Why Can't the LPGA Players Putt?

[jborchel]

I've been watching both tours for years and I'm puzzled as to why the girls can't putt. Lydia Ko and Inbee Park can but every other players that is on TV on Sunday can't make a birdie putt outside 5 feet. They most often don't get it within a foot on a 15 footer. They aren't very good chippers or bunker players either. There must be a reason. If the tour didn't set up the courses so they all had 7 iron to wedge in on the Par 4s they would score like in a US Open.

What is it?

Edited May 3, 2021 by jborchel

[goaliedad30]

Going for popcorn ....

[BIG STU]

5 hours ago, goaliedad30 said:

Going for popcorn ....

Naah it will not be that bad over here---- After all this aint WRX

[GolfSpy_APH]

I will fully admit before posting that I have hardly watched the LPGA, not because I don't want to but more because I live in EU and it can be harder to find. I listen to NLU and what they have to say on and it and have a interest in it, but just can't quite make the time to sit and watch a lot. With all that being said I went and did a bit of research and grabbed some screenshots from the PGA and LPGA SG sites to put up. From what I can tell yes there is a difference, but (again saying this without having watched much live) it doesn't seem to be huge and I wouldn't go as far as saying they can't putt I know they would do much better then myself. 
Here is what I found...

LPGA Average Putts per round top 5

PGA Averarge Per round Top 5

LPGA Average Putts per hole and GIR

PGA Tour average and top 5 per hole

So again yes there is a difference and I am sure I could dig deeper into the data, however as far as I can tell they are still darn good and maybe the PGA guys that are on top are just at another level?

[sixcat]

Historically, PGA Tour players average about one putt per round fewer than the LPGA average.  That small of a difference could easily be attributed, at least in part, to course conditioning.  The LPGA certainly don't get the seemingly unlimited budget the pampered f&@ks on the PGA Tour get.

Regardless, not one single member of this forum is staying within a dozen shots in a head-to-head match with anyone on the LPGA Tour!  If you think you can, you're either delusional, stupid or a troll.

[ejgaudette]

This is where the LPGA is hurt by not having strokes gained and shot link data. I have a feeling these starts might tighten up even more because we have no idea how long the first putts are or what clubs they are hitting into greens. Suffice to say personally I am sure they can putt circles around me.

[tchat07]

As someone who has had the privilege to be inside the ropes at LPGA events it is far less to do with an inability to putt "as well" and i would argue more to do with distance to the hole on average. Your average LPGA pro is taking a longer iron into most greens then PGA pros, which often leads to a further proximity to the hole. Add all of the holes up on distance to the hole and I would argue it makes sense for the increase in average putts per round.

[myherobobhope]

10 hours ago, jborchel said:

I've been watching both tours for years and I'm puzzled as to why the girls can't putt. Lydia Ko and Inbee Park can but every other players that is on TV on Sunday can't make a birdie putt outside 5 feet. They most often don't get it within a foot on a 15 footer. They aren't very good chippers or bunker players either. There must be a reason. If the tour didn't set up the courses so they all had 7 iron to wedge in on the Par 4s they would score like in a US Open.

What is it?

I haven’t watched enough lpga on tv to confirm my suspicions... but I’m willing to bet the coverage is different between the two tours... 

PGA coverage tends to show the best shots, so you see more long putts go in and they show less misses...

[Kenny B]

I watch the PGA, LPGA and EU tournaments.  Of the 3 tours, without any supporting stats and just my observations, I would say that the EU Tour players seems to be worst at putting.  I can't believe the number of putts that are left short; some woefully short from very good players.  I'm guessing it might be that the green speed is much slower than the PGA Tour on average, and that playing all over the world means that the speed varies quite a bit.  I suspect that the LPGA has similar issues as they are a more global game than the PGA Tour, and the PGA Tour likely has more influence over course setup.

[cnosil]

I think it comes down to whole gets shown on TV and understanding actual make percentages from each distance.   Players on the LPGA area phenomenal players and their scores reflect that.  I have been a walking scorer at my local LPGA tournament for over 10 years and can tell you they can spin their wedges and make putts.  

