a big old dent in my brand new club. Made me sick. Since then I can not justify spend that kind of money on something that I am intentionally going to stike the ground as hard as can. Besides, I have too much fun buying different clubs, shafts, whatever and altering my set.