[sixcat]

1 hour ago, Kenny B said:

I watch the PGA, LPGA and EU tournaments.  Of the 3 tours, without any supporting stats and just my observations, I would say that the EU Tour players seems to be worst at putting.  I can't believe the number of putts that are left short; some woefully short from very good players.  I'm guessing it might be that the green speed is much slower than the PGA Tour on average, and that playing all over the world means that the speed varies quite a bit.  I suspect that the LPGA has similar issues as they are a more global game than the PGA Tour, and the PGA Tour likely has more influence over course setup.

Course conditions play a critical factor.  The PGA Tour plays on perfect conditions 99 times out of 100.  The European Tour and LPGA don't have the budgets to be able to do that.  But like you said, i don't have any supporting evidence.  Just a strong opinion based on common sense and years of watching.

[BMart519]

The Valspar this week played just over 7300 yards, the LPGA event played 6700... That is 600 yards different over roughly 36 tee/approach shots or 17 yards longer per shot for the guys. 

PGA average driving distance = 295.6, LPGA is roughly 260. The women are frequently hitting hybrids and occasionally fairway woods into par 4s which is virtually unheard of for the men. After an average drive with the course lengths above, a PGA player is roughly 18 yards closer to the hole than LPGA and hits it 3-4 clubs longer. The fact that putting numbers are even close when the women would be hitting 4-6 clubs longer into greens on courses in worse condition is extremely impressive. 

I watched the women's HSBC this weekend because it was on at night and it was great golf. Barely anyone uses blade putters which I found interesting. 

To make the distances closer, the LPGA should be on courses 1000 yards less than the PGA at a minimum. If you factor in driving distance and iron carry it should be closer to 1300 yards shorter to have similar approach clubs. This has been discussed a bunch recently after some of the course setups led to everyone shooting over par and concerns about growing the game because most people want to see everyone making birdies. Then you get some idiot 5 handicap and scratch golfers thinking they could make a cut in a women's event after watching them struggle. 

[myherobobhope]

32 minutes ago, BMart519 said:

The Valspar this week played just over 7300 yards, the LPGA event played 6700... That is 600 yards different over roughly 36 tee/approach shots or 17 yards longer per shot for the guys. 

PGA average driving distance = 295.6, LPGA is roughly 260. The women are frequently hitting hybrids and occasionally fairway woods into par 4s which is virtually unheard of for the men. After an average drive with the course lengths above, a PGA player is roughly 18 yards closer to the hole than LPGA and hits it 3-4 clubs longer. The fact that putting numbers are even close when the women would be hitting 4-6 clubs longer into greens on courses in worse condition is extremely impressive. 

I watched the women's HSBC this weekend because it was on at night and it was great golf. Barely anyone uses blade putters which I found interesting. 

To make the distances closer, the LPGA should be on courses 1000 yards less than the PGA at a minimum. If you factor in driving distance and iron carry it should be closer to 1300 yards shorter to have similar approach clubs. This has been discussed a bunch recently after some of the course setups led to everyone shooting over par and concerns about growing the game because most people want to see everyone making birdies. Then you get some idiot 5 handicap and scratch golfers thinking they could make a cut in a women's event after watching them struggle. 

Interestingly, I was looking up fairways hit and the lpga was about 10% ahead of the pga... 75 vs 85 for the top players...

I can’t imagine that women’s putting is measurably worse if you compared them apples to apples...  I’m sure Lou stagner has the data on it somewhere.

[cnosil]

16 minutes ago, myherobobhope said:

Interestingly, I was looking up fairways hit and the lpga was about 10% ahead of the pga... 75 vs 85 for the top players...

I can’t imagine that women’s putting is measurably worse if you compared them apples to apples...  I’m sure Lou stagner has the data on it somewhere.

Lou probably doesn’t have the data.  There is no shot link for the LPGA tour.  The statistics kept for the LPGA are 2 driving distance holes, fairways hit, greens hit, and putts.   Those numbers are often the opinion of a volunteer and I have heard some say it was close to the fairway or green so I gave it to them.  

[Kenny B]

1 hour ago, BMart519 said:

The Valspar this week played just over 7300 yards, the LPGA event played 6700... That is 600 yards different over roughly 36 tee/approach shots or 17 yards longer per shot for the guys. 

PGA average driving distance = 295.6, LPGA is roughly 260. The women are frequently hitting hybrids and occasionally fairway woods into par 4s which is virtually unheard of for the men. After an average drive with the course lengths above, a PGA player is roughly 18 yards closer to the hole than LPGA and hits it 3-4 clubs longer. The fact that putting numbers are even close when the women would be hitting 4-6 clubs longer into greens on courses in worse condition is extremely impressive. 

I watched the women's HSBC this weekend because it was on at night and it was great golf. Barely anyone uses blade putters which I found interesting. 

To make the distances closer, the LPGA should be on courses 1000 yards less than the PGA at a minimum. If you factor in driving distance and iron carry it should be closer to 1300 yards shorter to have similar approach clubs. This has been discussed a bunch recently after some of the course setups led to everyone shooting over par and concerns about growing the game because most people want to see everyone making birdies. Then you get some idiot 5 handicap and scratch golfers thinking they could make a cut in a women's event after watching them struggle. 

And yet the PGA Tour and LPGA Tour winners shot the same score relative to par... -17.  Impressive!

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, sixcat said:

Course conditions play a critical factor.  The PGA Tour plays on perfect conditions 99 times out of 100.  The European Tour and LPGA don't have the budgets to be able to do that.  But like you said, i don't have any supporting evidence.  Just a strong opinion based on common sense and years of watching.

I don’t watch a lot of euro golf especially compared to the lpga but I can’t think of any course that either tour played that wasn’t in top shape. There’s weather that plays a role in some bad course conditions like is seen at the Evian Championship.

Do you have any examples of either tour playing in less than ideal course conditions?

[myherobobhope]

38 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Lou probably doesn’t have the data.  There is no shot link for the LPGA tour.  The statistics kept for the LPGA are 2 driving distance holes, fairways hit, greens hit, and putts.   Those numbers are often the opinion of a volunteer and I have heard some say it was close to the fairway or green so I gave it to them.  

Yeah, the lack of shot link is silly...

The other side of the GIR being opinion is that means the first putt counts as a putt... so it would up the putt count. 
 

From a brief glance, lpga players hit more greens in regulation by about 7% (slightly more than one green a round) and have 1 more putt a round... I’d say there is some causation there... more greens in regulation means more putts on average...

[sixcat]

38 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I don’t watch a lot of euro golf especially compared to the lpga but I can’t think of any course that either tour played that wasn’t in top shape. There’s weather that plays a role in some bad course conditions like is seen at the Evian Championship.

Do you have any examples of either tour playing in less than ideal course conditions?

The event in Austria a few weeks ago immediately comes to mind.  The greens still showed significant evidence of having been recently punched.  Other parts of the golf course were in rough shape compared to what we are accustomed to on the PGA Tour.  Really shaggy bunkers, several sections just off the greens marked as ground-under-repair visible as players are putting.

You could also check out the two videos from Kenya earlier in the season or a video from Morrocco.  The course in South Africa that hosts Gary Players event is comical for a whole different set of circumstances.  You can hear all about that on The Shotgun Start.  

 

 

The course conditions on the LPGA Tour are a different sort of deal.  They are detailed at great length in this article.

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/03/16/lpga-golf-course-setups-womens-golf-pga-tour/

[sixcat]

To clarify the point a little.  The vast majority of the courses on the European Tour are phenomenal.  They are playing The Belfry next week.  That will be must-see-TV!  The BMW International in Germany, Irish Open, Scottish Open, BMW PGA and Dunhill Links are always fantastic.  I prefer them to any regular PGA Tour event not played at Riviera or Colonial.  Abu Dhabi and Dubai are great as well.

They just play a handful of places that make me scratch my head and wonder why even bother? 

[RickyBobby_PR]

35 minutes ago, sixcat said:

The event in Austria a few weeks ago immediately comes to mind.  The greens still showed significant evidence of having been recently punched.  Other parts of the golf course were in rough shape compared to what we are accustomed to on the PGA Tour.  Really shaggy bunkers, several sections just off the greens marked as ground-under-repair visible as players are putting.

You could also check out the two videos from Kenya earlier in the season or a video from Morrocco.  The course in South Africa that hosts Gary Players event is comical for a whole different set of circumstances.  You can hear all about that on The Shotgun Start.  

 

 

The course conditions on the LPGA Tour are a different sort of deal.  They are detailed at great length in this article.

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/03/16/lpga-golf-course-setups-womens-golf-pga-tour/

That article talks more about course setup and not really conditions. I agree with Annika and others who have talked about showcasing the LPGA members and their games. It’s an interesting topic because there’s courses that lexi and some of the longer hitters don’t use driver much because of the shortness of the holes and that helps the shorter members keep up and then on the other hand there’s the courses like last week at 6700 that hurts the shorter player as mentioned in the article

[sixcat]

17 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

That article talks more about course setup and not really conditions. I agree with Annika and others who have talked about showcasing the LPGA members and their games. It’s an interesting topic because there’s courses that lexi and some of the longer hitters don’t use driver much because of the shortness of the holes and that helps the shorter members keep up and then on the other hand there’s the courses like last week at 6700 that hurts the shorter player as mentioned in the article

Poor choice of words in explaining my original point.  Although, I have seen some LPGA courses in pretty rough shape in recent years.  Evian comes to mind.  But they are more isolated incidents as opposed to the bad conditions the European Tour plays once a month.  I think the new "strategic partnership" with the PGA Tour will help the European Tour.  At least I hope it does.

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 minutes ago, sixcat said:

Poor choice of words in explaining my original point.  Although, I have seen some LPGA courses in pretty rough shape in recent years.  Evian comes to mind.  But they are more isolated incidents as opposed to the bad conditions the European Tour plays once a month.  I think the new "strategic partnership" with the PGA Tour will help the European Tour.  At least I hope it does.

Evian is definitely one that stands out because no matter if it’s scheduled early in the season or later it seems to be wet and windy even when it’s not supposed to fe that season

[sixcat]

3 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Evian is definitely one that stands out because no matter if it’s scheduled early in the season or later it seems to be wet and windy even when it’s not supposed to fe that season

Weather issues are one thing.  Conditions due to uncooperative weather can't really be helped.  It just seems like Evian is doomed year in and year out!

I just think the LPGA could help themselves by setting up the courses to better showcase the talent the ladies have.  The 2019 British Open stands out to me.  Woburn is a terrific golf course, although not a links you'd expect for that event.  But it set up perfect to showcase the women's game.  And the women shined!  

[higherplane]

Putting statistics can be somewhat misleading period for just putting unless they add in length of putt.  That statistic is only available on the Men's tours.  Apolloshowl above is showing that the top women are missing about 1-1.5 putts per round more than the top men.  Very close and could be a result of greater average length of putt as others have stated.  Anecdotally, many of us get stomach hit watching Adam Scott hit two great shots to 6 ft and then miss, or Dustin Johnson a few years ago, or Keegan on Saturday.   It simply is not as much of a Venus-Mars scenario as it appears.                                

[RickyBobby_PR]

59 minutes ago, sixcat said:

Weather issues are one thing.  Conditions due to uncooperative weather can't really be helped.  It just seems like Evian is doomed year in and year out!

I just think the LPGA could help themselves by setting up the courses to better showcase the talent the ladies have.  The 2019 British Open stands out to me.  Woburn is a terrific golf course, although not a links you'd expect for that event.  But it set up perfect to showcase the women's game.  And the women shined!  

Agree

[jborchel]

The input from the posts above on my question have brought up some interesting points that I hadn’t thought of. My statement on their perceived deficiency is not statistics based but comes from years of watching every LPGA and PGA televised round since I retired in 1992. Except for the two that I mentioned they just don’t threaten the cup, whether its for a birdie or a par. They always come up short when they had to get it to the hole because of the situation. 

I think the one viewpoint of course/green conditions is a very good determining factor. However, the one season I played at Great Southwest GC in Dallas where the greens were like the PGA tour, 11+ speed, it was pure panic on every putt. It’s like putting on your garage floor. The LPGA greens are on average much slower but that should mean that they get it to or past the hole every time. And make  more putts then. But it doesn’t happen. This weekend watch every round for a while and you will see what I mean.

Another point was made about the difference in 2nd shot distance. Again, watch every round. The women hardly ever hit more than a 7 and usually 8 to wedge. They are very long and incredibly straight off the tee. By comparison the men are wild although much longer. The biggest difference is on the Par 5s where the men are usually hitting an iron into the green where the women are almost always hitting a fairway wood.

Chipping and sand play. I’m always amazed at how often the PGA guys get it up and down from off the green or out of the bunker. Part of that may be because you don’t see as many chips and bunker shots on the LPGA. When you are playing at that level and you hardly ever have more than an 8 iron in it’s hard to miss the green. That could definitely be why they aren’t as good on those shots. If you only miss a couple of greens every round then it will be tough to hone those skills under pressure.

I wish the ladies were more deadly. It would really make the rounds more exciting.

The European Tour. Right on about the conditions hurting the play, especially the putting. Hadn’t thought of that.

Edited May 4, 2021 by jborchel

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 minutes ago, jborchel said:

My statement on their perceived deficiency is not statistics based but comes from years of watching every LPGA and PGA televised round since I retired in 1992.

Perception can be misleading sometimes. A golf buddy of mine that got me started in the game for a long time had a perception that the pga pros made every putt and would get frustrated at his game because he was missing putts they were making. Then he learned that mostly shows made putts and the stats from ranges like 7-10’ weren’t really as high as tv makes them appear

[BMart519]

27 minutes ago, jborchel said:

I think the one viewpoint of course/green conditions is a very good determining factor. However, the one season I played at Great Southwest GC in Dallas where the greens were like the PGA tour, 11+ speed, it was pure panic on every putt. It’s like putting on your garage floor. The LPGA greens are on average much slower but that should mean that they get it to or past the hole every time. And make  more putts then. But it doesn’t happen. This weekend watch every round for a while and you will see what I mean.

Another point was made about the difference in 2nd shot distance. Again, watch every round. The women hardly ever hit more than a 7 and usually 8 to wedge. They are very long and incredibly straight off the tee. By comparison the men are wild although much longer. The biggest difference is on the Par 5s where the men are usually hitting an iron into the green where the women are almost always hitting a fairway wood.

Green speed has zero impact on optimal strategy for pace of putt or how far past the hole the target is. Read up on Scott Fawcett's DECADE program or anything that talks about capture speed for the hole. No good player aims to get every putt past the hole (unless they are a poor putter) except within maybe 15-20 ft. The best comment in this post refers to the fact LPGA players average roughly 1 more GIR than PGA players and 1-1.5 more putts per round which substitutes 1 greenside chip for a putt. 

In general, green speed is going to correlate strongly with the maintenance budget of the course as well as the climate/grass type. The higher maintenance budget to keep greens 11+ likely drives more rolling of the greens -> flatter surfaces. It's pretty straight forward that the slower the green, the longer the grass, which will inevitably lead to more variation on ball roll and reduce make rates. (Depth of depression the ball rests in, etc.)

Average LPGA driving distance in 260, 8 iron distance in 145. In the ANA Inspiration, 5 par 4s were over 400 yards so 5/10 (50%) approach shots on par 4s average longer than 8 irons. Roughly 3/10 or 30% of all par 4s over the past month were over 400 yards on the LPGA. Let alone par 4's where they opt not to hit driver. 

Average LPGA 3W is 220-230, so any Par 5 above 500 is borderline unreachable for the field average unless assisted by downhill, wind, etc.  The longest players can get there in two after a good drive provided they aren't into a strong wind. 

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, jborchel said:

The input from the posts above on my question have brought up some interesting points that I hadn’t thought of. My statement on their perceived deficiency is not statistics based but comes from years of watching every LPGA and PGA televised round since I retired in 1992. Except for the two that I mentioned they just don’t threaten the cup, whether its for a birdie or a par. They always come up short when they had to get it to the hole because of the situation. 

I think the one viewpoint of course/green conditions is a very good determining factor. However, the one season I played at Great Southwest GC in Dallas where the greens were like the PGA tour, 11+ speed, it was pure panic on every putt. It’s like putting on your garage floor. The LPGA greens are on average much slower but that should mean that they get it to or past the hole every time. And make  more putts then. But it doesn’t happen. This weekend watch every round for a while and you will see what I mean.

Another point was made about the difference in 2nd shot distance. Again, watch every round. The women hardly ever hit more than a 7 and usually 8 to wedge. They are very long and incredibly straight off the tee. By comparison the men are wild although much longer. The biggest difference is on the Par 5s where the men are usually hitting an iron into the green where the women are almost always hitting a fairway wood.

Chipping and sand play. I’m always amazed at how often the PGA guys get it up and down from off the green or out of the bunker. Part of that may be because you don’t see as many chips and bunker shots on the LPGA. When you are playing at that level and you hardly ever have more than an 8 iron in it’s hard to miss the green. That could definitely be why they aren’t as good on those shots. If you only miss a couple of greens every round then it will be tough to hone those skills under pressure.

I wish the ladies were more deadly. It would really make the rounds more exciting.

The European Tour. Right on about the conditions hurting the play, especially the putting. Hadn’t thought of that.

I think you perceptions are a bit off for both the LPGA tour and PGA tour.  
 

neither PGA or LPGA players are always past the hole.  Just like with the other clubs in their bags they have a dispersion pattern.  Having that pattern past the hole every time would lead to long second putts.  Having seen snippets of shotlink data from the PGA tour shows this to be true.  Watching televised golf does not not give you a perspective for the entire field.  The players on TV any particular week are being show because they are the contenders.

not sure what you are defining as very long off the tee, but they average about 240-250 off the tee.  Many are 30 yards shorter than that and hit longer irons and hybrids into greens on the longer par 4s.  The perceived wildness is because they generally hit the ball farther meaning that if a 2 players a hit the ball 1* offline the player hitting it 300 will be farther offline than the one hitting it 250.  
 

look at the stats from 2020,  the top GIR was 14 per round but middle of the pack gets you to 10-12 which means there are a lot of short game shits being played.  Typical reasoning is that men are typically stronger so they can swing faster and generate more spin on short game shots.  

unfortunately TV and the announcers paint the players as being better than they really are.  They are good but if you can dig into the numbers younger a better picture on how they play  

Yearly, I attend and volunteer at a local LPGA tournament and in the past have attended and volunteered at Symetra, Champions, and PGA events.  I watch the Monday qualifier, practice rounds, and observe play on specific holes so I see more than what is broadcast on tV.   All of these players are good but LPGA players don’t always leave putts short.  Those putts are probably more memorable because your immediate reaction is they should have gotten that putt to the hole.  

[THEZIPR23]

2 hours ago, jborchel said:

The input from the posts above on my question have brought up some interesting points that I hadn’t thought of. My statement on their perceived deficiency is not statistics based but comes from years of watching every LPGA and PGA televised round since I retired in 1992. Except for the two that I mentioned they just don’t threaten the cup, whether its for a birdie or a par. They always come up short when they had to get it to the hole because of the situation. 

I think the one viewpoint of course/green conditions is a very good determining factor. However, the one season I played at Great Southwest GC in Dallas where the greens were like the PGA tour, 11+ speed, it was pure panic on every putt. It’s like putting on your garage floor. The LPGA greens are on average much slower but that should mean that they get it to or past the hole every time. And make  more putts then. But it doesn’t happen. This weekend watch every round for a while and you will see what I mean.

Another point was made about the difference in 2nd shot distance. Again, watch every round. The women hardly ever hit more than a 7 and usually 8 to wedge. They are very long and incredibly straight off the tee. By comparison the men are wild although much longer. The biggest difference is on the Par 5s where the men are usually hitting an iron into the green where the women are almost always hitting a fairway wood.

Chipping and sand play. I’m always amazed at how often the PGA guys get it up and down from off the green or out of the bunker. Part of that may be because you don’t see as many chips and bunker shots on the LPGA. When you are playing at that level and you hardly ever have more than an 8 iron in it’s hard to miss the green. That could definitely be why they aren’t as good on those shots. If you only miss a couple of greens every round then it will be tough to hone those skills under pressure.

I wish the ladies were more deadly. It would really make the rounds more exciting.

The European Tour. Right on about the conditions hurting the play, especially the putting. Hadn’t thought of that.

Watching PGA Tour on TV is just watching a highlight reel. You miss the vast majority of the true game. I don't watch golf but my assumption being that the LPGA doesn't show as many shots or have it honed down to key golfers so you see more of what they are doing vs PGA.